Jump to content

restructuring "FOOTBALL" in canada


tezzavilla

Recommended Posts

the idea of having a canadian only league is a mute point for a couple of reasons:

1. the MLS is hear to stay and will always be considered the top league in north america outside of mexico. in light of that, there is no way TFC will ever leave the MLS for a canadian league nor will the whitecaps or impact stop their pursuit of joining it.

2. even if we had a 8-10 team league, canada does not have enough quality players to play in it. for those of you who've been to TFC games, the one thing that stands out is how bad the quality of play actually is. to be honest, a canadian only league will turn people away rather than stay. just watch the current CSL for an example of what i mean.

that is why i am calling for a major junior football league. that is the first step to building quality players for the national team, MLS and international. furthermore, the reason why i sujjested that canadian teams join the USL, doing so would not only give young canadians a place to play proffesionaly, but perhaps in the next 5-10 years, the MLS may merge with the USL and become a division two (with hopefully promotion/regualtion in place). doing so would allow canadian teams to be propmoted and play at the top level. the key once again is to start a national junior system to broaden and raise the level of talent in this country.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the idea of having a canadian only league is a mute point for a couple of reasons:

1. the MLS is hear to stay and will always be considered the top league in north america outside of mexico. in light of that, there is no way TFC will ever leave the MLS for a canadian league nor will the whitecaps or impact stop their pursuit of joining it.

2. even if we had a 8-10 team league, canada does not have enough quality players to play in it. for those of you who've been to TFC games, the one thing that stands out is how bad the quality of play actually is. to be honest, a canadian only league will turn people away rather than stay. just watch the current CSL for an example of what i mean.

that is why i am calling for a major junior football league. that is the first step to building quality players for the national team, MLS and international. furthermore, the reason why i sujjested that canadian teams join the USL, doing so would not only give young canadians a place to play proffesionaly, but perhaps in the next 5-10 years, the MLS may merge with the USL and become a division two (with hopefully promotion/regualtion in place). doing so would allow canadian teams to be propmoted and play at the top level. the key once again is to start a national junior system to broaden and raise the level of talent in this country.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by Tuscan

Hehe all the billionaires in this country are on CBC's Dragon's Den. How about a group of us create a league plan and go on the show with it, see how far we get... Their responses oughta really break the hearts of us Canuck soccer enthusiasts.

You have a great idea. Seriously. If anyone is looking for a business persons perspective on a league or even a team (ourfootballclub.ca type of thing) do up a business plan and submit it. At the very least you will get feedback and an insight into what those with the money consider feasable and why.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by Eric

Whats it got to do with Fans, and inferiority complex? "Investors are not interested" and its as simple as that. How do you propose to change that. NO INVESTORS = NO CLUBS = NO LEAGUE. Fans dont figure into the equation.

For 20 years there was no top flight pro game in Canada. There was ample chance but no body is interested because they know it wont work. What joe fan ( who doesn't have to put a cent up of his own money) thinks is irrelevant. Past experience, Common sence and studies have proven that its not economically feasible.

Now finally there are some big time investors interested( Melnyk, MLSEL, Saputo, Kefoot etc). But what are they interested in? MLS.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What we need more than a top tier professional league of our own - would be nice but won't happen for all the reasons already stated - is a Canadian version of the USL or more Canadian involvement in the USL... We need a CUSL!! No not that one.... (for those that remember) but one that sees a series of regional youth and senior leagues playing towards national titles.

We need a national SYL(s) With a Western and Eastern conference where clubs can apply to participate and must meet minimum standards to participate. We need our own PDL and W-Leagues with the same criteria, meet the standards, pay the fee and play. Perhaps we could even retain a link to the USL and play for a North American title if need be.

The W-League is furthest ahead along this path and has slowly been building a Canadian division in Ontario and Quebec with London, Hamilton, Toronto, Ottawa, Laval and now Quebec City in the loop - a couple more and the CUSL Eastern Conference would be complete. Of course Vancouver sits on the coast by themselves...

