Gerba released by FC Ingolstadt

[Grizzly]

You are not being honest at all nor are you just stating player's opinions (I have yet to see any quotes or links to articles). You take whatever facts or opinions support your argument and ignore everything else. You are a troll because your prime reason for being here is not to post about Canadian soccer but to post about Danish soccer and try and convince everyone how great it is. I have taken a look at the lineup of AGF Aarhus and it is not very impressive, seems to be below the quality of a lower table MLS team. It is mostly domestic players who have never played outside of Denmark. You have two guys with rather limited Bundesliga experience. Your new signing Nando Rafael is the biggest name on the club and he is not a very big name indeed. Yes he did have moderate success early in his career at Hertha Berlin mostly as a substitute. Since he transferred to Moenchengladbach his career has mostly declined. Last year in the 2nd Bundesliga he only started one game and was a substitute in 11 other games. I will admit he has a stronger history than Gerba (though the rest of your team does not) but he is basically in the same situation as Gerba, ie. no other 2nd Bundesliga team picked either of them up. Once again you try and pick the biggest name at your team and try to present him as typical of the level and this biggest name on your team is not very impressive either.

I really doubt that very many people here really care much about what your opinion of the Danish league's level is. I certainly do not. The only thing people here care about is how our players that play there are doing. There is no reason to be constantly posting about how great the Danish league is and how MLS and the Scottish league don't measure up. I don't go on Danish forums and post about how poor the league is or how certain of your players could never make it in MLS so there is no reason for you to do that here. Post the pertinent info about our players and you will be popular here. If you want to post about the Danish league then you should go find a Danish soccer forum to post on.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

Guys, we have a poster from Denmark who posts here to inform us about Canadian players in Denmark.

Whether in this thread or others, show him some courtesy.

Ceres, thanks for the updates.

If he or any other poster wants courtesy or respect then they should show that to others regardless of where they are from or what inside information they can provide. Coming to this forum and insulting our leagues and players is not doing that especially when his posts are full of faulty logic and inaccuracies. Ceres has been fully deserving of whatever comments he has gotten from other posters here including myself. I am happy to get information from people in many countries but if they are going to be pricks at the same time then I would rather they not post here. Note that pretty much every other poster here from countries such as Germany, Holland and Norway have posted here with class and have been in turn well treated by the Voyageurs.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

If he or any other poster wants courtesy or respect then they should show that to others regardless of where they are from or what inside information they can provide. Coming to this forum and insulting our leagues and players is not doing that especially when his posts are full of faulty logic and inaccuracies. Ceres has been fully deserving of whatever comments he has gotten from other posters here including myself. I am happy to get information from people in many countries but if they are going to be pricks at the same time then I would rather they not post here. Note that pretty much every other poster here from countries such as Germany, Holland and Norway have posted here with class and have been in turn well treated by the Voyageurs.

I honestly don't see anything insulting in his comments. He's from Denmark and may think the Danish league is better than it is. Not surprising.

He doesn't think Gerba is good enough. He's not the first.

That's not being insulting.

One of the main reason people have been reluctant to join this board has been personal attacks.

This isn't directed at any specific individual. I'm simply saying let's try and show some courtesy and refrain from personal attacks. That goes for every person and every thread.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

I honestly don't see anything insulting in his comments. He's from Denmark and may think the Danish league is better than it is. Not surprising.

He doesn't think Gerba is good enough. He's not the first.

That's not being insulting.

One of the main reason people have been reluctant to join this board has been personal attacks.

This isn't directed at any specific individual. I'm simply saying let's try and show some courtesy and refrain from personal attacks. That goes for every person and every thread.

Agree, I've never seen much disrespect in Ceres posts, can't see what the problem is. Maybe his views are too pro-Danish but we certainly can't blame him when we look at the historic of this forum...

