Seems Brennan is not alone

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by Whither Canada

Funny, they had enough heart and talent to make it through to the Finals tournament.

What happened to it once they got there? Did it just go away by itself? Or was it coached out of them.

You are kidding right? They didn't qualified since we were the host.

For the record, I think last year U-20 edition had enough talent to qualify out of CONCACAF but not the talent to compete at the World Cup level against opponent like Austria and Chile. Look at where their players are playing now compare to us, night and day my friend...

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Nonsense. Coaching Canadian U20 team to Canada's best finish ever in a World Cup at any level would be considered the pinnacle of his coaching career, as any knowledgeable Canadian soccer fan should know.

He had 1 pretty good tournament and 2 really, REALLY bad ones. If his one good result is the pinnacle of his career, how do you judge the two bomb outs?

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Nonsense. Coaching Canadian U20 team to Canada's best finish ever in a World Cup at any level would be considered the pinnacle of his coaching career, as any knowledgeable Canadian soccer fan should know.

He had 1 pretty good tournament and 2 really, REALLY bad ones. If his one good result is the pinnacle of his career, how do you judge the two bomb outs?

[Vancouver Fan]

I'm curious to know what Brennan and De Ro feel Mitchell could have done differently to get better results.

I'm sorry but there are only so many proven managers available to coach Canada. Simoes might have been a good fit but it didn't exactly work out for Jamaica. At some point, if things don't go according to plan the entire organization is to blame.From the players on up. It is a team game after all.

[Vancouver Fan]

I'm curious to know what Brennan and De Ro feel Mitchell could have done differently to get better results.

I'm sorry but there are only so many proven managers available to coach Canada. Simoes might have been a good fit but it didn't exactly work out for Jamaica. At some point, if things don't go according to plan the entire organization is to blame.From the players on up. It is a team game after all.

[nolando]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

And even if you are going to make these comments while your team is still alive....make them right after the loss to Mexico when there is still time to change things prior to the last three games. Or is the argument of the apologists in this thread going to be that nobody in the media was going to listen to the players then either?

Agreed. Totally. Make no mistake - I HATE Dale Mitchell as our coach. H A T E. HATED him from the start. Hated the idea when it was even just a rumour. But there was and still may well be a future time to voice frustrations over his initial hiring (which seems to be DDR's biggest beef), and that time is NOT NOW.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

And even if you are going to make these comments while your team is still alive....make them right after the loss to Mexico when there is still time to change things prior to the last three games. Or is the argument of the apologists in this thread going to be that nobody in the media was going to listen to the players then either?

Why are some deemed apologists for the players because some of us don't agree with your revulsion over the timing of the comments?

I do agree that all these negative comments should have been made within days after the loss to Mexico. I would have been happier, that's for sure.

[superbrad]

What makes me sick to my stomach is the fact that some or many of the players have clearly given up any hope of qualifying - even when its still in their means to do so. - One game at a time. Tonight will be ugly. A win would be an absolute miracle. When you go in expecting to lose......you lose.

[sting]

I hate to say it but I have to agree with them. If they don't speak now while the attention is

on the games, no one will listen later when we are knocked out. Some of these players won't be

around next qualification stage (age) and they want it known that Mitchell is the reason why

Canada won't qualify. Hart had these guys playing well at the Gold Cup. We were all excited

about this team. Mitchell comes in and crashes it. Sure you can argue that some players are

not playing well. I believe it is because of where Mitchell has them playing as well as the system

he has them playing. Hart showed these guys can play great. Mitchell is stopping this from occuring.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

He had 1 pretty good tournament and 2 really, REALLY bad ones. If his one good result is the pinnacle of his career, how do you judge the two bomb outs?

Are you for real???

First, give him some credit to qualify us out of CONCACAF and doing that by beating the host of our group both times (USA and Honduras). Ask youself how many coach in Canada qualified a men's team for 2 WC in a row???