We have existing PDL franchises in Thunder Bay, Toronto, Ottawa and Vancouver and Abbotsford and while I'm not sure of the necessity of a PDL (I think senior club teams meeting certain standards could fulfill the same role) I am sure that every region with more than 250,000 (Random number) in population could field a PDL level side...

On the youth side we have SYL franchises in Ottawa, Toronto and four in BC Abbotsford and the three Whitecap franchises (correct me if I'm wrong on this one). We've had to my knowledge at least two SYL applications in Alberta, one in Saskatchewan, one in Quebec and an unconfirmed (two maybe three) number in Ontario blocked by the Provincial Associations. So the interest is there to form a national level youth system all it needs is someone to lead the way instead of blocking it.

What would it take to repatriate the existing clubs and get more on board. A business approach that makes sense to all involved, the acknowledgment of the provincial associations that they need to facilitate the development of the game at all levels and that this is the job of the clubs (not administrators or associations) and that governing bodies along with the stakeholders (read pro / non-amateurs) need to come with a set of standards for membership that help determine if you are capable of running an organization that can compete at the highest level in our country - not just one of your teams but your club as a whole.

Probably based on current populations you could have 10 franchises in the East - 8 in the West. No interlocking games until the Nationals when the top four? from each conference qualify for the championships...

As for the USL and whether playing in an American league is the way to go - people often ask me what did I enjoy most about coaching in the SYL - four things: the level of competition and coaching, the quality of the facilities and the organizations involved, the rivalries (trust me after a few years there were few things less intense than a meeting between Boston and Ottawa at any level) and finally the general feeling that no matter what everyone involved was pushing to do their best on and off the field in the most professional manner they could.

Here we often IMO try to force the best down - we coach, we train, we teach "to the middle" - just as it is inexcusable to leave people behind because of their lesser talents it is just as wrong to ask the more talented to hold back. Simple answer let everyone find their level and give them the best experience you can - we cannot do that under Canadian soccer's current structure.

Populations (for reference)

Eastern Conference:

Toronto 5,113,149

Montréal 3,635,571

Ottawa 1,130,761

Québec 715,515

Hamilton 692,911

London ONT 457,720

Kitchener 451,235

St. Catharines 390,317

Halifax NS 372,858

Oshawa ONT 330,594

Windsor ONT 323,342

Western Conference:

Vancouver 2,116,581

Calgary ALTA 1,079,310

Edmonton 1,034,945

Winnipeg 694,668

Victoria 330,088

Saskatoon 233,923

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Exactly. Apart from a very few who are willing to subsidise, most investors are looking to make a return on their investment eventually and what is happening with MLS in that regard is hard to resist. I think the absence of a successful domestic competitor to MLS and USL-1 is the clearest indicator possible that these entrepeneurs have no faith in any return on an investment in a domestic league. I don't count the CSL as any kind of competitor to MLS or USL-1 but even they are struggling. The best we can hope for is a Canadian division of one of these leagues eventually, I think an independent first division Canadian domestic league is a pipe dream now.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by superbrad

Its not just fans. Fans is just one way you generate revenues. there are many other ways: Commercial sponsorships, Merchandizing, rights fees and broadcasting fees... etc.. All these are contingent on facilities as well; which we lack. And then what about the costs. There are cost advantage to the current setup as well. Add it all up and you are now looking at a product that would be operating at a significatly lower level than MLS because we are a smaller market. If thats the case, then what good does it do.

Edit.: Here is another good example to prove my point. Without looking at the numbers for attendance, its pretty obvious that the CFL average attendance per game is much higher than MLS. And yet, MLS franchises are selling at between 40-50 million. What are CFL teams selling at? No where close to to that. I think that the Argos last sold for a couple of mill. See what I am getting at?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by Eric

^ Thank you........ some people give up before they start.

Seems that Eric is more of a Shaw person than a Santayana.

