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Does DM stay if we make the HEX (a "what if")


Paddy

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^ The only reason he should be dumped (even if he gets us to the Hex) is if the prevailing sentiment in the locker room is that the players cannot/will not continue to play for him.

Otherwise, if you hire a dude to get you to the Hex and he does what you asked him to do, you've got to stick with him, like him or not.

Results matter--nothing else.

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If Mitchell makes the Hex we give him the benefit of the doubt and he gets to try to qualify for the World Cup.

If we don't make the World Cup he's done regardless of this hypothetical tiny miracle.

If Mitchell makes the World Cup this go around we should take out a full page add in the National Post and we publicly apologize for doubting his coaching ability. It's a pretty safe guarantee when you think about it, and not to mention it's win-win.

I for one am not going to stand sitting around for another 4 years with the possibility that we may be good or not good enough to get to the world cup under an suitable coach.

I don't think most of the players nor most of our Voyageurs want to see Dale Mitchell in charge of this team.

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quote:Originally posted by gwallace76

If Mitchell makes the Hex we give him the benefit of the doubt and he gets to try to qualify for the World Cup.

JUDAS!!!...I was gonna bring rice crispy squares to your place and everything.

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If we get to the Hex he should stay. That's his job and even if he's gone at it in a terrible way, if we're there he's done what he came to do.

I think he shouldn't be head coach after qualification or WC, for reasons like his relationship with the locker room, man management, and tactical awareness.

It takes the right manager to find a balance with success in his situation. At club level in Europe I see many great managers who have won trophies not work out at certain clubs. Jose at Chelsea is a very recent example of issues in the club forcing out a winning manager. In another way, Newcastle fans support a fairly unsuccessful Keegan (also pushed out internally) not because of actual titles but because he understands, he inspires, and he's popular. I don't think he's won anything except promotion with Fulham, Man City and Newcastle. Robson had a great record in the past and was possibly as succesful or more than Keegan but wasn't admired nearly as much. You need someone who can win. or you hope for that but if they don't fit in or can't work with the system (ie. available players, media, public) it wont last no matter the results.

If Squizz's great post says anything to me it's this: there are plenty of managers in the sea. We need to keep searching for a match after WCQ, because it's not Mitchell.

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If we get to the Hex he should stay. That's his job and even if he's gone at it in a terrible way, if we're there he's done what he came to do.

I think he shouldn't be head coach after qualification or WC, for reasons like his relationship with the locker room, man management, and tactical awareness.

It takes the right manager to find a balance with success in his situation. At club level in Europe I see many great managers who have won trophies not work out at certain clubs. Jose at Chelsea is a very recent example of issues in the club forcing out a winning manager. In another way, Newcastle fans support a fairly unsuccessful Keegan (also pushed out internally) not because of actual titles but because he understands, he inspires, and he's popular. I don't think he's won anything except promotion with Fulham, Man City and Newcastle. Robson had a great record in the past and was possibly as succesful or more than Keegan but wasn't admired nearly as much. You need someone who can win. or you hope for that but if they don't fit in or can't work with the system (ie. available players, media, public) it wont last no matter the results.

If Squizz's great post says anything to me it's this: there are plenty of managers in the sea. We need to keep searching for a match after WCQ, because it's not Mitchell.

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The sad thing is that we WERE good enough to qualify, but the CSA together with Mitchell managed to screw the team and players alike. Nothing has changed in the last 30 years and nothing will change in the foreseeable future. At least not until we have a new federation structure with competent people and a system of accountability.

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The sad thing is that we WERE good enough to qualify, but the CSA together with Mitchell managed to screw the team and players alike. Nothing has changed in the last 30 years and nothing will change in the foreseeable future. At least not until we have a new federation structure with competent people and a system of accountability.

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Guest speedmonk42

If we get to the hex, it is because I killed that chicken last night in a ritual sacrifice.

Not because of Mitchell.

If we get to the Hex, it is 'thank you very much' now lets find a coach.

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Guest speedmonk42

If we get to the hex, it is because I killed that chicken last night in a ritual sacrifice.

Not because of Mitchell.

If we get to the Hex, it is 'thank you very much' now lets find a coach.

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Guest speedmonk42
quote:Originally posted by gwallace76

If Mitchell makes the Hex we give him the benefit of the doubt and he gets to try to qualify for the World Cup.

If we get to the Hex, it isn't going to BE because of Mitchell.

So no, we do not keep him.

Unless you can clearly show me tactically how and why what he did got us there in those three games, he goes.