[DigzTFC]

I have no problem with his views on Gerba at all. I have a problem with him hijacking this thread for his pro-Danish remarks. What does this particular thread have to do with the Danish league? What is his motivation here? He's not canadian or a Canada supporter. He's a guy who posts about Canadian players. I don't go to other national team's forums and talk about their leagues or players.

Whats the mandate of this board? Is it a supporters forum for Canada or a discussion forum like BigSoccer? I don't feel like reading about everything Canadian is inferior on Canada Day.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

I honestly don't see anything insulting in his comments. He's from Denmark and may think the Danish league is better than it is. Not surprising.

He doesn't think Gerba is good enough. He's not the first.

That's not being insulting.

One of the main reason people have been reluctant to join this board has been personal attacks.

This isn't directed at any specific individual. I'm simply saying let's try and show some courtesy and refrain from personal attacks. That goes for every person and every thread.

If I or anyone else goes to the forum of another country and start stating their league is poor and certain players are poor and then back it up with ridiculous arguments that are not based on fact I don't think I will be well received. There is no reason we have to accept that from Ceres either. He has turned several threads into threads about the Danish league which was exactly the same thing that happened when he was on the forum a few months ago. He is an agenda poster only here with the purpose of spreading his views about the Danish league. If good, constructive posters are reluctant to join the board (I have seen no evidence of this) then we might have to modify our behaviour but if agenda posters and trolls are scared away then good riddance. Having Ceres on the board with his present posting style is similar to letting a group of Jamaicans or Hondurans sit in the Voyageurs section at our home games.

[Aljarov]

Ceres, on the subject of transfer fees....you've got to realise that being an EU nation automatically makes your player values higher. I mean, look at the price of an English player?! The price of an American, or Canadian player is fairly low, unless they have an EU passport (like De Guzman for example). Even so, don't forget MLS just sold Altidore to Villareal for $10m at 18 years old.

I think you underestimate MLS, I don't think there's any question of that. Adrian Cann is not MLS quality. I can say that in all honesty. Maybe he'll develop - maybe he's like Marco Velez and will be a late bloomer. I think, at best, he's a borderline talent in this league. Hell, with all Toronto's domestic restrictions, even they weren't interested in him.

I know you (and the Danish HR for the game I work on - Football Manager) like to knock MLS and also use Wade Barrett as a great example of why the Superliga is better than MLS...well, Barrett really came into his own after he came back. I guess he didn't settle - let's face it, it's a fairly big culture shock to go from California to Denmark. It even took him a while to get his feet when he got back here, but he's developed into a strong player and a real leader for his club, probably in part due to his experiences abroad. His failure to settle doesn't mean MLS is crap...it means one player didn't make it work. Happens all the time.

Likewise, I have similar conversations about guys that have come here, that have a track record of playing in lower leagues - Terry Cooke (Colorado), John Thorrington (Chicago), Kenny Deuchar (RSL), Tom McManus (Colorado)...and sometimes, the change of scenery, the new league or even the league itself just makes it work. By the same token, some of the guys who have come out here and been expected to do well due to international experience or playign for big name clubs just doesn't work out....examples there would be Peter Canero (Scottish international), Matias Donnet (Boca Jrs player), Sergio Galvan Rey (old 'King of Goals'), Markus Schopp (storied Austrian Int'l), Andy Herzog (Austrian legend), Paolo Wanchope (CR legend sucked big time here), Pascal Bedrossian (career Ligue 1 player), Jose Abundis (accomplished MFL striker), Lubos Reiter (Slovak international), Ronald Wattereus (Veteran Dutch keeper), Aitor Karana (Ex Marid and Spanish Int'l), Hong Myung Bo (S. Korean legend) as well as a TON of internationals from around CONCACAF nations like Guatemala, Costa Rica, Jamaica, Brown and Honduras (Roberto Brown, Ricardo Phillips - PAN, Jermaine Hue, Khari Stephenson, Robert Scarlett, Daryyl Powell - JAM), Samuel Caballero, Carlos Pavon, Milton Reyes - Honduras, Gustavo Cabrera, Freddy Garcia, Mario Rodruiguez, Pando Ramirez - GUAT).