Second, of course I agree that 2007 was a failure but when I look at the 2 tournaments where we crashed out in the first round and the opponent we met (specialy Italy, Colombia, Chile and Austria) I'm not sure it was reasonable to expect us to get to the 2nd round. We had much less talent than the other teams in our group (even Syria was good enough to surprise Italy in 2005 something that we would've never done). And if you are to say that it's Mitchell job to select the players, you have to tell us who he did ignored for those 2 tournaments (I can only nade Jakovic for 2005).

I think it's completly wrong to qualify 2005 as a failure. Getting to a WC for one of our men's team is always a good result, something we should be proud of. 2007 is a failure but I doubt many coaches in the world would've qualified us for the second round....we were so weak skill wise, it was crazy.

[CanadasBest]

I'm sorry I have to against the grain here.

I fully support any player that is not happy with the current robot we have on the bench. Isn't DeRo the player rep to the CSA? What he is saying, he is saying on behalf of the whole team and is basically saying that at 6:30PM Pacific tonight the players do not want Dale Mitchell on the bench.

Why wait until after Saturday? It's today that change needs to take place.

You guys are shooting the messenger.

[Vic]

Doesn't really matter what happened years ago. Coaches are hired and fired in pro leagues for what they do today. Underachieve and you're looking for another job. Part of the job title. All professional coaches know it, plan for it, and even agree with it. I think the only comment being made here is Mitchell was a bad choice. The players, and most of the posters here, disagreed from day one but no one let 'er rip or was up in arms. People waited it out. And the fact that a few people here disagree with the timing is because they don't have the player's understanding that the lady has already sung and left the building.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by Vic

Doesn't really matter what happened years ago. Coaches are hired and fired in pro leagues for what they do today. Underachieve and you're looking for another job. Part of the job title. All professional coaches know it, plan for it, and even agree with it. I think the only comment being made here is Mitchell was a bad choice. The players, and most of the posters here, disagreed from day one but no one let 'er rip or was up in arms. People waited it out. And the fact that a few people here disagree with the timing is because they don't have the player's understanding that the lady has already sung and left the building.

2 players out of the squad understand that???

What about the 18 players who are in Honduras at this time??? They better think otherwise.

If the players had complained before it all started on August 20th or even in June, I would've had more sympathy but at this point, a fringe player and our biggest disapointement are speaking out against the coach??? WTF???

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

Are you for real???

First, give him some credit to qualify us out of CONCACAF and doing that by beating the host of our group both times (USA and Honduras). Ask youself how many coach in Canada qualified a men's team for 2 WC in a row???

Second, of course I agree that 2007 was a failure but when I look at the 2 tournaments where we crashed out in the first round and the opponent we met (specialy Italy, Colombia, Chile and Austria) I'm not sure it was reasonable to expect us to get to the 2nd round. We had much less talent than the other teams in our group (even Syria was good enough to surprise Italy in 2005 something that we would've never done). And if you are to say that it's Mitchell job to select the players, you have to tell us who he did ignored for those 2 tournaments (I can only nade Jakovic for 2005).

I think it's completly wrong to qualify 2005 as a failure. Getting to a WC for one of our men's team is always a good result, something we should be proud of. 2007 is a failure but I doubt many coaches in the world would've qualified us for the second round....we were so weak skill wise, it was crazy.

I guess, by those standard, Pellerud is a coaching genius then because he always got the women to their WC.

Yes, Mitchell's teams qualified. That is an accomplishment. It's not easy feat. Also, yes, the teams they were drawn against in '05 and '07 were pretty tough. Can't argue with you.

However, its what you do at the dance that matters, in my opinion, and his teams have not played to their potential or exceeded expectations since 2003. That's 5 years.

Fruthermore, I don't just judge the record becasue records can be deceiving. I judge the way the team played. In 2003, the team competed hard. I was impressed. In 2005, I thought the team was generally unimpressive but it was a youngish squad so i didn't give it much thought. In 2007 they were pathetically bad, regardless of the competition. New Zealand entry in last year's U20 WC had just as weak a team (talentwise), maybe weaker than Canada, but that team fought hard. Our team looked listless and unready to play. The talent Dale had at his disposal wasn't the greatest but it looked to me like a team that did not play with a lot of desire. Some of that has to be pinned on the players but Dale has to take some of the blame too.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

I guess, by those standard, Pellerud is a coaching genius then because he always got the women to their WC.

