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Seems Brennan is not alone


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quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

I'm sure they do.

If some of them (the veterans no doubt) have decided amongst themselves to ignore the coach & do it there own way, as some said happened in the 2007 Gold Cup, why bother making these comments to the media? It accomplishes nothing but the two possibilities mentioned earlier - either the team loses and the players can be blamed for creating further turmoil & distractions, or the team wins and the players who have taken shots at the coach for not knowing what he's doing look foolish.

You are assuming that the situation is still a normal type of situation, but i can tell you that it is not. There is absolutely nothing to lose by these comments. This is not a distraction to anyone, this is not news. These comments were offered to lend support to the players' decision, and to humiliate a coach who has made a gutless and selfish decision to carry on collecting a paycheque when he knows he is not wanted or needed.

If the team wins, you can thank the players.

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quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan

You are assuming that the situation is still a normal type of situation, but i can tell you that it is not. There is absolutely nothing to lose by these comments. This is not a distraction to anyone, this is not news. These comments were offered to lend support to the players' decision, and to humiliate a coach who has made a gutless and selfish decision to carry on collecting a paycheque when he knows he is not wanted or needed.

If the team wins, you can thank the players.

quite right....well said

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quote:Originally posted by VPjr

You've got a future in politics G-L. You seem to read what you want to read and ignore the parts that don't suit your argument.

How many times have I personally said that the players have performed poorly and I can only name one player (Klukowski) who has exceeded my expectations for him? In this thread it's got to be multiple times.

So why did you voluntarily put yourself into the apologist category? I didn't mention any names, nor did I refer to you or any of your posts, but somehow you felt I was talking about you, and now you say that I was ignoring your comments. No, I read them, I just wasn't referring to them, I've known right from the start that you've disagreed with the timing of these comments. I answered your question about the use of the term apologists because you asked it directly of me, that doesn't mean I was referring to you.

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No surprise, but I back the players and I think the timing is irrelevant. The players have needed to take a stand against the CSA for a long time and I am not going to criticize them now.

In the past, the MNT was the most that many a Canadian player could ever hope for, and they certainly weren't going to rock the boat by pointing out the obviously problems - and who would have listened, anyway. But guess what, the complaints were always there. I know and have played with and against MNT players and I value their opinions about soccer in Canada over people on this board who have probably never played sports at a high level and do not understand what is involved. Some of you seem to think these guys are your “bitches” or something.

Now we have players in the biggest leagues in the world and they see what is needed to succeed, yet they are continually hamstrung by their own federation. I think the players gave it a shot, but it quickly became obviously that it wasn't going to work – and I don't think they were planning an “out” all this time. I keep hearing the term, “professionals.” Does this mean mindless automatons who must get out an the field and play for Canada just to make “you” happy, regardless of the situation? These guys are being professional...they are bringing their professionalism with them and saying, “look, this is not up to international standards, we need better to compete.” The lack of professionalism is coming from the CSA. I gaurantee you that the players want to make it to the WC more than anything, the real question is, does the CSA?

Now, for all you people who want to whine about the players, what are you doing? What makes you so special? Are you sacrificing anything for Canada, seeing as you want to be all nationalistic about the players. Do you ever do anything that could adversely affect your job or family life for something as simple as a game? No, didn't think so, so drop the ultra nationalistic garbage. The players aren't playing for a paycheck or fame, so why do you think they are coming? Just to jog around the field? They are coming to play for Canada, so give it a rest.

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quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan

You are assuming that the situation is still a normal type of situation, but i can tell you that it is not. There is absolutely nothing to lose by these comments. This is not a distraction to anyone, this is not news. These comments were offered to lend support to the players' decision, and to humiliate a coach who has made a gutless and selfish decision to carry on collecting a paycheque when he knows he is not wanted or needed.

If the team wins, you can thank the players.

If the team wins I will be thanking the players. If they lose they should be held responsible. That at least is a lot more consistent than thanking the players if they win and blaming it all on the coach if they lose.

In any event, this must be a very unique situation indeed if abandoning your teammates & publicly ridiculing the coach in the middle of a World Cup Qualifying campaign is deemed to be a rallying cry to save the team, presumably by inspiration-from-afar only since both players in question aren't even going to be there in person for the all important game. If these moves were made in an attempt to get rid of the coach well in advance of the game I could maybe see the twisted logic of it (but still wouldn't agree with it), but that didn't happen.