There's also a crop of current guys that are borderline washouts in this league, all with excellent pedigree - Laurent Robert (ex-French Int'l), Tomasz Frankowski (current polish int'l), Andy Herron (CR star striker)...plenty more.

My point is all of the above SHOULD have been big players in this league but for whatever reason didn't work out so well. Wade Barrett is not a yardstick for MLS vs Superliga.

What you need to consider is that a full stegnth US MNT squad probably has 7 potential starters from MLS (Edu, Ching, Conrad, Mastroeni, Bornstein, Clark, Donovan, and then some regular back ups like Guzan, Hejduk, Drew Moor, Marvell Wynee, Sacha Kljestan, Twellman, Ralston, Beckerman and so on).

A full stregnth US MNT has Ching, Donovan and either Mastroeni/Edu start. Don't forget in the last 12 months, MLS has also sold US MNT starter Clint Dempsey, and future stars Freddy Adu, Josy Altidore and Eddie Johnson to Fulham, Benfica, Villareal and Fulham respectively.

Given the US uis ranked #21, adn Denmark #33, that the US has the majority of it's player pool based in MLS as opposed to abroad (liek Denmark) that would suggest the domestic talent in MLS is actually higher than Denmark.

Anyways, for all this posturing...my estimation is that Denmark's league and MLS are probably fairly close in standard. I maintain that MLS teams are top-middle CCC (Div 2) up to lower-level EPL in England standard. I think MLS is better than the SPL aside from Celtic and Rangers.

It's going to be tough for MLS to gain the respect I think it is due at this point for the real progress it's made over the [past 7 years I've been watching (after moving from England) until it is able to shine in Continental competition. With the advent of the CONCACAF Champion's League....and a place at the Club World Cup up for grabs...at least that possibility exists now. If only they could score a berth in the Copa Liberatadores it would really help.

[Ceres]

quote:Originally posted by DigzTFC

I have no problem with his views on Gerba at all. I have a problem with him hijacking this thread for his pro-Danish remarks. What does this particular thread have to do with the Danish league? What is his motivation here? He's not canadian or a Canada supporter. He's a guy who posts about Canadian players..

Well, have this in mind when you read my posts that it's Grizzly being personal... more or less saying that I'm lying and have a personal agenda.... so I then either have to defend (not the danish league) but the actual facts that I was posting... or I could of course chose to get insulted and leave the forum, which is excatly what Grizzly is hoping for... Now its a bit of win-win for Grizzly because he's a Canadian forcing me to defend myself by writing about the Danish league as well as Gerba, which he then can use to make you belive that I'm only here to write about the Danish league..

.

[red card]

quote:Hell, with all Toronto's domestic restrictions, even they weren't interested in him.

this aspect of your rationale can be removed as Mo has shown and expressed little to no interest in bringing Canadians on board (his primary excuse is that they cost to much to transfer) + TFC got domestic requirements relaxed this year.

[jpg75]

So...how about that Ali Gerba guy we were talking about!? []

[Ceres]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

You are not being honest at all nor are you just stating player's opinions (I have yet to see any quotes or links to articles). You take whatever facts or opinions support your argument and ignore everything else. You are a troll because your prime reason for being here is not to post about Canadian soccer but to post about Danish soccer and try and convince everyone how great it is.

I know your game, I have been a moderator for several years.... Your just trying to make me angry to get rid of me, but it wont work..

