The Ref Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 This is the most recent rating of world men's soccer leagues by the IFHSS http://www.iffhs.de/?f883e4ac0bdc402fc0d85b05fdcdc3bfcdc0aec70aee15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 New Zealand > MLS ???? Argentina > England ???? Nope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 Lebanese league better than the Czech league? Zimbabwe, Iraq and Angola above Denmark? Like leafdolfan said: Nope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Daniel Lebanese league better than the Czech league? Zimbabwe, Iraq and Angola above Denmark? Like leafdolfan said: Nope Is that an invitation to Ceres and Grizzly to get involve in this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 Argentina despite being one of my favourite leagues is not even the best league in South America, let alone the world. I'd go with: Europe: 1-3 Spain, England, Italy 4-5 Germany, France 6-10 Portugal, Holland, Russia, Turkey, Greece. South America: 1 Brasil 2 Argentina 3-4 Chile, Colombia 5-8 Ecuador, Uruguay, Peru, Paraguay 9-10 Bolivia, Venezuala North America: 1 Mexico 2-3 MLS, Costa Rica 4-5 Honduras, Guatemala Americas: 1 Brasil 2 Argentina 3 Mexico 4-5 Chile, Colombia 6-10 Ecuador, MLS, Uruguay, Peru, Paraguay World: 1-3 Spain, England, Italy 4-5 Germany, France 6-7 Brasil, Portugal 8-12 Holland, Russia, Turkey, Greece, Argentina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 quote:Originally posted by jpg75 Argentina despite being one of my favourite leagues is not even the best league in South America. I'd go with: Europe: 1-3 Spain, England, Italy 4-5 Germany, France 6-10 Portugal, Holland, Russia, Turkey, Greece. South America: 1 Brasil 2 Argentina 3-4 Chile, Colombia 5-8 Ecuador, Uruguay, Peru, Paraguay 9-10 Bolivia, Venezuala I agree with most of your rankings, but how could you group Italy with Spain and England and yet still be able to separate Brasil and Argentina?? The UEFA coefficient system is a useful tool to compare Europe's top leagues (though I don't think it does a great job ranking leagues outside the top 6-8) and it clearly shows that Serie "A" has come way down recently. In South America no such tool exists (that I know of). But off the top of my head I recall more successful Argentine clubs in Copa Libertadors and Copa Sudamericana the last few years than I do Brasilian ones. But Brasil might have slightly more depth. So there's nothing between them IMO. Also Colombia's league is a lot stronger than Chile's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 ^ I think Italy is still closer to England and Spain then it is to Germany and France. They've fallen flat a bit the past couple of years, but i view it as a blip since they were arguably the best league for parts of the last decade or so. Brasil has been more consistent than Argentina in their SA league results. Their record head-to-head also favours Brasil and they also have dominated against Mexican oppostion moreso than the Argentines. I disagree with the Colombia being far ahead of the Chilean. I'll give you that it might be a bit better and i should probably swap them in the order i had listed. I watch both leagues on GolTV and TVChile and the top teams in Chile are quality, Colombia may have more depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpok Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 before i reply, what parameters are you using to rate the leagues (lets concentrate on europe first) ? and when you saying england spain italy ... are you including lower divisions? and is IFFHS rating based on club performance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted July 16, 2008 Author Share Posted July 16, 2008 From what I understand some of the factors used by the IFHSS include: performance of national teams organization and planning schedulings performance of local players abroad number of players transferences to abroad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 My understanding of the IFFHS ranking is that they lean heavily on international club tournaments to assess league strength. This is especially apparent when looking at their club rankings. No matter, this whole exercise is subjective because it is very difficult to compare leagues where clubs rarely play one another and when they do, it is usually the top 3-5 teams in the league. That favours the smaller pro leagues with 3-5 high quality teams. At the same time, it penalizes leagues with a high degree of parity but where the top 3-5 teams are not significantly better than the top teams in a smaller league (Brazil, England, and Germany come to mind as leagues that do not get full credit). On a regional basis, Latin American countries, Argentina Brazil, and Mexico, get pushed higher because their leagues are substantially better than the leagues of other countries in Latin America. Starting from jpg75's ranking, I would rank Brazil ahead of France and Argentina ahead of Portugal. I would do that strictly on the basis of depth. Two of the Brazilian sides that competed in the recent Copa Libertadores are currently in the Brazilian League relegation zone. That includes finalist, Fluminense. While somewhat subjective, I