Eleven Issues Facing MLS

[Obinna]

I think what JohnTV does is a great thing, and I hope he keeps up his fight against the media. I love hockey and all but i'm tired of it being jammed down our throats, even during summer. I truley believe that popularity and exposure are controlled by the media.

Also, I would love to see a Canadian soccer league but it will never happen, and I agree with Richard that we are fourtunate to have MLS. I remember about 6 or 7 years ago when you were laughed at for wearing an MLS jersey. Now I see kids at university wearing TFC shirts. Imagine in 10 years when we hopefully have Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, and Ottawa? With the profile of MLS on the rise, I hope the MLS becomes the NHL of summer for Canadians.

[john tv]

Thanks Obama I will vote for you anytime.It is all about that media. They make you or brake you.

Ultimately we need our own pro league.We have enough towns,villages and cities to equal that TFC excitement.MLS is just the big eye opener.

I am just concerned about the guys that are running it. After that disaster at the All Star game I became very concerned and following that disaster with that 700 b money grab makes me wonder even a lot more.Should we be affiliated with these yo yo's. I think we can do better on our own. We are bowing to their practices and in fact even the RIM guys can attest to this. I believe we are dealing with loosers anyway.

[SthMelbRed]

MOD EDIT

Inappropriate comment</u>

[john tv]

MOD EDIT

Inappropriate comment

[Juby]

quote:Originally posted by AvroArrow

If MLS needed such a low salary cap to make the league economically feasible during the first years of its existance, how low would the Canadian cap have to be in order survive, due to the fact that we do not have as many high population centres as the US does?

And will anyone come out to watch a team with such low payrolls? There is not much interest in the "top" soccer leagues in the provinces right now. I don't think dressing it up a bit and calling it Canada's #1 soccer league will change that.

I would assume the opposite, no salary cap so teams can be as small as they want.

edit: not to say you can't be fairly small but with base number alot of teams may want to even the score (even though they can't afford it) on a team that could probably really make something of itself by going over the cap.

[chuphone]

A Canadian soccer league just won't work. It's been tried and failed. Assuming that just because 20,000 people show up to a MNT game here in Edmonton means that many will show up to a league game in a Canadian league is spurious. Not even 10 years the Edmonton Aviators started play and barely made it through one year. Their crowds were in the 1000-2000 range. Regardless of the TV deal (and make no mistake about it, this would be a tough sell for any network), the people just won't go. Canadian cities will vie for an MLS side because like it or not, MLS is the big name in soccer in the US & Canada. It's a (moderately) successful league with the potential for a franchise like TFC.

[Juby]

quote:Originally posted by chuphone

A Canadian soccer league just won't work. It's been tried and failed. Assuming that just because 20,000 people show up to a MNT game here in Edmonton means that many will show up to a league game in a Canadian league is spurious. Not even 10 years the Edmonton Aviators started play and barely made it through one year. Their crowds were in the 1000-2000 range. Regardless of the TV deal (and make no mistake about it, this would be a tough sell for any network), the people just won't go. Canadian cities will vie for an MLS side because like it or not, MLS is the big name in soccer in the US & Canada. It's a (moderately) successful league with the potential for a franchise like TFC.

that's rather poor logic, because it failed before it will fail again. And who expected it to be filling a 20 000 seat stadium? we would not be building a La liga or Serie A, we'd be making an A-League or like a more obscure european development country. 1 000 - 2 000 fans is only a problem if your stadium is bigger then like 2 500, otherwise its perfectly successful

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by Eric

Exactly, a burden to MLS american fans and players.

Please explain how we are a burden.

Toronto FC has completely reshaped MLS' approach to expansion. Seattle and Philly, the next two expansion teams, have been encouraged to foster the same sort of hardcore, grassroots support that TFC is enjoying. Already established teams are also becoming more open to catering towards this type of fan, instead of only focusing on soccer moms and their kin.

Not only that, but TFC has been declared one of the (if not the) best expansion team launch in North American sports by a prominent sporting publication. The team made loads of money from the get go, has shown the rest of the league how it's done in terms of getting real fans and atmosphere, and play in its own stadium.