I'm not goint to waste my time finding more links than this, but since you insist on keeping up with the personal insults, I unfortunately have to quote myself then :

quote:Originally posted by Ceres

As for the rest of your comments, then it funny how ppl like Free kick and you regard me as a troll, because unlike you, I do not get personal. I'm just writing a few facts and figures and what the players are saying... that training sessions and league games are more intense and competitive in Denmark in compare with MLS ....It's not my opinion, but the players opinion, so ther is really no reason to attack me for beliving the players more than I belive your personal opinion on this subject..

and then add the kind of link you asked for :

http://yanks-abroad.com/get.php?mode=content&id=1964

...and a danish article

http://www.randersfc.dk/index.php?afd=1&side=2719

Will John after having been signed by Randers FC :

"I have been on trial at Randers FC for 10 days and I'm more than happy with what I have seen and experienced. The level in Danish football is in my opinions higher than in America, for that reason alone that in Denmark the ball is the center of attention, and all take care to hold it on the ground. The technical level is very high, and I'm pleased with that," Will John says.

In danish :

quote:- Jeg har været til prøvetræning i Randers FC i 10 dage og er ovenud tilfreds med det, jeg har set og oplevet. Niveauet i dansk fodbold er i mine øjne højere end i amerikansk, alene af den grund at i Danmark er bolden i centrum, alle sørger for at holde den langs jorden. Det tekniske niveau er meget højt, og det har jeg det godt med, siger Will John.

Translation tool to make your own translation :

http://gramtrans.com/?uilang=en

.

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I have taken a look at the lineup of AGF Aarhus and it is not very impressive, seems to be below the quality of a lower table MLS team. It is mostly domestic players who have never played outside of Denmark. You have two guys with rather limited Bundesliga experience. Your new signing Nando Rafael is the biggest name on the club and he is not a very big name indeed. Yes he did have moderate success early in his career at Hertha Berlin mostly as a substitute. Since he transferred to Moenchengladbach his career has mostly declined. Last year in the 2nd Bundesliga he only started one game and was a substitute in 11 other games. I will admit he has a stronger history than Gerba (though the rest of your team does not)

So now the AGF squad has no players who has a stronger history than Gerba except for Nando Rafael, who you think has been moderately more successful than Gerba ... that the best joke all week..

Here is the Current squad, then ppl can make up their own mind if this is a team full of Gerbas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aarhus_Gymnastik_Forening#Current_squad

Perhaps I should add, that Graulund has been Danish league topscorer, (Just like Gerba ?) ... Persson and Kári Árnason have both won the swedish Championship (just like Gerba ?), Alex Valencia has been selected by TV2 Nettavisen and the big Norwegian newspaper VG as 'Tippeliga Player of the Year 2005 (Just like Gerba ?)... Ole Budtz was topscorer for Belgium side Cercle Brugge in 2003 (Just like Gerba ?)... Michael Lumb has been named the young "Shooting Star" of the autumn season 2007/08 by one of the big Danish newspapers, and has attracted actual offers from Ajax and Aston Villa this season (Just like Gerba ?)... Dennis Høegh has been on trial at Chelsea (Just like Gerba ?)... and then if you look at the transfer list I posted, you will notice that AGF actually just sold a 19-yo player by the name of Emil Lyng for a bigger fee than they paid for Nando Rafael, who you belive to be the biggest name on the club ?...

Well, lets see what he can do before making him better than he is just because he has played 103 Bundesliga games... Left winger Emil Lyng had actually never played a single league match for AGF before getting sold straigh from the bench to Franch top-flight side Lille for around US$ 850k ... as I said, more than AGF a few day after paid for Nando Rafael, I would give Rafael a bit of cedit though, having been on Kickers Bundesliga "team of the week" 4 times in his career (Which I guess you find moderately better than Gerba ?)..

.

[BrennanFan]

Gerba is much, much better than what his club trajectory suggests. He just needs a coach who believes in him. I hope he settles in San Jose, he could really do well there.

[Trident]

He's coming to Montreal.

[Cheeta]

quote:Originally posted by jpg75

So...how about that Ali Gerba guy we were talking about!? []

Who? Oh yeah.

Don't know. He's got to land on his feet and stick someplace. He's getting older and so hopefully is outgrowing some of the personality question marks which seem to work against him (which others have raised).

I think he should give MLS a chance even if it does mean taking a wee bit of a hit in the pocket book, and Toronto would be the perfect place to go on trial.

