Vic Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 For a little break from the gender discussions... red card's post: "well, I don't want this forum to be 100% "go team go" which is largely what is seen in other Cdn women soccer forums" Here yay. Soccertaxi posted a women's program retrospective at GBR, which is one of the cheerleading forums you mention above. Below is a section of it dealing with Even Pellerud (hope you don't mind taxi): "The team has evolved tremendously over the last 8 years and credit is due to Even Pellerud. Agree or not with his tactics, no one can deny what Mr. Pellerud has done for the Canadian Women’s soccer program. Could the team have gone further with someone else…who knows? We all need to stop and look at what HAS been achieved: FIFA rankings, World Cup results, International tournament results, Olympic qualification, results against top ranked world teams, golden boots, golden balls, residency program etc…This man fought tooth and nail to get resources for women's soccer in Canada, he even secured private financing! Look at the phenomenal groundswell in female soccer players across the country, it is a tribute to the success of our National Team. Like him or not, history will recognize Mr. Pellerud’s huge contribution." People here are intelligent enough to handle difference of opinion and calling a spade a spade, so just to celebrate our freedom and discuss both sides of the coin, a comment on those achievements: 1) FIFA rankings Women's rankings never existed until the Summer of 2003. 2) World Cup results Pre-Pellerud 1991 (1 CONCACAF - USA only) 1995 (2 CONCACAF - 3rd/4 in our pool) 1999 (2 CONCACAF - 3rd/4 in our pool) Post-Pellerud 2003 (2 CONCACAF - 2nd/4 in our pool) 1-0 Quarter-final win over China 2007 (2 CONCACAF - 3rd/4 in our pool) 3) International tournament results WORLD CUP - see above OLYMPICS 2000 (1 CONCACAF - USA only) 2004 (2 CONCACAF - upset by underdog Mexicans) 2008 (2 CONCACAF - 3rd/4 in our pool) PAN AM GAMES 2007 beat minnows lost to Brazil 0-7 lost to USA U-20 2-3 GOLD CUP Besides the USA whom we have never beaten in it, we never met a quality side until this year. GENERAL COMMENT His departing comment the other day was: "Um, he can start by looking at my record," Pellerud said on Friday when asked about de Vos's comments. "For winning. For winning soccer games and tournaments, and then we can go on after that." Canada has not won a tournament in the Pellerud decade. 4) Olympic qualification Women's soccer has only been in the Olympics 3 times before this Summer. The first two were one CONCACAF rep (USA). They went to a 2nd CONCACAF rep last time in 2004 for Athens and our meltdown was our one single loss to Mexico in 15 games. What is CSA and media uber-promoted as our historic on-the-field achievement is simply a widening of the entry pool. 5) results against top ranked world teams Pellerud vs. the Top 5 teams in the world USA - 2008 OLYM 1-2 loss - 2007 WWCQ 1-2 loss - 2003 WWCQ 1-2 loss - 2003 WWC 1-3 loss - 10 straight losses against them in friendlies Brazil - never met in competition Sweden - 2008 OLYM 1-2 loss Germany - 2003 WWC 1-4 loss Norway - 2007 WWC 1-2 loss 6) golden boots No one on a Pellerud Canadian women's team has ever won this. 7) golden balls No one on a Pellerud Canadian women's team has ever won this. 8) residency program etc… Great for the girls lives and no doubt beneficial for their long-term development, but performance-wise it had no effect on results. 9) fought tooth and nail to get resources for women's soccer in Canada, he even secured private financing! That is the job description of a Women's Program Director, for which I believe he was well paid each year. There is also the issue of how he did it. 10) the phenomenal groundswell in female soccer players across the country Year-over-year increases in female registrations have gone down since Pellerud arrived. --- Even Pellerud put a lot into Canadian women's soccer in the past decade, and there's no need to sugar coat his tenure. His legacy is measured not in results but in the stability of his name and the spirit he brought, especially early on. But his rise and fall in Canadian women's soccer is a true Shakespearean tragedy. A very smart man, he used his advanced knowledge of the women's game in Norway to provide substance and professionalism here early in the millenium. But after an initial good run the train went off the rails. I think the flashpoint was probably in Mexico when we missed Athens. The pressure and demands for results after that led to the poorly executed introduction of Kerfoot's money and Whitecaps resources/influence. The introduction of higher funding was bound to happen sooner or later as our women's program matured, it was simply mishandled by Pellerud and he could never recover from it. All very human and all very normal. We all succeed and we all fail. And even the greatest and most dedicated men and women become led astray by ambition and the continual stress of work and family (performance demands, the spotlight, providing for your wife and children, etc). Mistakes and failure are as much a neccessary part as success on the path to greatness. I recognize the commitment and work he