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Guest speedmonk42
quote:Originally posted by gwallace76

If Mitchell makes the Hex we give him the benefit of the doubt and he gets to try to qualify for the World Cup.

If we get to the Hex, it isn't going to BE because of Mitchell.

So no, we do not keep him.

Unless you can clearly show me tactically how and why what he did got us there in those three games, he goes.

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quote:Originally posted by Loud Mouth Soup

It's settled then.

loyola is Dale Mitchell.

True. I quit the board now that you know who I am.

Seriously, I just believe the players are being exonerated of any blame for this debacle. Just imagine the newspapers and the fans in France or England if they learned their star player went into a club dancing the same night of a loss in acrucial european or WC qualifier. They would get nuts (i even remember Craig Forrest telling a story about having problems with Ipswich fans after he was caught in a bar after an old division two or one loss, imagine a WC qualifier....). So while everyone go after DM I prefer bashing the players because I feel it's the best thing we can do to push them.

I often read V's suggesting that DM would be fire in any serious soccer nation. Let me remind you that our players wouldn't get any love like they do here in any serious soccer nation....and who's responsible for that? The Voyageurs. While we have little to no control on the CSA we have a lot of control on the pressure we can put on our players.

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yeah but no real organization would hire a coach who didn't record a single win or a goal in a major fifa tournament on home turf for that national team and promote him to senior national team coach. We're talking CSA here! The players showed us what they can do, and with this guy at the helm, he is the one calling the shots.

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How could we sack him if he gets to the Hex? Hell, the entire dimension of qualifying changes again.

I've always said I would give him the full rotation. I still think that. But a loss Saturday and I a lil' 2am meeting btw Mitchell and the CSA in the hotel would be fully justified.

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Maybe JB's public criticism of Mitch is exactly what Mitch needs to truly understand his situation. And as I see it his situation is he's got to get his players playing as though their lives depend on it. Because in a WC sense they do. And in the employment sense his life does as well.

Whatever he's been doing to this point isn't enough. It hasn't worked, and he needs to find something that does. And he has to understand the urgency of finding that solution. Cause if he doesn't, he's meat. After his history with the U20s, after JBs mouthing off publicly, and his own words it'll be very hard for Mitch to find himself shielded by a CSA security blanket. And it won't be the players fault or the Voyageurs fault if he gets the chop, loyola. It will be his own fault.

He couldn't bring the players to perform at the level we all expect. By inspiration, intimidation, wit or bribery. He couldn't get them to bring it. That is the managers job. His job. His job is to make "it" work and he hasn't.

And if Mitch seems to be getting the brunt of the anger here's the thing. Our player pool is finite. Maybe 30 bodies deep, max. FIFA rules and the reality of our sporting traditions have seen to that. But our coaching pool is infinite.

There are an army of coaches out there with a far superior pedigrees to Dale Mitchell to be had on Planet Earth and 99% of them are affordable even by CSA standards.

When it comes to coaches our flexibility, our options, are just soooo superior. FIFA leaves it up to us to have whoever we want. We don't have that luxury when it comes to players.

If we miss The Hex someone is going under the bus. Missing The Hex should not be an option. Group of Death be damned, with this squad of players when it came time to hire any potential coaching candidate who didn't flat out promise to deliver the BoD The Hex they should have been immediately disqualified from the position.

So, as I see it even if we recover and make The Hex I may be surprised but not especially impressed. Mitch can still save himself, but making The Hex alone won't be enough for me at this point.

And if we don't make The Hex someone disposable is going to be to blame. At least enough to blame that they'll be paying the price. The coach or the men who hired him.

And from where I sit, quite rightly.

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Exactly Cheeta.

I don't know where we're getting the idea that the players are not being scrutinized either.

Onstad has sure had his fair share of scrutiny for that embarassing mistake. He's taking a step back thanks to the scrutiny.

I just don't beleive in scrutinizing players for the personal things they do after games on their own time.

If this was a "serious soccer nation" the night out would have gotten in the press you're right. I don't think that would be a bad thing for sure. But Onstad would have needed a police escort out of the stadium and worst case would have received death threats and the like in the aftermath of the Jamaica game if this was a "Serious Soccer Nation". (And I know no one here is advocating this kind of hooliganism, i'm just using it as an extreme example of over the top scrutiny and fanatacism)

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quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

Maybe JB's public criticism of Mitch is exactly what Mitch needs to truly understand his situation. And as I see it his situation is he's got to get his players playing as though their lives depend on it. Because in a WC sense they do. And in the employment sense his life does as well.