How many of those "bonus" international slots does Toronto lose next year? Trader Mo has to start seeing past the end of his pint glass, accept that quality Canadians are a rare commodity and pony up for the decent Canucks as they become available.

Doesn't matter if he thinks he can get the same quality for cheaper from country x,y, or z. He's needs quality Canadians and they cost more. Accept it. Or don't. Think we've already seen what TFC looks like when the club "cheaps out" on the Canadian talent.

Yup. Ali G should give TFC a chance and TFC should give Ali G a trial. Shame is he'll likely be coming into the squad as the team becomes depleted for WCQs and Olympic duty. Not the fairest chance coming in during so many other disruptions but it is what it is. Just have to make the most of it.

If it every happens...

[Ceres]

quote:Originally posted by Aljarov

Ceres, on the subject of transfer fees....you've got to realise that being an EU nation automatically makes your player values higher. I mean, look at the price of an English player?! The price of an American, or Canadian player is fairly low, unless they have an EU passport (like De Guzman for example). Even so, don't forget MLS just sold Altidore to Villareal for $10m at 18 years old.

I think you underestimate MLS, I don't think there's any question of that. Adrian Cann is not MLS quality. I can say that in all honesty. Maybe he'll develop - maybe he's like Marco Velez and will be a late bloomer. I think, at best, he's a borderline talent in this league. Hell, with all Toronto's domestic restrictions, even they weren't interested in him.

Actually we are able to watch MLS on Danish TV2 Sport now and then and it does confirm what you see when MLS player come to Europe. They always seem to lack even the most basic tactical skills. Of course some players also lack other skills.. Sometimes the flaws can fairly easily be corrected with some good coaching, other times like with Gerba ther was no real improvement to be seen, so they cut him lose... It's alway difficult to predict who they can work with and who is goint to fail.. Gerba was picked up by several teams in different leagues, so they could prabably see some unpolished talent, but non of them were able to help him improve or develop as much as needed, which also makes me belive that Gerba just dont have what it takes to reach a "European" top-flight level.. You should be happy about Issey Nakajima-Farran though... He has been improving all the time and I think he could soom be picked up by a Dutch top-flight team..

quote:Originally posted by Aljarov

Given the US uis ranked #21, adn Denmark #33, that the US has the majority of it's player pool based in MLS as opposed to abroad (liek Denmark) that would suggest the domestic talent in MLS is actually higher than Denmark.

The FIFA World ranking useless... a waste of time... The US mainly face much easier opponents that any European or South American NT... and beating up on easy opponents does not suggest the MLS to be of more quality than any European league what so ever, nor does it suggest the opposite... It's just useless in that respect..

Ther was one who mentioned that Denmark went crying to FIFA when the Danish League selection lost to the US... In reality it was the other way around...

You see, the Danish League NT is not an official NT and never has been... Non of the players get capped for their country and neither the Danish FA or FIFA accept these games as official NT games to be used on the FIFA world ranking... The US discovered this after the match when FIFA would not add the result to their World ranking (the USMNT have faced the League NT before in the past but never won, so this was the first time they discovered the "ranking" problem ).. The US then went crying to FIFA and Denmark about this... I dont know why the US feel the need to boost their ranking by beating some 3rd rate teams in the winter... Perhaps they should just ask for a real NT, with some real NT players the next time around...

.

[Ceres]

quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan

Gerba is much, much better than what his club trajectory suggests. He just needs a coach who believes in him. I hope he settles in San Jose, he could really do well there.

who are these teams Gerba has scored against for Canada ??... could it not be that they are mostly the "wrong" kind of opponents, so that you are getting the "wrong" kind of impression of him when he plays for the NT.. and not the other way around... When he played for Horsens he got to play all 90 minutes in 11 of the 15 games they used him, so he cant really use the excuse that the coach did not belive in him and he did not get a chance to show his worth..