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quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

So why did you voluntarily put yourself into the apologist category? I didn't mention any names, nor did I refer to you or any of your posts, but somehow you felt I was talking about you, and now you say that I was ignoring your comments. No, I read them, I just wasn't referring to them, I've known right from the start that you've disagreed with the timing of these comments. I answered your question about the use of the term apologists because you asked it directly of me, that doesn't mean I was referring to you.

Fair enough...i apologize for taking a slightly hostile tone.

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quote:Originally posted by Paddy

No surprise, but I back the players and I think the timing is irrelevant. The players have needed to take a stand against the CSA for a long time and I am not going to criticize them now.

In the past, the MNT was the most that many a Canadian player could ever hope for, and they certainly weren't going to rock the boat by pointing out the obviously problems - and who would have listened, anyway. But guess what, the complaints were always there. I know and have played with and against MNT players and I value their opinions about soccer in Canada over people on this board who have probably never played sports at a high level and do not understand what is involved. Some of you seem to think these guys are your “bitches” or something.

Now we have players in the biggest leagues in the world and they see what is needed to succeed, yet they are continually hamstrung by their own federation. I think the players gave it a shot, but it quickly became obviously that it wasn't going to work – and I don't think they were planning an “out” all this time. I keep hearing the term, “professionals.” Does this mean mindless automatons who must get out an the field and play for Canada just to make “you” happy, regardless of the situation? These guys are being professional...they are bringing their professionalism with them and saying, “look, this is not up to international standards, we need better to compete.” The lack of professionalism is coming from the CSA. I gaurantee you that the players want to make it to the WC more than anything, the real question is, does the CSA?

Now, for all you people who want to whine about the players, what are you doing? What makes you so special? Are you sacrificing anything for Canada, seeing as you want to be all nationalistic about the players. Do you ever do anything that could adversely affect your job or family life for something as simple as a game? No, didn't think so, so drop the ultra nationalistic garbage. The players aren't playing for a paycheck or fame, so why do you think they are coming? Just to jog around the field? They are coming to play for Canada, so give it a rest.

Agree 100%

Some of comment in this thread are really pathetic.Bad timing,bad timing,when is good timing for you guys?

Some of you have always some lame excuse to do nothing,but than again always come here to cry and complain about CSA.It is easy to be hero and start talking when is to late and our WCQ is done.Their critic has more weight now then when is finished,and that probably will be tonight anyway.

If we lose tonight none of you bitching here against JB and DeRo should make any comments against DM and CSA in a future.

FIRE MITCHELL and SACK THE CSA !!!!

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No worries Dino. We are all worked up because we all care so much. To answer Paddy's question, that's what makes us so "special" as to dare criticize the players for what we perceive to be mistakes that are making things worse - we love our country and we love soccer and so much want them to succeed. That's as "special" as we need to me, nothing more, nothing less.

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I am part of those who support the players speaking out regardless of their timing. I am also part of the majority who feels Mitchell should have been removed a few games back. The thing as I see it is that to expect the CSA to take any action regarding Mitchell is just wishful thinking. So I believe in the power of the players themselves to cause action to be taken by expressing their feelings and views of his coaching, the CSA and some choices. Had the CSA taken action when they should have, we probably would not be facing such dissent by players. I expect there will be more to come. It is ironic that the CSA is very quick to take action against coaches for unrelated soccer matters, but when it comes to their mandate of soccer, nothing is done.

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quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

No worries Dino. We are all worked up because we all care so much. To answer Paddy's question, that's what makes us so "special" as to dare criticize the players for what we perceive to be mistakes that are making things worse - we love our country and we love soccer and so much want them to succeed. That's as "special" as we need to me, nothing more, nothing less.

There are acceptable levels criticism and I think those levels, in regards to the players, have been breached. It is one thing to not like a player, think a player isn't playing well, etc, but the accusations and expectations now are bordering on the ridiculous. And no, I don't think those criticism leveled at the CSA are excessive - it has been a long time coming and they are fully deserving. Also, the harshest critics of the CSA on this board are ready to step up and do something about it.

Anyway, as always, I will be watching the game tonight, and if we lose I am going to be curious what your final thoughts are once we are officially out of the running (I can't quite tell what you've had for breakfast yet, so I think you have been holding back).