I stop reading after that. If you can't understand the difference between women's and men's soccer in this country, I'm not going to discuss with you.

[Vic]

Yeah, the players all know it. They're bright enough to know they're not going to win 3/3 and in Honduras and Kingston after getting 1 point from the first 3. And even if they did perform a miracle, it's probably still not enough. Do I think the players are going to play their asses off in those games? Hell YES! But that, and agreeing with what's being done to them are two completely different things.

[The Beaver]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

I think the players lost hope when Mitchell's appointment was announced. The rot didn't just set in starting at the top, it was introduced by the CSA.

I think Richard's nailed this on the head. His credentials--or lack of credentials aside--Mitchell was doomed from the beginning. The CSA said they were hiring one bloke--Simoes--then backed out and went for Mitchell, and though they've every right to pick their coach, the flip-flopping does not look good at all. Further, the optics suggest that the CSA cheaped out on the Mitchell appointment, that Mitchell was a poor second choice to a coach with international experience, which is what many of the players likely wanted (a coach like Beenhakker or others).

Oh, and not to sound like Don Cherry, but didn't I predict that of the other player dissenters--along with Brennan, McKenna and Stalteri--DeRo would be one of the next to come forward? It is the "old" guys, the "old" guard that is most upset, though i wouldn't be surprised if some of the new generation are upset with Mitchell, too.

DeRo and Brennan have shown no class. Also, to their defense, they've just seen their dream of making the World Cup nearly disappear forever.

[BrennanFan]

No No No. You guys have it wrong. This is not sabotage. The timing is perfect.

You think the players don't talk to eachother? DeRo is the true spokesman of the team. He speaks for everyone. This was calculated, and for a reason.

HE IS TRYING TO SAVE THE TEAM. The coach-player situation has completely AND OPENLY broken down. No one is listening to Dale! This is just another way the players are telling Dale to BACK OFF, WE'RE DOING IT OURSELVES.

DeRo is sticking up for the team and the Players when the need it most. GODDAMMIT Vs, WAKE UP!

Who do we support, the CSA or the Players? This is what THEY ALL think is the way to go. The first 3 games was the Mitchell way. It didn't work. They wanted him fired. Didn't happen. Now they are taking matters into their own hands like they should.

We need to support the players. This is the MOST IMPORTANT TIME TO BACK THE PLAYERS.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

I stop reading after that. If you can't understand the difference between women's and men's soccer in this country, I'm not going to discuss with you.

I fully understand the difference between men's and women's soccer

I also fully understand that a coach is judged by what they've done recently and Dale hasnt done a damn thing. 2003 is ancient history.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan

You think the players don't talk to eachother? DeRo is the true spokesman of the team. He speaks for everyone. This was calculated, and for a reason.

Bingo...glad you said it because if I had said it, I'd be called all sorts of less than flattering names.

[youllneverwalkalone]

I won't bash Mitchell in yet another thread. Something about a dead horse. I don't know a single Voyageur who would have protested if Mitch was fired after the Jamaica draw. Here we have consensus. Funny though that another point where there was consensus was that our manager, whoever it may be, just needed to put the best players on the pitch. Let's admit, as Voyageurs, we were dead wrong. We need the best TEAM on the pitch, as has been pointed out elsewhere. In this thread, some are still giving DM is due for calling our "best" players. But we all highly overrated their quality and, personally, I have a lot more respect for Holger and even Yallop for having the balls to leave certain guys out of the team who weren't buying into their programme. Given what we've learned in the last 10 years, I would have no problem with Holger being given a long-term contract. We are not good enough to play attacking football with our so called "best" players. We need to defend in an organised manner, focus on set-pieces, and put the best TEAM on the pitch. Holger was good on all counts. Perhaps he could be supplemented with a Latin U-17/U-20 manager because I couldn't give a toss whether we win another match at these levels if we can't translate those results to the MNT. And for the record, I never thought DDR was a "professional." Professionals don't turn down EPL contracts to stay in MLS. End of story.

