hectorj Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 Suriname is about to eliminate favoured Guyana. Bermuda could oust T and T. The semi final groupings could be so skewed that Jackula might even feel shame. In Asia, they wait until after the semi final round to seed the final two groups. Why can't we? We know the answer of course, but the FA's of the affected countries should be complaining loudly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOcanadafan Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 Yes, Asia has it right to wait to do the seeding. Although FIFA won't do anything now, as it was obvious when the format was announced that it was corrupt (to do seedings based on FIFA ranking on some random month that had T&T at its highest) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeltfc91 Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 It definetly does need to be changed... - Teams like T&T have one bad game and its over - 2/3 of the teams play less than 4 games This is how it should be: - There should be 7 groups of 5 teams - Play home and away against each team (8 games each) - 7 Winners go on - 7 winners play home and away series against each other (12 games each) - Top 3 make it, 4th goes to a playoff This way every team gets to play some games and maybe the minnows will score 1 or 2 goals Only problem is that 20 games is more than the 18 games they play now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themodelcitizen Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 quote:Originally posted by michaeltfc91 It definetly does need to be changed... - Teams like T&T have one bad game and its over - 2/3 of the teams play less than 4 games This is how it should be: - There should be 7 groups of 5 teams - Play home and away against each team (8 games each) - 7 Winners go on - 7 winners play home and away series against each other (12 games each) - Top 3 make it, 4th goes to a playoff This way every team gets to play some games and maybe the minnows will score 1 or 2 goals Only problem is that 20 games is more than the 18 games they play now I think one of the reasons for the current preliminary round with weaker teams is that their FAs can't really afford 4 away games or so. Wasn't there an issue ahead of either 2002 or 2006 about Barbados (I think) being able to afford all of their away games in the semifinal round? In the end they made it, but I think by the skin of their teeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 quote:Originally posted by michaeltfc91 - Play home and away against each team (8 games each) - 7 Winners go on - 7 winners play home and away series against each other (12 games each) - Top 3 make it, 4th goes to a playoff This way every team gets to play some games and maybe the minnows will score 1 or 2 goals Only problem is that 20 games is more than the 18 games they play now The problem with that scenario is: 1) Money - many of the smaller sides in the regions don't have the financial resources to accommodate their players and compete in a long drawn out affair. It has happened in the past where the US had to cover the expenses of an opponent so that they could travel to the US to play them. It doesn't make for fair competition when things like that happen. The compromise to your scenario might be a prelim round consisting of 12 groups of three teams. But we use to have that already in the past. 2) The makeup of Concacaf - Unlike the other confederations in the world ( aside from Oceania), Concacaf is different. The vast majority of the 35 nations are sides that, due to populations size, economic reasons, demographics etc, cant realistically measure up in any way with the top sides ( ie.: a nation of 60K people versus a nation of 150 mill or 300 mill). As such, they probably have realistic expectations themselves about their fate. So from a fans perspective, I don't see how the game is best served and promoted ( in US and Can for example) by having most of the games against these kind of sides. Dunno about you, But even I, am not really interested in seeing more games like the last one that we saw against St Vincent although acknowledge that everyone should be given a fair chance. Your scenario works in Europe because the true minnows are no more than maybe half a dozen sides and travel is much much shorter and cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeltfc91 Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 ^^^^^^^^ You are right, but then why are the minnows trying to qualify if they know that if they make the hex they can't even participate in it.This means they expect to lose and have no chance to qualify anyways because they can't play games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 quote:Originally posted by michaeltfc91 ^^^^^^^^ You are right, but then why are the minnows trying to qualify if they know that if they make the hex they can't even participate in it. Its the principle. Every nation has the right to compete, you cant exclude them. Every now and then they do produce a Shawn Goater or George Weah. You cant deny players of this quality their right to represent their nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 I've got one: The bottom 11 teams are drawn against the next from bottom 11 for home and away playoffs, with the 13th ranked team getting a bye. After