Enjoy the game

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quote:Originally posted by Richard

I think the players lost hope when Mitchell's appointment was announced. The rot didn't just set in starting at the top, it was introduced by the CSA. The players gave Mitchell a chance to show what he could do this time around and he blew it, I don't blame the players for finally speaking out frankly. Before the whole campaign imploded this group was lauded as Canada's best ever. They deserves better than a head coach whose coaching career pinnacle was as the not very successful former coach of the Vancouver 86ers. The last U-20 campaign hardly qualifies as a coaching success for the man.

Richard.. what ever the hell the new meds are you need to go to your doctor and thank her or him for finding the right combo..

I mean you .. have just done the most amazing recovery from the haze of "Hooper Hate" to embracing players when the speak out.

Damn that is impressive.

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quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

No worries Dino. We are all worked up because we all care so much. To answer Paddy's question, that's what makes us so "special" as to dare criticize the players for what we perceive to be mistakes that are making things worse - we love our country and we love soccer and so much want them to succeed. That's as "special" as we need to me, nothing more, nothing less.

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quote:Originally posted by The Ref

I am also part of the majority who feels Mitchell should have been removed a few games back. The thing as I see it is that to expect the CSA to take any action regarding Mitchell is just wishful thinking.... Had the CSA taken action when they should have, we probably would not be facing such dissent by players. I expect there will be more to come. It is ironic that the CSA is very quick to take action against coaches for unrelated soccer matters, but when it comes to their mandate of soccer, nothing is done.

The CSA were the ones who put Mitchell in place, leaving aside the question of having the will to take any action, do they have anyone on the board capable of recognizing that this was a problem that needed to be adressed after what happened in Montreal. To change now is action for actions sake because the problem is too far gone to remedy.

Although I disagree with the timing of the comments, it's either too late or too early. I would put Brennan and DeRo in different categories. At least Brennan had the decency to remove himself from future selections before saying his piece, DeRo is still selected for Wednesday in Edmonton, is he supposed to show up, and if so how can Mitchell put him on after DeRo has said publicly that his appointment was a mistake?

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I propose a moratorium on this topic until after the match, at least. For now, we all want Canada to win. Tonight, and Wednesday, please and thank you. This thread is a distraction, just like distrust between Mitchell and the players is a distraction to them.

If you don't want Canada to win in the next 2 matches, kindly leave this board.

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Too many extremes here. On the one hand, the constant critics of the CSA, are taking the view that the players comments reaffirm their own view that its all the CSA's fault and that their appointed coach is to blame. The assumption, the players are right and know whats best and are right right in tune with the wishes of the fans. Problem with this view is that Simoes ( who was favoured by the same people) didn't fair any better than Mitchell. And, there are awful lot of stories around the globe of misconduct and incompetence of FA's including the world Champions whereby their head just escaped facing prison on match fixing related raps. And do you honestly think that the success of other nations in the region is a reflection of greater competence on the part of their soccer associations?. Lets ask the Trinnis if their happy with Jack ( who has not payed them) or the Hondurans if they think that their FA is a model for superior managemt. What about Guatemala who beat us last time? Once you are on the pitch, its eleven versus eleven. If the national body have such great impact on performance, how did Italy even win the WC

The other extreme view, attacks the players for merely expressing their viewpoints and frustration with situation. The thinking being that they shouldn't be expressing their views to the media and, if the mood is sour in the dressing room, we the fans should not have to know about it. And that, if we don't know about it will just go away. Problem is, I always thought that more media coverage is what we always wanted and that ultimately media coverage is good for the sport. This includes wanting to be informed about things like the mood on the team and what the players are thinking. Furthermore, its two of the better players over the past 10 years who have expressed their thoughts. Players who have performed well in Gold cups and are consistent starters at their club sides. Both ARE DOMESTIC BASED and were on the MLS all star game alongside talent like Beckham, Cooper, Donovan, Blanco etc. Funny but many of the others with fewer caps, have never done anything noticeable, who are on the downside of their careers and/or who play overseas in environment that we have never of, have been strangely silent. So are we suggesting that we should be applauding and supporting the latter ones and condemning former. Its the local players who spoke up and yet since they are the ones who spend more time in Canada and will have to hear it from people, you would logically think that these are the people who care the most. Plus, there is nothing to suggest, from everything that has been known, that these are bad apples.