Burden, indeed.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Juby

that's rather poor logic, because it failed before it will fail again. And who expected it to be filling a 20 000 seat stadium? we would not be building a La liga or Serie A, we'd be making an A-League or like a more obscure european development country. 1 000 - 2 000 fans is only a problem if your stadium is bigger then like 2 500, otherwise its perfectly successful

But what happened since the time it failed and how are things any different today? Its easy to make a statement like you did ( ie.: " just because it failed before, there is no reason to believe it will happen again") if you ignore the important factors and base on blind faith or wishfull thinking.

The factors that killed leagues and clubs in the past: Undercapiltalization, poor support, lack of infrastructures, lack of corporate sponsorship, etc, are still there today. So the solution is to build something small that operates at a small level. But we already have that with the CSL. How could changing the colour of the uniform and or team name make any difference?

[Bill Ault]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

The factors that killed leagues and clubs in the past: Undercapiltalization, poor support, lack of infrastructures, lack of corporate sponsorship, etc, are still there today.

A voice of reason rises above the din... thanks Free Kick.

1. There is no corporate interest in a Canadian League - period. The people that are involved at the corporate level would not look at soccer until MLS came around and the FOUR (MLSE, Kerfoot, Saputo and Melnyk) groups involved at this level have NO interest in being part of an all Canadian set-up.

2. I believe support is more likely to be there now than in the late 80s but not for the CSL take two, three, six or whatever a national league cannot exist on the level required to be accpeted in this country on 2-3000 fans a game.

3. The infrastructure to be fair has improved slightly but not enough to make a difference since the failure of the CSL - in fact in some cities it has gone backwards and where it has moved ahead it is because ownership is thinking MLS not CSL III...

I've said it elsewhere - at the youth levels we need a true national championship and more representation at the USL level (either as a separate entity or as a part of the existing USL infrastructure) for the game to move forward.

I'm all for a Tier I - MLS Level Canadian National League - but it will not happen before we have 2,3 or maybe even 4 MLS teams and by then it will be a moot point. We do not have a National Tier I hockey league expecting one to happen for soccer is a bit naive IMO.

[Richard]

^ Well said Bill.

[chuphone]

quote:Originally posted by Juby

that's rather poor logic, because it failed before it will fail again. And who expected it to be filling a 20 000 seat stadium? we would not be building a La liga or Serie A, we'd be making an A-League or like a more obscure european development country. 1 000 - 2 000 fans is only a problem if your stadium is bigger then like 2 500, otherwise its perfectly successful

Actually, that's not poor logic at all. Tell me what has changed in the last decade to make a Canadian league a possibility? Just because TFC has had success doesn't mean anywhere else in the country will work. Not to mention that 1000-2000 fans is a huge problem if you're trying to run a real league, regardless of how big your stadium is. What kind of budget does 1500 fans a game get you? Enough to field a rec league team, maybe. Even if you assume the average ticket price is $30 and there are 15 home dates, that's under $700k for an entire year for a league that would have gate revenue as the #1 funding source. Deduct admin salaries, travel costs (and in an all-Canadian league these would be HUGE), and overhead from that money, and you have nothing left to pay the players. No one worth watching is going to play for $20k or less a year. Why does TFC work? Because it's in the MLS, and the MLS is perceived as the top flight league in the US and Canada.

Both Free Kick and Bill Ault said it perfectly.

[Juby]

are you silly, here's a starting tip, instead of seeing whats changed, look at what went wrong before first and try and learn from mistakes instead of closing your eyes for while and hoping it will be all right when you decide to open them. It is terrible logic because past failure does not guareentee failure, you may even be right, but your logic is flawed so so your arguements are just going to bounce off people.

And whats with all those crazy numbers, 1 000 - 2 000 fans for A SHOESTRING budget team, not the league (good god), read the post I wrote earlier, I was advocating the odd 8 000 - 10 000 seat stadiums in large markets where it could be profitible, and I basically walked through already how lower budget teams keep afloat, good ownership, low salaries, shared tv revenue, sponsorship dollars. Congratulations chuphone, you have discovered there is a difference between running an urban side and a regional side.

edit: and another crazy number is 30 bucks (way too much for most seats) as well as 15 home games, I'd say 20, plus cup competition. Not to mention that if it were successfully marketed, there would be this revenue source called merchandising, and people who go to games, tend to dish out cash, especially at a cheap game and buy hot dogs, pizza, beer etc.