put into Canadian women's soccer and have no doubt he'll rebound and do a great job with a fresh start, as will our program. Two great forces that simply need separation to continue to grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terpfan68 Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Coaches are "hired to be fired". That's the way it is and the way it always will be. The question coaches are asked is "What have you done for us lately?" Pellerud has recognized that it is time to move on. Perhaps he announced his resignation to preclude a non-renewal of his contract. His final legacy will depend on the success/failure of his successor. Three years should be enough time to see if the team has already reached the high-water mark of its achievement, or whether it can move out of the middle group of teams and reach the top 5 in women's soccer. Three years (World Cup 2010) will also mean that Pellerud can't be blamed for the state of women's soccer in Canada. (Not that that will stop everyone.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccertaxi Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Vic For a little break from the gender discussions... red card's post: "well, I don't want this forum to be 100% "go team go" which is largely what is seen in other Cdn women soccer forums" Here yay. Soccertaxi posted a women's program retrospective at GBR, which is one of the cheerleading forums you mention above. Below is a section of it dealing with Even Pellerud (hope you don't mind taxi): "The team has evolved tremendously over the last 8 years and credit is due to Even Pellerud. Agree or not with his tactics, no one can deny what Mr. Pellerud has done for the Canadian Women’s soccer program. Could the team have gone further with someone else…who knows? We all need to stop and look at what HAS been achieved: FIFA rankings, World Cup results, International tournament results, Olympic qualification, results against top ranked world teams, golden boots, golden balls, residency program etc…This man fought tooth and nail to get resources for women's soccer in Canada, he even secured private financing! Look at the phenomenal groundswell in female soccer players across the country, it is a tribute to the success of our National Team. Like him or not, history will recognize Mr. Pellerud’s huge contribution." Even Pellerud put a lot into Canadian women's soccer in the past decade, and there's no need to sugar coat his tenure. His legacy is measured not in results but in the stability of his name and the spirit he brought, especially early on. But his rise and fall in Canadian women's soccer is a true Shakespearean tragedy. A very smart man, he used his advanced knowledge of the women's game in Norway to provide substance and professionalism here early in the millenium. But after an initial good run the train went off the rails. I think the flashpoint was probably in Mexico when we missed Athens. The pressure and demands for results after that led to the poorly executed introduction of Kerfoot's money and Whitecaps resources/influence. The introduction of higher funding was bound to happen sooner or later as our women's program matured, it was simply mishandled by Pellerud and he could never recover from it. All very human and all very normal. We all succeed and we all fail. And even the greatest and most dedicated men and women become led astray by ambition and the continual stress of work and family (performance demands, the spotlight, providing for your wife and children, etc). Mistakes and failure are as much a neccessary part as success on the path to greatness. I recognize the commitment and work he put into Canadian women's soccer and have no doubt he'll rebound and do a great job with a fresh start, as will our program. Two great forces that simply need separation to continue to grow. Don't mind you posting it but do mind the condescending tone and introduction. To pull only one congratulatory post out of a site and to label them all GO TEAM GO, is rather unfair to all of the posters at GBR. There are many interesting and respectful discussions happening on GBR. But it is true that posters on GBR are more positive than on Voyageurs...you'll have to convince me that its a bad thing. My post was not meant to be a masters thesis on Even Pellerud and the Women's National Team, it was written in the context of a congratulatory post for the Canadian Team in Beijing. Statistics are very pliable and can be used to bolster almost any argument. You have manipulated them and my words in this instance to bolster your arguments. For one, I was referring to Pellerud's full tenure over the past 9 years, not just the last two years and not just as a coach. I did not ask that he be cannonized but only that we recognize credit where credit is due. I do not have the time to research and refute all of your points but here are a few examples: "1) FIFA rankings Women's rankings never existed until the Summer of 2003." But Canada did move up in the rankings since 2003, have they not? "4) Olympic qualification Women's soccer has only been in the Olympics 3 times before this Summer. The first two were one CONCACAF rep (USA). They went to a 2nd CONCACAF rep last time