So here is a third view. Maybe both views are right and both are wrong. Both seem to think we were too good to not advance but maybe, just maybe, we didn't have the horses to begin with. Maybe there are too many players on the downside of their careers, stagnant in their development, coming off of down years, and/or perhaps not of international quality. For proof, just look at games again and see the kind of treatment the opposition gave to Julian DeGuzman and you will note that it pretty obvious that they knew that if they could neutralize him, there was no one else who could hurt them or warrant their respect. Secondly, If the players don't like a coach what the hell are are they waiting for to make change. Especially if the criticism is coming from players who, combined, have been involved and committed to the program the program for over 10 years. And, why is the coach ignoring known Canadian/North American based talent, some have who have recently gone into Honduras and won, in favor of talent whom he has probably never seen in action week in week out. He picks players to players to start whom he has probably seldom seen and in some cases have not dressed from their clubs for along time, but sits a consistent starter who is in mid season form.

There is a very evident consistency in results here over the past three WCQ campaigns. Yet there have been three different coaches, the CSA has been headed up by totally different people and yet players like Brennan and Dero have come back to play when call upon. So it cant be the fault of : the coaches, the CSA, nor the players level of commitment and dedication of players who live here. But what we do know is that Honduras has a player like Suazo and and player like Guevara to complement him whereas we only have Deguzman. We also know that the Jamaican keeper didn't let in a bad goal whereas ours did.

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Is being a Voyageurs means you are a player agent? Is being a group of fans means you have to act like an union and protect the players no matter what they do?

What about the "If you don't support the war you aren't supporting the troups" rhetoric that we're seeing in this thread?

It's ironic that people who are asking the CSA to act professionaly aren't able to act like "serious soccer nation" fans would do and condemn some of the players action in MTL after the game or just acknowledge the obvious mentality problem in our players? At least, people like G-L, M.A., Grizz or me are able to acknowledge the fact that the CSA messed up and that DM is far from being a Marcelo Lippi.

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quote:Originally posted by VPjr

I stop reading after that. If you can't understand the difference between women's and men's soccer in this country, I'm not going to discuss with you.

I fully understand the difference between men's and women's soccer

Well, you surely didn't show it with that poor analogy.

Historically, our women's teams have rarely miss tournaments. Our WNT has qualified to every WC since 1995 and has only missed the first edition in 1991 when CONCACAF had only one entry (USA). The same goes for our women's youth teams, they've qualified every time. This is apple and orange with what the men's are facing in CONCACAF competition.

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quote:Originally posted by loyola

Is being a Voyageurs means you are a player agent? Is being a group of fans means you have to act like an union and protect the players no matter what they do?

What about the "If you don't support the war you aren't supporting the troups" rhetoric that we're seeing in this thread?

It's ironic that people who are asking the CSA to act professionaly aren't able to act like "serious soccer nation" fans would do and condemn some of the players action in MTL after the game or just acknowledge the obvious mentality problem in our players? At least, people like G-L, M.A., Grizz or me are able to acknowledge the fact that the CSA messed up and that DM is far from being a Marcelo Lippi.

If the "mentality" of the players was exclusive to this qualifying round, then you'd be correct. Unfortunately, this is just history repeating. The players (past/present) aren't all from the same gene pool, are they? What is it then that gets them to this state?

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quote:Originally posted by Paddy

If the "mentality" of the players was exclusive to this qualifying round, then you'd be correct. Unfortunately, this is just history repeating. The players (past/present) aren't all from the same gene pool, are they? What is it then that gets them to this state?

This is far from demonstrating your point. As far as I'm concern the fact that this is not the first time might be something proving the players have an attitude problem...

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quote:Originally posted by loyola

This is far from demonstrating your point. As far as I'm concern the fact that this is not the first time might be something proving the players have an attitude problem...

Ever work for a company with a bad boss, and people leave because of said, bad boss. Or, the bad boss can't motivate his workers, so productivity goes down. Or, the bad boss is an idiot and everyone knows it. Do the workers have an attitude problem if they complain or leave?

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quote:Originally posted by Paddy

Ever work for a company with a bad boss, and people leave because of said, bad boss. Or, the bad boss can't motivate his workers, so productivity goes down. Or, the bad boss is an idiot and everyone knows it. Do the workers have an attitude problem if they complain or leave?

I could make a similar analogy with bad and very influencable workers, not ready or motivate to work who are working for a bad boss...your analogy was poor and didn't help your point at all.

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