[chuphone]

quote:Originally posted by Juby

are you silly, here's a starting tip, instead of seeing whats changed, look at what went wrong before first and try and learn from mistakes instead of closing your eyes for while and hoping it will be all right when you decide to open them. It is terrible logic because past failure does not guareentee failure, you may even be right, but your logic is flawed so so your arguements are just going to bounce off people.

And whats with all those crazy numbers, 1 000 - 2 000 fans for A SHOESTRING budget team, not the league (good god), read the post I wrote earlier, I was advocating the odd 8 000 - 10 000 seat stadiums in large markets where it could be profitible, and I basically walked through already how lower budget teams keep afloat, good ownership, low salaries, shared tv revenue, sponsorship dollars. Congratulations chuphone, you have discovered there is a difference between running an urban side and a regional side.

edit: and another crazy number is 30 bucks (way too much for most seats) as well as 15 home games, I'd say 20, plus cup competition. Not to mention that if it were successfully marketed, there would be this revenue source called merchandising, and people who go to games, tend to dish out cash, especially at a cheap game and buy hot dogs, pizza, beer etc.

Thanks for the overwhelming tone of condescension Juby! It's much appreciated and welcomed. So you plan to start up a full-fledged Canadian league with merchandising, sponsorship, and TV revenue? Who is going to sponsor this thing? What kind of corporation would do that? JVC? BMO? They won't kick in much. Better yet, who is going to broadcast it on TV? You'd be lucky to get radio stations on board. Until this year the Impact and Whitecaps were never on TV, at least not on a national broadcast, and you're kidding yourself if you don't think TFC had anything to do with that. The only reason the Voyageurs Cup games were on TV was because they involved TFC. A Canadian league wouldn't even get a pity deal from a broadcaster. Why would they? More Canadians would rather watch paint dry (aka baseball) than their own soccer league. Merchandising won't get you much money because you need to have fans in order to sell merchandise. How many fans do you realistically think will show up to these games? 8000-10000? Pass the glue, my friend. In the largest markets (Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver), you might get that many, but in every other market you won't even get half that number. My 1500 was based on the most recent team here in Edmonton and I used the outrageous price of $30 to try and maximize the revenue that such a team could generate.

40 teams??? Where would you put them? And forget trying to "buy" players to attract the fans. The economic realities aren't there.

It's a nice pipe dream, but be honest and look at the closest comparable, the CFL. The best players play in the NFL. Heck, even use the NHL. Until the upswing in the dollar happened teams like Edmonton and Calgary couldn't compete with the US teams for players. It would be even worse with a soccer league. The best players would go south or overseas and we'd be stuck with the rest. Good luck attracting fans, nevermind sponsors, to a product that is already substandard.

At best such a league would have to be comprised of amateurs or developing players. Still, it would have to be run by the bigger teams in the MLS and what's in it for them when they already have NCAA schools with similar programs developing players for free? I could see a league similar to the AHL in hockey with minor league teams, but even there you might get half a dozen Canadian teams at best.

[AvroArrow]

Ask yourself this:

If you were an investor with a couple hundred million dollars in the bank, would you drop $30-$40 mil on an expansion team in a league who's value for all apparent reasons is spiralling upwards, or risk 20% of that amount on an at best "unsure" investment that has failed every other time it has been attempted?

It would be safer to take your money and put it in a GIC then invest in a Canadian full fledged professional soccer league. At least you are guaranteed a return.

[Richard]

The subject of a tier 1 domestic Canadian league has been studied to death by several people/organisations and every single one of them has declared it a lost cause for a whole host of very good reasons. Why would anybody here think they can do better!

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

The subject of a tier 1 domestic Canadian league has been studied to death by several people/organisations and every single one of them has declared it a lost cause for a whole host of very good reasons. Why would anybody here think they can do better!

Exactly. I shake my had whenever this topic returns. Perhaps you have to live through the failures.

[john tv]

It's all about that media.