"Some people see things as they are and ask 'Why?'. I dream things that never were and say 'Why not?'". (Shaw)

"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it". (Santayana)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Without broadbased fan support there is no merchandising, rights fees etc. MLS franchises are expensive because of the US infrastructure. What I've been saying is that it would be tough to have an all Canadian league because the precedent in Canada is that the top flight league is the MLS. Any thing else will be Tier 2.

The two ideas I like coming out of this thread is a) an all Canadian division of MLS, and B) a major junior soccer league.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by Bill Spiers

Seems that Eric is more of a Shaw person than a Santayana.

"Some people see things as they are and ask 'Why?'. I dream things that never were and say 'Why not?'". (Shaw)

"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it". (Santayana)

I guess I am Bill, but so was Pelé, Terry Fox and Michael Phelps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by Bill Spiers

Seems that Eric is more of a Shaw person than a Santayana.

"Some people see things as they are and ask 'Why?'. I dream things that never were and say 'Why not?'". (Shaw)

"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it". (Santayana)

A+ on the post Bill. These were Timothy Leary's last words before he died...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bill Ault's idea was something that I've wondered aloud about as well. For me, Bill's suggestion are a perfectly acceptable fall back position. Actually, its the most likely scenario for getting anything approximating a Canadian league in the short term and I'm quite certain that USL would welcome it.

Guys, at the end of the day, all I really want, what all Canadian soccer lovers should want and what Canada desperately needs is a bunch of Canadian professional soccer clubs, playing at a reasonably high level, with all the freedom they need to structure their club to develop players, sell players, reinvest in their clubs, etc... We need more high level opportunities for our young players to strive for. We also need more opportunities for coaches. Canada is a dead zone for coaches. There is no incentive to become a great coach because there is only a tiny number of decent paying jobs (MNT coach, WNT coach and head coach of Impact, Whitecaps and TFC....right now, only 2 of those 5 jobs are held by Canadians)

I'm not convinced at all that Canadian soccer fans won't accept USL level soccer. The Impact and Whitecaps have proven that the quality is good. Heck, I pay $10 a game to watch CSL because that is pretty good soccer...there is not a big difference in quality or entertainment value between MLS and CSL...laugh if you will but I've seen it with my own eyes. The only thing lacking are the crowds. If the crowds came out, the experience would be exciting. Sports, like any entertainment venture, requires marketing and good marketing requires money.

The MLS level of soccer is not that high but ultimately, who cares if the quality is super high. If your domenstic league games are entertaining, if you have decent crowds who have the support of the club to have a good time at the game, if you have a decent venue, etc... there is no reason that we must devalue our own product. Canadian player development would be improved more significantly and more rapidly simply by having 8 full fledged professional clubs (I don't care what level, MLS or USL) than any Long Term Wellness to World Cup Development Plan the CSA and the provinces could ever produce. Pro Clubs will always do a better job of developing players than any governing body because there exists an incentive for being successful.

I'm not sure I can say any more....I just hope one day it happens and, if it does, there will be no bigger cheerleader and supporter than me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by tezzavilla

if you think that mls and the csl are the same quality, then it's no wonder this country is where it is in the football world! what a shame!!!!

let me rephrase....not much difference in ENTERTAINMENT VALUE.

Yes, there is a quality difference between CSL and MLS, the same way as there is a difference in quality between Serie C and Serie A in Italy or League 1 and EPL in England. The CSL is what it is and its not bad. Its entertaining and wide open. Most CSL matches I've watched are very entertaining and are very good value for the money...I enjoy myself tremendously. I can't say that I've been overly entertained by TFC this season. It's been painful to watch, in fact.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by tezzavilla

* there should only be ONE body that runs football in this country. all provincial administrations should be merged into a strong centralized governing body.