tend to think that Brazil presently has the strongest second division in the World. Mega club, Corinthians and last year's Copa Libertadores competitor, Parana Clube (presently in 16th position) currently are in Brazil's second division. England's depth of quality among teams in the EPL is far better in my opinion than either Spain or Italy. I would place Germany solidly fourth on the basis of its depth. I also believe Russia and Turkey to be Stronger than Holland. Greece would be comparable to Holland. It will also be interesting how the relative strength of these leagues evolve. Five years from now, I don't think the rankings will be the same. I see England and Spain holding, Italy declining some and Germany and Brazil strengthening further. The strength of the MLS will depend on decisions made by the league. If it follows its current path, I doubt it will make much progress as competition from other leagues strengthens, especially with the decline of the US dollar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpok Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 in my opinion quality of the facilities, youth development, relationship with supports and financial stability should be heavily considered in determining ratings. germany, spain and england are my top three, i love italian league and the quality of players italy produces, but i can't put seria a even in my top five - the league is a joke at the moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamonty Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 Sweden = India (tied for 89th)??? Do they even have a domestic pro league in India? Norway, which in my eyes is better than Sweden, ranks 98th! There are sites out there who present much better data & results although do not have a FIFA stamp of approval. Take this for example: http://jfoot.neuf.fr/ecrav.html (home page is http://jfoot.neuf.fr/) Note: Norway did rank above Sweden in 2008. Despite that the webdesign looks like circa 1998, I would trust their data far more than that drabble put out by the IFFHS. There is also something called the Recreational Sport Soccer Statistics Foundation. http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/iffhs-ranking.html With reference to IFFHS: quote: Let it suffice to say here that: 1) I have nothing to do with this ranking; 2) I do not think the algorithm is particularly brilliant; 3) I do not think there is any realistic, algorithmic method for ranking clubs worldwide; 4) any suggestions on the method should be sent to Dr. Alfredo W. Pöge, President of the IFFHS, Final note: apparently, there is an Indian Football league. from http://www.indianfootball.com/index1.html: quote:This season the semi-professional National Football League has been turned into the professional I-League with 10 teams from across India taking part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 quote:Originally posted by mpok before i reply, what parameters are you using to rate the leagues (lets concentrate on europe first) ? and when you saying england spain italy ... are you including lower divisions? and is IFFHS rating based on club performance? I went purely from watching each league (top division) on TV. I typically spend alot of my mornings and afternoons on the weekend watching soccer. A few EPL, La Liga, Serie A and German Bundesliga games each weekend. The odd French match on Setanta, the odd Dutch match streamed, a number of Greek matches from 2 greek channels. Brasilian games on Globo, Argentine on FSWC, Mexican on TV Azteca, Colombian, Uruguayan, Ecuadorian, Honduran and Guatemalan on GolTV, Chilean on TVChile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje That favours the smaller pro leagues with 3-5 high quality teams. At the same time, it penalizes leagues with a high degree of parity but where the top 3-5 teams are not significantly better than the top teams in a smaller league (Brazil, England, and Germany come to mind as leagues that do not get full credit). England has parity in the top-flight? [:0] There was a recent in-depth study measuring parity of top leagues in Europe and England ranked dead-last. Wish I still had the link to it. I have to say that I agree with that study. I mean its the same teams finshing in the top 4 every bloody season! Spain and Italy have more depth and its easier for those countries since they produce more local talent than England, plus they have fewer restrictions on importing non-EU players. I'm not saying that Italy's 15th place team >> England's #15. I'm saying that the difference b/w England's Champions League participants and their bottom teams is big compared to Italy (or any league I can think of). Even Holland and Portugal have more parity than England now. quote: Two of the Brazilian sides that competed in the recent Copa Libertadores are currently in the Brazilian League relegation zone. That includes finalist, Fluminense. Fluminense are only in the relegation-zone because they competed in the Copa Libertadores (and the fact that the season just began). By the end of the season they'll obviously be positioned in or near the Copa Libertadores qualifying spots. Argentine clubs are also at a disadvantage in the Copa Libertadores for two reasons: 1) wheras in Brasil, the qualifying clubs are based on the previous season, in Argentina is partly based on what happened 2 years earlier (e.g. qualifiers for the Copa Libertadores 2009 is based on Apertura 2007 season). And because the clubs are so up-and-down in latin america, by the time they actually participate in the Copa Lib. they could be one of the worse teams in Argentina (e.g. Arsenal). (It's also the case with Mexico that their 3 representatives in Copa Libertadors are not necessarily the best 3 teams in Mexico from the previous season). 