Whatever he's been doing to this point isn't enough. It hasn't worked, and he needs to find something that does. And he has to understand the urgency of finding that solution. Cause if he doesn't, he's meat. After his history with the U20s, after JBs mouthing off publicly, and his own words it'll be very hard for Mitch to find himself shielded by a CSA security blanket. And it won't be the players fault or the Voyageurs fault if he gets the chop, loyola. It will be his own fault.

He couldn't bring the players to perform at the level we all expect. By inspiration, intimidation, wit or bribery. He couldn't get them to bring it. That is the managers job. His job. His job is to make "it" work and he hasn't.

And if Mitch seems to be getting the brunt of the anger here's the thing. Our player pool is finite. Maybe 30 bodies deep, max. FIFA rules and the reality of our sporting traditions have seen to that. But our coaching pool is infinite.

There are an army of coaches out there with a far superior pedigrees to Dale Mitchell to be had on Planet Earth and 99% of them are affordable even by CSA standards.

When it comes to coaches our flexibility, our options, are just soooo superior. FIFA leaves it up to us to have whoever we want. We don't have that luxury when it comes to players.

If we miss The Hex someone is going under the bus. Missing The Hex should not be an option. Group of Death be damned, with this squad of players when it came time to hire any potential coaching candidate who didn't flat out promise to deliver the BoD The Hex they should have been immediately disqualified from the position.

So, as I see it even if we recover and make The Hex I may be surprised but not especially impressed. Mitch can still save himself, but making The Hex alone won't be enough for me at this point.

And if we don't make The Hex someone disposable is going to be to blame. At least enough to blame that they'll be paying the price. The coach or the men who hired him.

And from where I sit, quite rightly.

What a load of crap.

First, the fact your acknowledging the players needs a good coach to motivate them for a crucial WCQ is troublesome to me. It shows to me the players have some kind of attitude problems. Add to that the different comments about the stadiums, surface, friendlies quality (when we can't beat SA B team or CR at home...), it seems our players aren't focus on the qualification. It should be automatic for them, but no, they need DM to be there all the time (specially when you consider that most of those comments happened in between MNT activities when the players are with their clubs).

Second, I,ve never ever suggested DM shouldn't be fired if we fail to make the Hex, where did I do that? The same goes for the CSA, I've never said they shouldn't be blame for the whole situation and the DM hiring (which I think is in part contributing to the players attitude problems).

Our players attitude is the main problem and they've proven it with some ackward intervention in the media and some stupid behaviours off the field. Of course, DM is in part responsible for this to happen but we're speaking of grown men, not an U-17 NT, pro footballer who shouldn't need a coach to make them responsible.

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quote:Originally posted by gwallace76

Exactly Cheeta.

I don't know where we're getting the idea that the players are not being scrutinized either.

Onstad has sure had his fair share of scrutiny for that embarassing mistake. He's taking a step back thanks to the scrutiny.

I just don't beleive in scrutinizing players for the personal things they do after games on their own time.

If this was a "serious soccer nation" the night out would have gotten in the press you're right. I don't think that would be a bad thing for sure. But Onstad would have needed a police escort out of the stadium and worst case would have received death threats and the like in the aftermath of the Jamaica game if this was a "Serious Soccer Nation". (And I know no one here is advocating this kind of hooliganism, i'm just using it as an extreme example of over the top scrutiny and fanatacism)

Agree about Onstad, but for rare exception he's been the only one who has been blame here.

As for the rest, I'm not calling for us to follow our players but when they are going out in a bar and people are recognizing them, I,m not sure it's still in their privacy. If you are going out in public, live with the consequences...

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quote:Originally posted by loyola

Our players attitude is the main problem and they've proven it with some ackward intervention in the media and some stupid behaviours off the field. Of course, DM is in part responsible for this to happen but we're speaking of grown men, not an U-17 NT, pro footballer who shouldn't need a coach to make them responsible.

Loyola, you are right on target. These guys are supposed to be professionals and they act like kids. They didn't want to play on FieldTurf, and they tied a team with beer leaguers in the lineup.

They wanted to play on turf, they got their wish and choked there too.

Their post game parties have been announced on this site before the games have been played. I don't know about you but if I tied a team I should have beat and then choked a lead that almost eliminates us from WCQ, I wouldn't be in the mood to party.

Some of these guys need to take a real good look in the mirror and should be pushing Mitch to make room under the bus.

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