That is the best idea I've heard in a long time. Provincial Associations are redundant and only serve to feed the CSA board with the wrong people with the wrong agendas. I further would like to see the CSA divided into two bodies. The first and head of all in charge of the country national teams and professional league (when we get one), also the main body linked to FIFA. The second body reporting to the first to be in charge of all youth soccer in the country and youth leagues.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh please do not remind me how much I loathe the provincial associations, or at least the ASA:

1. This is going way back, but trust me on this one, it was an ASA staffer who contacted the Welsh FA about OH and kind of got his head spinning on other possibilities outside the Cdn national team set up. Sweet!!

2. The ASA forbids the entry of Calgary and Edmonton teams in the Super Y League of the USL. Sweet!! Wouldn't want the kids to miss those terribly meaningful national all-star camps, preparing for powerhouses PEI and the Yukon, by going up against real competition.

What a waste of space.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

I'm not convinced at all that Canadian soccer fans won't accept USL level soccer. The Impact and Whitecaps have proven that the quality is good. Heck, I pay $10 a game to watch CSL because that is pretty good soccer...there is not a big difference in quality or entertainment value between MLS and CSL...laugh if you will but I've seen it with my own eyes. The only thing lacking are the crowds. If the crowds came out, the experience would be exciting. Sports, like any entertainment venture, requires marketing and good marketing requires money.

I think that the fans have spoken regarding the USL and CSL. We now have had well over 10 years of exposure to varying degrees to USL soccer in Canada. So what have we seen? I think that you can best summarize it by saying that compared to other minor pro sports in canada, its been a success from an attendance standpoint but there are problems. They are not increasing the fan base or creating a real following. And, for every USL success story, there has also been the opposite. Montreal and Vancouver have been positives. Calgary and edmonton have been negatives. Toronto barely muddled along going nowhere and not showing signs of progressing beyond where they were.

Other observations of the USL: From what I have witnessed (Lynx & Impact) and read here and elsewhere about (Caps and other USL team), they are similar to minor pro baseball and hockey in selling entertainment but not soccer. So there is little to no loyality to the team and players nor a strong sence of belonging other than that tiny core that make up the supporters group.

Therefore, they are more about marketing of the game experience rather than the quality of the product or building a true loyality or emotional attachment to the product. Thats NOT to say that the on-field product isn't good. It is actually very good in the case of Montreal and Vancouver , but too many fans are more interested in the doughnut give aways and tee-shirt tosses than the skill talent and teams on display. Nor is they any loyalty to the colours. I would even go so far that I am not so sure that its the greatest for player development either.

As far as CSL. I went to see one of the two leg matches for the CSL final last year( Tor Croatia versis Serbian White Eagles). It was one of the highest prices that I paid for a ticket in recent memory. So I fail to see how one could attach the word "Value" to the word "Entertainment" in so far as the CSL. The on-field product was actually good; there were a couple of talented player and the tactics and playing style was much more refined and very refreshing after years of direct style soccer that we have been subjected to in Toronto. But in no way did the whole experience justify the relatively exhorbitant prices that I paid. The game was at Ester shiners. My jaw dropped when I was at the ticket booth and heard the price that I would have to pay. I paid less to see Gold cup and world cup matches. And all this, just to sit on metal benches next to field with artificail surface. They didn't even let people out ( include at half time) for a break after you were in. the half time ammenities ( concessions, line ups, washrooms) were pretty much what you see at centennial and not synomomous with professional but rather semi pro. The difference with USL was that in that game there was a stronger of sence loyalty and belonging in the crowd. But considering that this was biggest of all games ( ie.; the final), the emotional involvement was very low.

Its very evident what USL and CSL are. They are second and third divison or minor pro. and semi-pro. You just need ( or maybe dont need) to be there to see it and feel it for yourself. They dont have the facilities and never will.

So you are saying that you dont want a top level game ( ie.: MLS). Well, I dont see any point in having a second and third divison if you dont have a first divison. Without the acompanying infrastruction that top flisght soccer brings ( ie.: stadia, facilities, promotion and marketing, academies) the game will go nowhere. I think that you know that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...