[Juby]

quote:Originally posted by chuphone

Thanks for the overwhelming tone of condescension Juby! It's much appreciated and welcomed. So you plan to start up a full-fledged Canadian league with merchandising, sponsorship, and TV revenue? Who is going to sponsor this thing? What kind of corporation would do that? JVC? BMO? They won't kick in much. Better yet, who is going to broadcast it on TV? You'd be lucky to get radio stations on board. Until this year the Impact and Whitecaps were never on TV, at least not on a national broadcast, and you're kidding yourself if you don't think TFC had anything to do with that. The only reason the Voyageurs Cup games were on TV was because they involved TFC. A Canadian league wouldn't even get a pity deal from a broadcaster. Why would they? More Canadians would rather watch paint dry (aka baseball) than their own soccer league. Merchandising won't get you much money because you need to have fans in order to sell merchandise. How many fans do you realistically think will show up to these games? 8000-10000? Pass the glue, my friend. In the largest markets (Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver), you might get that many, but in every other market you won't even get half that number. My 1500 was based on the most recent team here in Edmonton and I used the outrageous price of $30 to try and maximize the revenue that such a team could generate.

40 teams??? Where would you put them? And forget trying to "buy" players to attract the fans. The economic realities aren't there.

It's a nice pipe dream, but be honest and look at the closest comparable, the CFL. The best players play in the NFL. Heck, even use the NHL. Until the upswing in the dollar happened teams like Edmonton and Calgary couldn't compete with the US teams for players. It would be even worse with a soccer league. The best players would go south or overseas and we'd be stuck with the rest. Good luck attracting fans, nevermind sponsors, to a product that is already substandard.

At best such a league would have to be comprised of amateurs or developing players. Still, it would have to be run by the bigger teams in the MLS and what's in it for them when they already have NCAA schools with similar programs developing players for free? I could see a league similar to the AHL in hockey with minor league teams, but even there you might get half a dozen Canadian teams at best.

do you even bother to read or do you just assume what I've said? I said tickets + merchandising and sturdy ownership etc, thats how it works, but one minute your telling me having my eggs in the ticket basket is dumb, and then when I explain the other revenue sources a team have you act like I'm no even thinking of tickets?

And last time you said 1500 fans wasn't enough, thinking for some weird reason all the stadiums would be that big, and now that I said obviously the bigger markets will have bigger stadiums, you somehow see that as thinking every team will have a stadium that big? your making yourself sound silly. The 40 teams comes from the fact that pretty much every community of over 100 000 people could probably support 1 shoestring team in division 2, then if that city expands or goes soccer mad they'll have something to add to instead of starting from scratch.

really, a division 2 Canadian team (therefore 3rd division if were in MLS and USL was out) would probably have to pay next to nothing for salaries, if they can fill a tiny stadium, they can probably afford that stadium, and then if they see a bit of the money for either being on local TV or being on TV to play a big team, then they can probably cover travel expenses. I'm not suggesting London(our london) would compare with Crystal Palace, in all likelyhood it'd be closer to division 3 Scotland(except you'd be closer (in divisions)and probably playing the big teams of your league). and if you can get like 500 people out to a match that quality, you should be fine. Just cause there are teams, doesn't mean there gonna go out and spend money like they never heard the word business.

And hell, some teams WILL go bankrupt, thats true everywhere (even the nba had seattle move this year) and if anything that could be a good thing, it's a limited table, you can replace these footies with someone new who might understand budgets. It'd also be incredibly cheap (compared to mls) for someone who wants a team to enter the league at division 2.

ohhhh and really, I'm not suggesting London go out and get sponsored by Nike (their currently sponsored by a restaurant or something called Porky's (I think) from what I've seen on TV. Really, only the top clubs and the league would be able to get top sponsors, and the smaller teams won't go bankrupt if they don't. They just need to find a few local or interested parties, I guareentee you every team could find a sponsor to put on their shirt if the whole country knew the league was coming (ie good marketing) and every new or bought stadium could have it's name sold. For a league of 40 teams you probably just need about 100 - 200 sponsors of varying sizes, I'm pretty sure amoung the 1000's of business from or in canada we could find a few big ones, a few decent ones and nuff small deals.

[Juby]

quote:Originally posted by AvroArrow

Ask yourself this:

If you were an investor with a couple hundred million dollars in the bank, would you drop $30-$40 mil on an expansion team in a league who's value for all apparent reasons is spiralling upwards, or risk 20% of that amount on an at best "unsure" investment that has failed every other time it has been attempted?