2) While Brasilian clubs are playing relatively meaningless domestic matches (state championships) during the Copa Lib., Argentine clubs must balance the Copa Libertadores with their important league matches on the weekend (Argentine season begins in February, while Braslian season begins in mid-May). Meanwhile, Mexican clubs league matches aren't that important either because their champions are determined in a playoff. So Mexican clubs can focus 90% on Copa Libertadores, like in Brasil. quote: England's depth of quality among teams in the EPL is far better in my opinion than either Spain or Italy. I would place Germany solidly fourth on the basis of its depth. Not sure what you are basing this on. Spain dominates the UEFA Cup. Meanwhile England clubs struggle in that competition. [?] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 quote:Originally posted by amacpher England has parity in the top-flight? [:0] There was a recent in-depth study measuring parity of top leagues in Europe and England ranked dead-last. Wish I still had the link to it. I have to say that I agree with that study. I mean its the same teams finshing in the top 4 every bloody season! Spain and Italy have more depth and its easier for those countries since they produce more local talent than England, plus they have fewer restrictions on importing non-EU players. Okay, I crunched some numbers to back-up my thought. The following are the point totals of the first-place team in each of the last 5 seasons (beginning with 2003/4 and ending with 2007/8): (* == only 34 games played) England: 90, 95, 91, 89, 87 Spain: 77, 84, 82, 76, 85 Italy: 82*, 86, 91, 97, 85 The point-totals of the 4th place team/final CL qualifying spot: England: 60, 61, 67, 68, 76 Spain: 70, 62, 68, 66, 64 Italy: 59*, 62, 58, 61, 66 The point-totals of the 17th-place team/points required for survival: England: 39, 34, 38, 38, 36 Spain: 42, 39, 40, 40, 43 Italy: 32*, 42, 32, 40, 37 Mid-table spread (ie. the point difference between the final CL spot and the relegation zone): England: 21, 27, 29, 30, 40 Spain: 28, 23, 28, 26, 21 Italy: 27*, 20, 26, 21, 29 The following conclusions are quite clear: - England's Big-4 are separating themselves further from the rest of the pack. - Spain has the most parity, followed closely by Italy. "EPL" and "parity" should never be mentioned in the same sentence again. - The trend in England is worrisome. The mid-table is almost twice as stretched-out as 5 years ago and getting worse every season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamonty Posted July 18, 2008 Share Posted July 18, 2008 Good analysis amacpher. That is actually quite telling statistics and a clever means of comparing leagues. Are there any stats nuts or discussion topics where this kind of stuff gets discussed much more? On another stat topic: I heard a podcast the other week (The Footy show perhaps) that had stats on the completion rate of passes by Xavi (I think) being upwards of 98% in the EUROfinal. That is the type of stuff that one never obvious thinks about while watching matches but makes for excellent watercooler fodder the day after. Where to find more? Esp. about the CMNT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 quote:Originally posted by The Ref This is the most recent rating of world men's soccer leagues by the IFHSS http://www.iffhs.de/?f883e4ac0bdc402fc0d85b05fdcdc3bfcdc0aec70aee15 Actually these rankings look a little more realistic today. [8D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJB Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 The run MLS teams had in Champions League Qualifying should knock them down the pecking order in CONCACAF. I'd be one to argue that it also moves USL up a notch or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 Got to watch games from Russia, Brazil and Ecuador this weekend (some repeats) and must say the most attractive was Russia. CSKA winning away to Lokomotiv, some real talent there and an attractive style. Got me thinking that those defending that Russia is in the top 6-8 in Europe are probably close to being right. As for parity, we have know for a long time that overall difficulty is higher in Spain. There is not parity in winning trophies like the league, as Barça and Madrid dominate and even teams amongst the top 10 in the entire history of the Spanish league have never won a league. But you look at the teams going down and those fighting for UEFA and you see how few points separate a fight against relegation from a fight to get into Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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