,

[Aljarov]

Will John was talking up the Danish league because he was on trial...the kid was a washout here and I think most players on trial looking to get signed would be complimentary. Every player that has ever come to MLS says similar things on how suprisingly good it is, or that it's at least equivalent to blah blah blah league. That's hardly scientific fact.

As for the US beating up on weak opponents...well, due to the stregnth of the US side, they only had to play Barbados..who are no worse than 5th or 6th seeds in European qualifying competitions...let's not forget the mighty Faroes, Luxembourg, San Marino et al. The CONCACAF qualifying is much longer than European and really can't be compared like for like, but the FIFA rankings actually allow for the stregnth of the competition these days, not like it used to be, which is why Mex and US don't sit in the top 10 anymore, despite continuing to be of a similar stregnth as they have been.

Players like DOnovan and others playin MLS because it is a good league to get exposure for the national team - ok - DOnovan perhaps also plays here because he is a ***** and didn't like being away from home, but he's hardly the first player to do so.

Denmark has hardly seen the best MLS guys, and although moving abroad tends to raise the profile of a player - like Califf, Nguyen, Jeremiah White it doesn't make them great players. It's really apples and oranges, but you've not said anything that makes me believe for one minutes that Denmark is out-producing America/MLS in the way of talent. Sure, Americans tend to be tactically naive and coaching on the tactical level is not great here, but there's been a surprisingly high level of failure from noted international coaches in MLS who have either under-estimated the quality of players or the aptitude of their rivals...and I'll include Bruce Arena in that list, but it also includes Octavio Zambrango, Bora Milutinovic, Frank Stapleton, Walter Zenga, Carlos Quieroz, Eddie Firmani, Carlos Alberta Parreira, Alfonso Mondello and Hans Westerhoff - none of which had much success here. Some REALLY big names in there.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by Ceres

who are these teams Gerba has scored against for Canada ??... could it not be that they are mostly the "wrong" kind of opponents, so that you are getting the "wrong" kind of impression of him when he plays for the NT.. and not the other way around... When he played for Horsens he got to play all 90 minutes in 11 of the 15 games they used him, so he cant really use the excuse that the coach did not belive in him and he did not get a chance to show his worth..

,

That's the impression that I have from Gerba, I think his MNT play is kind to him. When I'm trying to evaluate the level of play of a canadian player I think club play is the most determinant thing. Why? More games, more coaches, different teamates, different styles of play, less chance of an "old boy network", etc.

That's why I've been sceptic about Gerba lately. The guy can't stick with a decent club in Europe for more than 6 months. His strike rate with our MNT is impressive but I think it's a bit misleading to evaluate him on that base (4 goals against SVG and one own goal against Guatemala that was wrongly credited to him). Before the SVG he was on a 5 games streak without a goal against pretty decent opposition. Maybe I'm wrong but I think Gerba is weaker than what his stats are suggesting.

[denis]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

That's the impression that I have from Gerba, I think his MNT play is kind to him. When I'm trying to evaluate the level of play of a canadian player I think club play is the most determinant thing. Why? More games, more coaches, different teamates, different styles of play, less chance of an "old boy network", etc.

That's why I've been sceptic about Gerba lately. The guy can't stick with a decent club in Europe for more than 6 months. His strike rate with our MNT is impressive but I think it's a bit misleading to evaluate him on that base (4 goals against SVG and one own goal against Guatemala that was wrongly credited to him). Before the SVG he was on a 5 games streak without a goal against pretty decent opposition. Maybe I'm wrong but I think Gerba is weaker than what his stats are suggesting.

He also scored against Guadeloupe. But I agree, Gerba excels against poor opposition (uls, Concacf minos) but will not be so effective against a defense the likes of Mexico’s or mid table euro leagues for that matter.

[Razcle]

Gerba should go to Montreal...however after that game against The Whitecaps...TFC needs all the help it can get putting the ball in the back of the net.

[Ceres]

quote:Originally posted by Aljarov

Will John was talking up the Danish league because he was on trial...