It would be safer to take your money and put it in a GIC then invest in a Canadian full fledged professional soccer league. At least you are guaranteed a return.

who in their right mind thinks a Canadian soccer team not in MLS would be 30-40 million? if a Canadian league were to be built, it would get done by literally having a sale (all club rights must GO!). Nike wouldn't give a **** until they found out they could own and operate a team for probably less then 1 million yearly, then all of sudden, if people know the league is coming, and some are getting excited, the sponsors will want to be there, if people will see your brand on TV and at games in good numbers, technically it could be far cheaper then advertising. On top of that theirs the fact that unlike advertising, you may even have made your money back with your vehicle of advertising (the team) before you even think about how much the ads increased sales.

edit: rather early for breakfest but I do notice the egg on my face, I misread what you were saying, I still made a fine point I think but I directed it at you wrongly

[tmcmurph]

quote:Originally posted by AvroArrow

Ask yourself this:

If you were an investor with a couple hundred million dollars in the bank, would you drop $30-$40 mil on an expansion team in a league who's value for all apparent reasons is spiralling upwards, or risk 20% of that amount on an at best "unsure" investment that has failed every other time it has been attempted?

It would be safer to take your money and put it in a GIC then invest in a Canadian full fledged professional soccer league. At least you are guaranteed a return.

Or you could spend 300k and get a USL-1 franchise and at 1-1.5 million a year burn rate you could last on the interest from 40 mill alone! You would get to compete with the Canadian MLS teams in the Voyageur's Cup yearly and endure the minor league the rest of it.

Now I just need 40 mill to start with!

[An Observer]

this is such a wasted debate....the idea of a Canadian Professional league is dead as there is no one to invest in it or has shown any inclinatio to invest in it. The people with serious money are aiming at the MLS...the only way this could change is if over the next 3 or 4 years the MLS does not expand to Canada significantly AND the gillets, saputos, melynks, etc. start looking at creating their own league north of the border. otherwise, you might as well forget about it. you can come up with all the rationale's in the world for why some of you think its a better investment but unless you have the cash yourself, it doesn't matter

[Michael Crampton]

Personally I think the travel costs argument is generally overstated. USL-1 operates a continental first division with wider geographic dispersion than MLS on annual team budgets most observers estimate to be in the range of $1mil. Travel costs would be a large budgetary expense but not necessarily insurmountable. I think the two biggest factors holding back a Canadian league continue to be the lack of appropriate facilities and the general perception that a Canadian league can't work so no one wants to get invested in it. With regard to the first point if somehow a group of 6,000 to 12,000 seat stadiums suddenly sprung up around the country a Canadian league would suddenly become much more viable. The utter lack of vision from the CSA as to where they want the game to go in this country contributes mightly to the second.

People often forget how little chance MLS was given of success when it started. That league only survived some horrible early decisions simply because of aggresive cost control and a few wealthy, committed owners stuck it out through the lean times. The key turning point for MLS was within the last 4 years (Chivas, Red Bull, MLSE, and Beckham plus all the new stadiums) as the perception switched from "that league could fail any day" to "that league is here to stay." Now, even though the league still doesn't make money, investors are clamouring to be let in.

Could the same thing happen in Canada? Probably not in the same way but first we need to find our own Alan I. Rothenberg. I continue to hold out hope that one day things will start moving in this direction and can develop our own league.

[ted]

I agree with most of your words. The idea that 3 (maybe 4) teams is the basis of a sustainable league in Canada shows how totally ignorant of our country the author is.

But when you said:

quote:Originally posted by tmcmurph

Lets have Canadian players count as domestic in Canadian clubs and foreign in US clubs. US players are domestic in US clubs and foreign in Canada.

I have to ask WTF?!!?!?!

AFAIK this was exactly how it works now. They have exploited loopholes and made special exemptions but this is how the players are classified under league rules...isn't it?

[tmcmurph]

quote:Originally posted by ted

But when you said:

I have to ask WTF?!!?!?!

AFAIK this was exactly how it works now. They have exploited loopholes and made special exemptions but this is how the players are classified under league rules...isn't it?

Not since TFC joined and MoJo got changes because there wasn't enough quality Canadian players available. As far as I know, and I could be wrong (I'm married so I'm used to being wrong ), it now is that US players are counted as domestic on either US or Canadian teams but Canadian players only count as domestic in Canada.

Us players in Canada are still "domestic" which gives no incentive to Canadian clubs to develop Canadian talent. That and the "steal them at the draft" problem will need to be fixed by the MLS or our teams will simply become US development sites.