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Joey being a tad wishy washy on MLS


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"why do names such as Eugene Melnyk, MLSEL, and George Gillet only surface when we are talking about Major League soccer."

Because MLS franchises have been appreciating in value and continue to do so plus many are very profitable operationally. Meanwhile most USL clubs are a drain on the bank account for the owners requiring regular cash injections in order to survive.

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quote:Originally posted by VPjr

There is no doubt we need pro soccer in Canada and MLS is pro soccer. But the league's rules are such that what we have are stand alone teams, not clubs. The league can talk all it wants to about its academies and its commitment to developing players but its hogwash. The league's academy setup provides no incentive to clubs to really invest in youth development. These players are not the property of the club and, hell, TFC-A players have already begun to realize that the Whitecaps program is a better avenue for professional development.

Question: Is this the fault of MLS as a whole or just TFC's management personnel? Do other MLS teams develop players?

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quote:Originally posted by VPjr

I judge the value of TFC to Canadian soccer differently now that I've had two years to look at it and get my thoughts together.

At first, I was just really happy to have a professional team back in Toronto. However, the initial happiness has been replaced by frustration and resentment. As I've learned more about the league and its structure and the way it limits the ambitions of its member teams, I realize that the MLS does Canada very little good other than give some mainstream exposure to the sport. I don't believe the priorities of the league mesh with what is needed for Canadian soccer.

There is no doubt we need pro soccer in Canada and MLS is pro soccer. But the league's rules are such that what we have are stand alone teams, not clubs. The league can talk all it wants to about its academies and its commitment to developing players but its hogwash. The league's academy setup provides no incentive to clubs to really invest in youth development. These players are not the property of the club and, hell, TFC-A players have already begun to realize that the Whitecaps program is a better avenue for professional development.

But all of this fits into the "not as good as it could be/improvements need to be made" category that I mentioned earlier. I don't disagree that things could be better with TFC (it remains to be seen how other Canadian MLS teams will do with the Canadian talent issue though I suspect they'll be better than Mo has been) & I have spent much time on this board pointing out where we should expect & demand better. That doesn't mean, nor does it answer, how MLS is or has been bad for Canadian soccer or has made things worse for us in just its second year in Canada.

As for the academy, with less than one year after it started it is way, way, way too premature to pass judgment on it.

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quote:Originally posted by El Hombre

Question: Is this the fault of MLS as a whole or just TFC's management personnel? Do other MLS teams develop players?

All MLS teams have academies, as I understand it. Only in the next couple of years will we see how many, if any, players graduate to the senior team but, at most, only 1 player can be graduated each year and only after that player has been in the program for 2 years. Ever wonder why these odd rules exist???? My guess is to stay friendly with NCAA.

If every MLS team could run an Academy like Whitecaps do, all these players would be putting NCAA eligibility at risk. I often wonder why that should be a consideration for MLS but its clear it is. If MLS is supposed to be the top level of Pro Soccer in North America, it must take player development seriously. Right now, its all window dressing. College soccer should not be a serious development option for North American soccer. it should be the 2nd option, at best. Clubs should be self reliant on developing players and should instill in players the traits that will make them good pros. Being a good college player doesn't make you a good pro (except maybe at the GK position)...

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I agree with you VPjr, to a certain degree. It would be great if the MLS blended in to the international football scene seamlessly but it doesn't. Ruud Gullit has listed a good many reasons why. I'm not a fan of franchise fees, period. I never will be. The money is used to make the league richer. I don't see why the league needs to generate funds by that method.

To be defensive of the MLS (devil's advocate), their main goal in the beginning was to be stable and long term. The contraction of teams was a tough business decision to make in 2001. Now that Beckham is on board (and we all know that is the only reason) owners of other sports franchises are looking to get on board with him. Some markets are well suited to soccer and some are not. For me, Philly will be very interesting, KC always looked weak. If this site is even close to accurate, http://www.mlsfanblog.com/mls-season-ticket-sales-for-2008/ , Chivas USA should be in big trouble. The MLS now finds itself being challenged to open up some of these rules, draft, salary cap, club structure.

From 2001 to 2007 every thing in this league has changed. Is it good for Canada? Exposure, yes. Players, no. Coaches, maybe. Until the roster sizes get bigger, the players in Canada looking to stay home, still have to be really good or be willing to be paid what $20,000? Come on, that is a slap in the face, isn't it?

Not to change the subject but is the Champions League making a bigger impact than MLS on Canadian soccer? Does anyone know how much money Montreal stands to gain by this new CCL? I loved the look of the Canadian Championship and can't wait to see it progress over the years. That's why I'd love to see more Canadian owners get teams into the USL-1 because that is the easy trip to adding teams to the Canadian Championship and maybe more than one rep in the CCL. The MLS will be very conservative about growth because they want to be stable. The USL seems to take more riskier owners, look at what happened to Rochester.

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quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

That doesn't mean, nor does it answer, how MLS is or has been bad for Canadian soccer or has made things worse for us in just its second year in Canada.