[CoachRich]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

I think the players lost hope when Mitchell's appointment was announced. The rot didn't just set in starting at the top, it was introduced by the CSA. The players gave Mitchell a chance to show what he could do this time around and he blew it, I don't blame the players for finally speaking out frankly. Before the whole campaign imploded this group was lauded as Canada's best ever. They deserves better than a head coach whose coaching career pinnacle was as the not very successful former coach of the Vancouver 86ers. The last U-20 campaign hardly qualifies as a coaching success for the man.

Well said Richard!!!

Looking thru this thread, I'm really surprised to still hear folks say we need an international coach for the MP Seniors. I'm surprised as the CSA doesn't have the $ for an international coach or director & I thought that was common knowledge.

Only way the CSA are going to get the extra dollars for an international coach or director is to kill other programs. How can the CSA do that if they have no $ & the coming financials are going to be brutal once again. How bad, well they are looking for another $4 from the kids.

Good of the players to speak out as that is the the quickest way to bring about change w/ the CSA. No confidence vote from the MP & WP players & it's end of story for the CSA. Support the players who speak out as they are trying to bring about change but it's a all or nothing situation once the players decide to speak out.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

Why are some deemed apologists for the players because some of us don't agree with your revulsion over the timing of the comments?

Because that's exactly what has happened, people are bending over backwards with some of the lamest excuses to apologize for the actions of certain players which are virtually indefensible. I'm not sure what it's going to take for the players to get criticized in the media and take some responsibility. The only one to do it is Paul James. If Mitchell continues to be held out in the media & by most fans not on this board (which is all that I've seen) as solely responsible for failure we'll just continue to repeat the same mistakes with the same mentality.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan

You think the players don't talk to eachother?

I'm sure they do.

If some of them (the veterans no doubt) have decided amongst themselves to ignore the coach & do it there own way, as some said happened in the 2007 Gold Cup, why bother making these comments to the media? It accomplishes nothing but the two possibilities mentioned earlier - either the team loses and the players can be blamed for creating further turmoil & distractions, or the team wins and the players who have taken shots at the coach for not knowing what he's doing look foolish.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Because that's exactly what has happened, people are bending over backwards with some of the lamest excuses to apologize for the actions of certain players which are virtually indefensible. I'm not sure what it's going to take for the players to get criticized in the media and take some responsibility. The only one to do it is Paul James. If Mitchell continues to be held out in the media & by most fans not on this board (which is all that I've seen) as solely responsible for failure we'll just continue to repeat the same mistakes with the same mentality.

You've got a future in politics G-L. You seem to read what you want to read and ignore the parts that don't suit your argument.

How many times have I personally said that the players have performed poorly and I can only name one player (Klukowski) who has exceeded my expectations for him? In this thread it's got to be multiple times.

I highly doubt I'm alone in being a) disgusted with DM for the job he's done and the lack of leadership he's shown, pissed off the CSA put him in the job in the first place because he's not cut out for the job and c) disappointed that the players did not rise to the occasion and pull out at least 1 win in 3 games to give us a semblance of hope going into today's game. Most people here agree that the players carry blame.

However, I won't apologize for being very happy that players have started to speak out. I'd love to hear more of the same, even at halftime of tonight's game would suit me fine. i think dissent is warranted and I applaud it. Sure, the timing could have been better, but not because speaking out now hurts the team's chances tonight...I've already written off this campaign so it doesn't bother me. I just wish they would have spoken out loudly after the Honduras game or, at worst, the Mexico game. It's not like they needed 3 weeks to reflect. But am I upset that Jim and Dwayne chose to speak out now? Nope...I'm happy because the wall of silence might start crumbling now (probably 2 decades too late but late is better than never)