Correction, he had already signed when he was "talking up" Randers (and not really the Danish league)..

quote:Originally posted by Aljarov

As for the US beating up on weak opponents...well, due to the stregnth of the US side, they only had to play Barbados..who are no worse than 5th or 6th seeds in European qualifying competitions...

Return with your UEFA world ranking, when the US have had to faced team of the same quality as Spain, Sweden and N-Ireland (that beat both Sweden, Spain and Denmark) in a qualifying group...

quote:Originally posted by Aljarov

let's not forget the mighty Faroes, Luxembourg, San Marino et al....

You write about the Faroes and Luxembourg like they are minnows, as in the case of Guatemala ?..

Ther actually are som Faroes players having success in the Danish league, Luxembourg got Jeff Strasser playing French Ligue 1. for FC Metz and even Liechtenstein got some players in the Swiss Leaguea an a player in the Italian Serie A (Mario Frick) who is doing quite well at that level. The Guatemala NT captain Gustavo Adolfo Cabrera has on the other hand just agreed to sign a contract with my team AGF Aarhus, probably making him the first from his country signing with a top-flight European team the past 20 years. Though he is being told that he is to start out playing for the AGF 2nd team in the Danish 2nd division (3rd level) to prove his worth. Personally I do think he deserve a place in the first team, but then I'm not the coach.

quote:Originally posted by Aljarov

Denmark has hardly seen the best MLS guys, and although moving abroad tends to raise the profile of a player - like Califf, Nguyen, Jeremiah White it doesn't make them great players.

I think califf got it exactly right... Ther are some good players in the MLS, but the $$ is way to small for the more average-wage player, so the clubs simply cant keep the needed quality and depth in the squads to makes the training sessions and league games as intense and competitive as in Denmark, Belgium, Norway and so forth.. Grizzly was trying to make fun of the AGF squad by implying that it was a team of player who has no stronger history than Gerba.. but to be honest, half the AGF team have either won a championship in a Scandinavian league, played Bundesliga at some point, become club and league topscorers, or been selected as the "best of the best" in a season...

How often doest it happen that an MLS player who move to Europe actually manage to win a championship like califf, become league topscorer or even become 'player of the year' in a league like the Norwegian.. Gerba never even managed to become a regular starter, so either he is not half as good as some of you may think, or it's just twice as tought to make it in a top 20 league in Europe as you think it it..

quote:Originally posted by Aljarov

It's really apples and oranges, but you've not said anything that makes me believe for one minutes that Denmark is out-producing America/MLS in the way of talent. Sure, Americans tend to be tactically naive and coaching on the tactical level is not great here, but there's been a surprisingly high level of failure from noted international coaches in MLS who have either under-estimated the quality of players or the aptitude of their rivals...and I'll include Bruce Arena in that list, but it also includes Octavio Zambrango, Bora Milutinovic, Frank Stapleton, Walter Zenga, Carlos Quieroz, Eddie Firmani, Carlos Alberta Parreira, Alfonso Mondello and Hans Westerhoff - none of which had much success here. Some REALLY big names in there.

You need more than a few very good coaches from time to time, to keep the level up... Especially the youth coaches has to be top class and not just in a very few clubs... It's not really the managers at the top clubs of Denmark who are producing the talent in denmark... Danish soccer is really build like a giant iceberg. When your looking at it from outside, your actually only looking at a tiny insignificant looking tip sticking out of the water.. Which is the Superliga...