that round rankings are adjusted, and the winners (plus the team with a bye) are drawn against the top 12 in home and away playoffs. The rankings are again updated, and the 12 series winners are drawn into 2 groups of 6, with the top 3 in each group moving on. The six teams remaining partake in one final group with top three advancing and the fourth entering a playoff. The key is to USE CURRENT RANKINGS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nazzer Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Scottie I've got one: The bottom 11 teams are drawn against the next from bottom 11 for home and away playoffs, with the 13th ranked team getting a bye. After that round rankings are adjusted, and the winners (plus the team with a bye) are drawn against the top 12 in home and away playoffs. The rankings are again updated, and the 12 series winners are drawn into 2 groups of 6, with the top 3 in each group moving on. The six teams remaining partake in one final group with top three advancing and the fourth entering a playoff. The key is to USE CURRENT RANKINGS! Only problem with that is there are 24 matchdays. 35 teams. Top 5 get a bye to 2nd round. 1st round- teams ranked 6-20 drawn against teams ranked 21-35, winners advance. (2 matchdays) 2nd round- 20 remaining teams drawn into 5 groups of four. Home and away series, with the top 2 of each group advancing. (6 matchdays) 3rd round- 10 teams drawn into 2 groups. Home and away series. (8 matchdays). Group winners advance to world cup. secondplaces playoff for third position with loser going to playoff vs CONMEBOL. If the issue is with the small nations being able to afford an extended qualifying campaign, which countries in particular could afford it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 I believe that if you incorparate the FIFA rankings into the equation to devise a WC format, you are asking for trouble. Because then you have to consider, among other things, what ranking date or point in time to pick. The rankings are skewed to favour the smaller sides who are able to play a lot friendlies and prep matches for the simple reason that they are not burdened with having pro players based overseas. And, many of these matches can be organized much more easily due to minimal travel, available facilities and limited organization required. If you need to rank teams, I would prefer using past records or performances in WCQ rather than a system of questionable methodolgy such as the FIFA rankings. I am OK with the prelim round as it stands today. But its after that that I have some major issues with. I see no need to have semi final round and a hex. One round with two groups would suffice and ensure a suffient number of games played for everybody. You might consider looking for ways to pair this down to 10 teams perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonovision Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 There's not much of an advantage in going from 12 to 10 teams if you still want to have two groups, because a 5-team group can't all play on the same day. So you need the same number of match days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 quote:Originally posted by jonovision There's not much of an advantage in going from 12 to 10 teams if you still want to have two groups, because a 5-team group can't all play on the same day. So you need the same number of match days. Sure that would be ideal, but is it absolutely necessary to have the same number of match days ( and all play at the same time) if you play over a 12-18 month period instead of teh current 3-4 month period that applies in teh semi final round? So what if you cant all play at the same time. besides, most dates on the fifa calendar ( except for August and Nov) are grouped together. you have five teams in group, four play and one gets a bye. On the next calendar date a different one gets a bye. The bye team could take advantage of the fifa date by playing a friendly Eventually everyone will have played the same number of games ( ie.: eight games) and it should be no problem completing that well within the 24 match days. We have a similar situation with the Voyageurs cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 The system is fine, it just needs to go to a double-hex instead of the semi-final round. Two groups of 6 teams, 10 games each, top team qualifies, second place teams face off for direct/half place. Easy, simple, give everyone a chance. What this means, however, is that the "marquee" matchup, US-Mexico, never happens in qualifying. This adds 4 games to the semi-final round but eliminates the 10 games from the Hex (so a net of 6 games less). Sample groups (total rankings for both = 39): Group A Mexico (1) Canada (4) Costa Rica (5) Jamaica (8) Cuba (9) Suriname (12) Group B USA (2) Honduras (3) T&T (6) Guatemala (7) Haiti (10) El Salvador (11) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonovision Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 I like Daniel's idea. But anything is better than what we have now. Costa Rica could qualify for the playoff position (4th in hex) without beating any team ranked higher than the high eighties in the FIFA rankings in their entire qualifying campaign (I'm assuming Guat or T&T would qualify along with USA from Group A). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Daniel The system is fine, it just needs to go to a double-hex instead of the semi-final round. Two groups of 6 teams, 10 games each, top team qualifies, second place teams face off for direct/half place. Easy, simple, give everyone a chance. What this means, however, is that the "marquee" matchup, US-Mexico, never happens in qualifying. This adds 4 games to the semi-final round but eliminates the 10 games from the Hex (so a net of 6 games less). Sample groups (total rankings for both = 39): Group A Mexico (1) Canada (4) Costa Rica (5) Jamaica (8) Cuba (9) Suriname (12) Group B USA (2) Honduras (3) T&T (6) Guatemala (7) Haiti (10) El Salvador (11) So if CONCACAF value this "marquee" match up over fairness, they could give buys to the countries who either consistently qualify for round 2 (US, MEX, CAN, HON, GUA, T&T, JAM, CR, HAI) or just take the top 8 FIFA ranked countries, and then use round one to determine which two teams will enter the single group of ten. This puts us on par with our SA fourth place rival in terms of competitive prep, and makes sure there is *NO* manipulation of the groups at the final stage. Because I could see Jack sorting it out so Honduras and Guatemala switch spots with Cuba & Suriname in Daniel's example. [}][}] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Daniel The system is fine, it just needs to go to a double-hex instead of the semi-final round. Two groups of 6 teams, 10 games each, top team qualifies, second place teams face off for direct/half place. Easy, simple, give everyone a chance. What this means, however, is that the "marquee" matchup, US-Mexico, never happens in qualifying. This adds 4 games to the semi-final round but eliminates the 10 games from the Hex (so a net of 6 games less). Sample groups (total rankings for both = 39): Group A Mexico (1) Canada (4) Costa Rica (5) Jamaica (8) Cuba (9) Suriname (12) Group B USA (2) Honduras (3) T&T (6) Guatemala (7) Haiti (10) El Salvador (11) Thats exactly what I have been hoping for. If they were smart, they realize that that much sought Mex-USA could occur in the Gold Cup. That would add some value to that tournament Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Free kick Thats exactly what I have been hoping for. If they were smart, they realize that that much sought Mex-USA could occur in the Gold Cup. That would add some value to that tournament And it doesn't make them any money, really, at WCQ. It's not like there's a dearth of USA-Mexico games... What the double-hex does, though, is eliminate many teams rather early. As a couple of slip-ups in your 2-4 first games means you're out of it and still have 6+ to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 I'd be curious to know what format is/has been favoured by the CSA in past? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javier Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 to me the top 12 teams should play in 2 groups of 6 teams mex, usa, can, hond , panama, t&t, el salvador, guatemala, jamaica, cuba, haiti,costa rica or the teams thay played in a world cup before they get to group anyway i think a 8 teams gruop with mexico, usa, can, honduras, jamaica, t&t, panama, costa rica, should be even for everyone to me if we the team that got screwed was mexico, thats why the got erikson, i think that the 2 that can scape from the mexc, can, hond, jamaica, will get to the world cup plus USA, 4 place will be killed by the 5 th of southamerica, to me the only teams now that can be complicated to southamerica could be mex, usa, can, hon, and panama , and panama is already out of it regarxs from BS AS , ARGENTINA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bxl Boy Posted June 24, 2008 Share Posted June 24, 2008 The problem, in my opinion, is more the road to the Hex than the Hex itself. Maybe we could try that. (35 teams in the Concacaf) 1st round : Home and away between teams ranked from 20 to 35 (8 games) 2nd round : Home and away between teams ranked 10 to 19 + 8 qualified 1st round (9 games) 3rd round : 6 groups of three teams (1-9 + 9 qualifiers = 18 teams), the winner goes to the Hex 4th round : The Hex (I don't like two groups like in Asia because with so few teams to the WC, it depends too much on who you have in your group) For the teams that make most chances to go to the world cup (including Canada and even Jamaïca), it will be 14 games (4 less than actually), for a mid-ranked 16, for a minnow 18 Yes, Canada can end up in a group of three with Panama and Salvador, but Panama had to beat Salvador this time, and it could have been Canada too... The pots for the 3rd round, this time, could have been : Pot 1 : USA, Mexico, Costa Rica, T&T, Honduras, Canada Pot 2 : Panama, Haïti, Cuba, SVG, Guyana, Jamaïca Pot 3 : Guatemala, Barbados, Bermuda, Salvador, Antigua-and-Barbuda, Surinam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bxl Boy Posted June 24, 2008 Share Posted June 24, 2008 Another thing : Concacaf should have it's own ranking, only counting official matches between Concacaf countries (so, it would be based on World Cup Qualifiers + Gold Cup) The Fifa ranking is really inaccurate for our confederation, looking at the changes (dramatical ones) between november and now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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