in 2004 for Athens and our meltdown was our one single loss to Mexico in 15 games. What is CSA and media uber-promoted as our historic on-the-field achievement is simply a widening of the entry pool. " But Canada did qualify for the Olympics and made the quarter finals falling in overtime to the #1 ranked team in the World (a team that is now a finalist) by a single goal...you see the glass half empty and I see it half full. The World and the general Canadian public (who up until now was rather ignorant about women's soccer) now knows the CWT, a net gain for the program. I am certain that Olympic exposure had a lot to do with new sponsors coming on board. "5) results against top ranked world teams Pellerud vs. the Top 5 teams in the world" I said top teams not just top 5, not just tournaments I was referring to friendlies also...Obviously if we had been beating the top 5 we would be ranked in the top 5. "USA - 2008 OLYM 1-2 loss - 2007 WWCQ 1-2 loss - 2003 WWCQ 1-2 loss - 2003 WWC 1-3 loss - 10 straight losses against them in friendlies" All very close games against the #1 team in the World. The last few (Peace Quuen Cup and Olympics 2008) could have gone either way. "Brazil- never met in competition" Friendly: July 23, 2003 Canada 2, Brazil 1 Friendly: summer 2008 tied Brazil (I know Marta and the superstars were not there..) "Sweden - 2008 OLYM 1-2 loss" 2003 Algarve Cup: Canada 1, Sweden 1 Friendly July 18, 2006: Canada 4, Sweden 2 "6) golden boots No one on a Pellerud Canadian women's team has ever won this. 7) golden balls No one on a Pellerud Canadian women's team has ever won this." Sinclair won as a U19 (with Pellerud as women's program director) and won top scorer at a few international tournaments...my post was not meant to be a legal brief. "8) residency program etc… Great for the girls lives and no doubt beneficial for their long-term development, but performance-wise it had no effect on results." A net benefit for the players and the program and a precedent for women's soccer; significant private investment in a women's team and belief in their abilities. "9) fought tooth and nail to get resources for women's soccer in Canada, he even secured private financing! That is the job description of a Women's Program Director, for which I believe he was well paid each year. There is also the issue of how he did it." The point is he did do it, to my knowledge his predecessors hadn't, so a net improvement for the players and the team budget. "10) the phenomenal groundswell in female soccer players across the country Year-over-year increases in female registrations have gone down since Pellerud arrived." I should have said popularity and quality. The quality of the player pool has improved considerably has it not? The number of girls who want to play elite level soccer and make the National Team and who now believe that World Cup and Olympic Gold is a possibility has a lot to do with the National Team's success over the past 9 years. So when I look back at the last nine years I see lots of accomplishments and to assume that they would all have come about under another coach is purely hypothetical. I am not refuting the fact that after 9 years change will be good, but take your dark glasses off for just a second. The person at the helm was Pellerud and along with the players and other staff he deserves his fair share of the credit for the advancements to the program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Reference is made above to achievements during the Pellerud tenure. Perhaps the following information from the CSA website will be helpful in correcting a few misperceptions: History of award winners: FIFA U-20 Women's World Cup 2004 adidas Golden Boot - Brittany Timko 2004 All-Stars - Brittany Timko 2002 adidas Golden Ball - Christine Sinclair 2002 adidas Golden Boot - Christine Sinclair CONCACAF Women's Gold Cup 2006 Top Scorers - Christine Sinclair et al. 2006 Most Outstanding Goalie - Erin McLeod 2002 Top Scorers - Christine Sinclair, Charmaine Hooper et al. 2002 All-Stars - Candace Chapman, Christine Sinclair, Charmaine Hooper, Kara Lang Peace Queen Cup 2006 Golden Shoe - Christine Sinclair 2006 Silver Ball - Christine Sinclair 2008 Golden Shoe - Christine Sinclair 2008 Silver Ball - Christine Sinclair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 ^Wasn't the U20 team coached by Ian Bridge? In all your objectivity or lack thereof you should also list all Pellerud failures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted August 21, 2008 Author Share Posted August 21, 2008 Sorry if you found the intro condescending. The intent wasn't there, it was simply to segue from male/female threads which were getting stale. And GO TEAM GO was not my phrase, but I do support it. Yes there are often interesting discussions there, and there are a lot of intelligent posters but in general it's more GO [insert name here] GO! You disagree or want to call that positive, go to town. I presented statistics to counter you bolstering your Pellerud the Great Achiever argument (opinion/statement whatever you deem it) with unsubstantiated and misleading phrases. And statistics may be pliable, but they're a step up on simply tossing out a bunch of meaningless phrases. FIFA Rankings - Like I said, they didn't exist before Pellerud arrived or even in the first half of his tour of duty. In 2003 we were 11th. Two years later in 2005 we were 13th. Anyone who has followed the rankings knows that in terms of an indicator of performance, the difference between 9th and 11th is insignificant. What were we in 1999? Where were we in 1995? 