It is not only the danish league producing talents the likes of Agger (liverpool) and Christian Poulsen (Sevilla FC) (who were both among the nominee for UEFAs Team of the Year 2007, despite Agger being injured)

http://www.uefa.com/fanzone/TeamOfTheYear/2007/index.html

or a Martin Laursen (Aston Villa) who was in Sky Sports EPL Team of the Season :

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11979_3569135,00.html

The young talents are often sold from lower level teams and the bench of Superliga teams directly to the top clubs of Europe, like Bendtner (Arsenal), 17-yo Andreas Laudrup (son of Michael) who in now at Real Madrid, Kasper Schmeichel (son of.. you know ) or a Nikola Saric who has just been sold to Liverpool a few days ago by a danish 2nd level team :

http://www.goal.com/en/Articolo.aspx?ContenutoId=752592

...and so the list just goes on and on... I think ther are 2-3 more young danish players just at Liverpool at the moment, but I cant really keep track or remember all their names, not to forget all the young Danish players moving to Italy at the moment.. I did list some in the Superliga transfer list I posted..

Also a bottom Superliga team like AGF is able to sell younger players directly from the bench to the French league (Emil lyng in this transfer window) and a the Italian serie A (Mike Tullberg this past season), so I can hardly see how the MLS should be able to keep up at this point in time..

The MLS may produce their share of yong talents, but Danish soccer (at all levels) is very difficult to keep up with, also by European standards, when you look at the rate the young players are getting picked up... It has more or less always been so, and perhaps this is also why I may sound so very convinced and overconfident about the level of Danish soccer in general... but I do see that it may look hard to belive for some foreigners, now that the Danish NT did not participate at the Euro finals.. for the first time in 24 years.

.

[Aljarov]

Ceres:

Take a look at the WCQ group Canada is in.... Let's not forget, N.Ireland was languishing in then 100+ rank prior to qualifying.

I think you underestimate Guatemala too, like Honduras their squad is improving fairly rapidly and there are some excellent players. Cabrera played briefly in MLS for RSL. He didn't cut it, which surprised me considering his pedigree and that as a DL his position is very poorly represented in this league as a whole. As a whole the top Guatemalans, aside from Carlos Ruiz, have disappointed consistently in MLS...Pando Ramirez, Loco Rodruiguez, Pablo Chinilla and Cabrera were all busts.

Guatemala are ranked 91st...haead of Euro 2008 hosts Austria - and considerably better than Luxemboug #153, or San Marino #199+ One good player on those teams doens't make them a force.

I'm not sure where your logic is coming from. I'm not even American, or Canadian...I'm English (actually, technically I'm Scottish but that's a long story). I just think your assertions are flawed and that you are over-rating Euro-based leagues.

Yeah, wages are **** here, but that doesn't mean the standard is bad. Never under-estimate the allure of playing in your home country...whatever the price. That's why it's called the home town discount....apllies to countries in soccer too....

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Ceres

Now you are definitely a troll.

If you consider the game in Canada and in this region in such low esteem, why do you waste your time here?

[trueviking]

quote:Originally posted by Aljarov

I maintain that MLS teams are top-middle CCC (Div 2) up to lower-level EPL in England standard.

yeah, no way the letters EPL should ever be uttered in the same paragraph as MLS...even CCC is a mile ahead of MLS.

if salary is any guide to the quality of players a league can attract, MLS is on par with League 2...4 times less on average than CCC and 50% less than League 1.

as long as salaries are low and half the teams are playing on plastic, in a baseball stadium or on grid iron fields, they will never attract quality international players....right now it is a league that players like to finish their careers in...

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

That's the impression that I have from Gerba, I think his MNT play is kind to him. When I'm trying to evaluate the level of play of a canadian player I think club play is the most determinant thing. Why? More games, more coaches, different teamates, different styles of play, less chance of an "old boy network", etc.

That's why I've been sceptic about Gerba lately. The guy can't stick with a decent club in Europe for more than 6 months. His strike rate with our MNT is impressive but I think it's a bit misleading to evaluate him on that base (4 goals against SVG and one own goal against Guatemala that was wrongly credited to him). Before the SVG he was on a 5 games streak without a goal against pretty decent opposition. Maybe I'm wrong but I think Gerba is weaker than what his stats are suggesting.

Well, you've basically summed up my thoughts about him. I just hope he keeps that MNT goalscoring form going against our second round opposition: make it happen, Ali! And good luck with your new club.