I never said that things are worse for Canadian soccer with TFC than without.

I have said that MLS (specifically MLS rules regarding roster makeup and youth academies) is bad for Canadian soccer and I worry about what will happen if USL teams become MLS teams. I'm sure lots of fans would like to see their local team playing in the "big league" but the big league's priorities don't mesh with the needs of Canadian soccer.

Remember, I'm not concerned about the bank balances of these billionaire owners. I'm sure USL teams don't make the money that MLS teams do so I can appreciate why these clubs want to make the jump...I just don't think its good for Canadian player development.

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

As for the academy, with less than one year after it started it is way, way, way too premature to pass judgment on it.

it is too early to judge how successful TFC's academy is. They might end up developing good players one day.

However, its not too early to pass judgement on the rules that govern all MLS academies. The fact that, from the current group of U16 and U18 players in the TFC Academy, only 1 or 2 players will be permitted to be graduated to the senior program (only 1 player per year graduates and they must be in the system 2 years before they can be graduated) means that all the money TFC invests in the program is really being spent to develop players for someone else, not for TFC. I'm not stupid...I know that 1 or 2 players out of 40 is probably a realistic ratio anyways but the rules, as they exist, are a massive disincentive to making major investments in player development.

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A Canadian League would be the best thing that could happen to soccer in this country, but I don't see it happening in the near future. And I think TFC has been fantastic for Canadian Soccer, and the natural route for Montreal and Vancouver is to follow.

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quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

Because they opened up more seats for season ticket packages.

In the first season they had 14,000 and in the second 17,900.

Yes that is correct. Also I think the season ticket numbers are less important than average attendance. Chivas is averaging 15 000 per game which is pretty decent so I don't think the low number of season ticket holders is of that much concern. Even the team with the lowest attendance, Kansas City, is averaging close to 11 000 fans per game which is not too bad for a league at the level MLS is at.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/stats/attendance?league=USA.1&year=2008&&cc=5901

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quote:Originally posted by VPjr

I never said that things are worse for Canadian soccer with TFC than without.

I have said that MLS (specifically MLS rules regarding roster makeup and youth academies) is bad for Canadian soccer

Well if MLS is not making things worse for Canadian soccer, then I really don't see how it can be said that "MLS is bad for Canadian soccer" - that's generally what "something is bad for you" means, that it's harmful & will make you worse off. Otherwise that puts us into the "not as good as it could be" category that few would disagree with.

The only thing that potentially might be worse is if the Whitecaps have to suspend their residency program and that's a huge "if". I know there are rules for the academies but rules can be changed to fit a club's needs - just ask Mo Johnston about that. And then you have to weigh that against the positives that we could spend all day listing.

We should not be assuming that the many faults of TFC soccer management are automatically going to be repeated by subsequent Canadian MLS teams. Especially as they are all unlikley to be able to hire Mo Johnston at the same time, and especially if the soccer operations continue to be run by Canadians (and I can't see that changing in Vancouver any time soon).

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quote:Not to change the subject but is the Champions League making a bigger impact than MLS on Canadian soccer?

For me the question is whether Canada would be in the Champions League at all without MLS coming to Canada. My strong belief is "no".

And would we really be getting CBC broadcasting the Champions League matches to help make that impact without them getting on the pro soccer bandwagon with MLS in Canada? Again, in my view a definite "no". So in a sense I don't think you can divorce the two. I think the positive factors that have resulted from the game's profile being raised in Canada has started ripples that have spread out all over the place (to even Ottawa ;) ) which we will not see the results of for some time.

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quote:Originally posted by Ed

Those numbers look bogus to me. How did Toronto experience a > 30% increase in season ticket sales? I thought they were sold out this year and last?

Dont know where you got that number. But I believe that the waiting list for season tickets increased. You pay a seat licence for a season ticket and maybe you have to pay a seat licence to get in line. there are no reportedly 9000 requests for season tickets over and above what is already sold..

Or, yes they sold out every game of both years. But they increased the cut off ( for maximum season tickets) to 16000 this year. I believe it was at 12000 last year.

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quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Dont know where you got that number. But I believe that the waiting list for season tickets increased. You pay a seat licence for a season ticket and maybe you have to pay a seat licence to get in line. there are no reportedly 9000 requests for season tickets over and above what is already sold..

Or, yes they sold out every game of both years. But they increased the cut off ( for maximum season tickets) to 16000 this year. I believe it was at 12000 last year.

The 30% figure (which I assume is what you are asking about) was in the linked article on MLS attendance, above in this thread.

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quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

We should not be assuming that the many faults of TFC soccer management are automatically going to be repeated by subsequent Canadian MLS teams. Especially as they are all unlikley to be able to hire Mo Johnston at the same time, and especially if the soccer operations continue to be run by Canadians (and I can't see that changing in Vancouver any time soon).

Funny stuff there:D, and I agree with your points.

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