1985? Did the rate of increase go up or down? Simply throwing out "FIFA rankings" as a commendation of success is meaningless. Olympic qualification - Qualify for the Olympics? We qualified for the Olympics because they widened the pool for crying out loud. And we made a quarter final because we got put in the weakest group with Argentina. Had we been put in any other group it was lights out. Did you watch the American game? They had 35 shots. You call that half full? What the Hell is half empty? 100 shots? Results against top teams - show me one win in competition against the top teams in the world, and I'm not talking friendlies or half-attended exhibition tournaments where people take half their team - show me ONE SINGLE WIN against a top 5 team (i.e "top ranked world teams") in actual serious playdown competition in a global tournament since he arrived (World Cup, Olympics, PanAm Games, etc). And when you can't find one in an entire DECADE, that's a clue that your statement is misleading. Golden boots and balls - No one on the WNT has ever won one in an actual World Championship. And even if I was referring to youth teams (which I wasn't - i.e. no one on a Pellerud women's team), Pellerud did not coach the U20. The Gold Cup and Peace Queen? That's pretty desperate. Playing weak opponents is no claim to fame or worthy achievement of any respectable Canadian coach or player. Woo hoo, we beat Haiti 11-1 and Thailand 7-0! GO [XXXX] GO! Greatest player in the world! Greatest coach in the world! Residence program - You're stating it was benefical for the players, which echoes what I said. And again no effect on results. For a coach at this level I consider meritous achievements performance related. Resources for the women's program - his predecessors hadn't.. - No one had ever been paid as royally, or even paid to do it before. Groundswell of players - You didn't say popularity and quality. You said groundswell of players. And the quality of the player pool is a direct result of the aging of the groundswell before he got here, and the work of thousands of great people across this country. --- We were a 3rd/4 group pool team before he got here, and he leaves us in exactly the same spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 So basically you are saying Pellerud was way better than Mitchell playing pretty well the same game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccertaxi Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 So Vic if I understand your arguments, you are saying that there been no advancements at all to the women's program in the last 9 years and that it is exactly in the same place it was in 1999??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted August 21, 2008 Author Share Posted August 21, 2008 ^ of course we have had advancements. And we've also had advancements at every level of girls/womens's soccer in this country from house league to school to competitive to rep to regional to provincial to national. I've seen age and tier levels improve almost every single year since the program was formed. Bigger, faster and stronger is simply human nature and the evolution of an emerging sport. And yes, compared to the rest of the world, we are exactly where we were a decade ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 quote:Originally posted by The Ref ^Wasn't the U20 team coached by Ian Bridge? In all your objectivity or lack thereof you should also list all Pellerud failures. That post was cut and paste from the CSA website as I indicated in my intro. You don't like the content, complain to the CSA, don't impugn me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Richard That post was cut and paste from the CSA website as I indicated in my intro. You don't like the content, complain to the CSA, don't impugn me. But YOU made the claim to support Pellerud. You should have checked the correctness of the material beforehand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 ^ Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trillium Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Richard ^ Huh? Richard you knew the material was misleading and or downright wrong in context of Peleruds players palying for him accomplishing significant milestones. Once again you twist and turn facts and half facts around .. then when your called out you can only say Huh ? Deep thinking from the lotus land once again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 ^ Where did I suggest the data I posted was anything more than an informative cut and paste from the CSA website? Any other implication was inside your head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Richard ^ Huh? I guess you just checked how long your nose has grown! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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