Trillium Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Richard It's only a mess inside the fevered heads of a few paranoid posters in this forum. The its not a mess list: Richard AlanDouglas Terpfan It might be a mess or not list: Coach Rich It is a mess list: Trillim Vic DoyleG Fishman TheRef Piltdownman So I count six on the its a mess for whatever reason and three stalwarts saying its fine and if its not it is not the fault of Even Pelerud. Even if CoachRich is added to the it's not mess the reality is 60% of the posters in this forum topic think its a mess and thats a pretty strong majourity opinion. Now what would be very interesting is to know of those on the it's not mess list, who has had or does have or potentiall: will have business or financial dealings with Greg Kerfoot or Even Pelerud ? Richard care to discuss the fevered heads of a few...who seem mathimatically, factually to be the majority of posters on the topic ? Don't you hate when your hyperbole is wrong once more Richard ? I had thought you were starting to get it right that the light had shone through the clouds in lotus land, but perhaps not. In any case ..who has, will have or does have a business relationship with the Whitecaps ...Kerfoot...Pelerud group ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Richard It's only a mess inside the fevered heads of a few paranoid posters in this forum. I think it is you who is paranoid continuing to see Mrs. Hooper as a threat to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishman Posted June 11, 2008 Author Share Posted June 11, 2008 Wow. I don't enjoy a topic when it becomes an opportunity to bash each other's opinion - we can respectfully agree to disagree, and in doing so flesh out some of the relevant issues impacting (positively and/or negatively) soccer in our country. However, it does seem like too many posters want to assume the role of the great contrarian. And all that does is take away from the debate, which in this case is simply (well, simple at least to me) whether it is healthy for our Women's National Team program to have one organization (and its money-holder) control much of the administration, programming, player selection and choice of team staff. That control - according to at least one poster's experienced opinion - also extends to the Men's National Team program, too, as a matter of course. That is the debate. That is the discussion. If we stuck to the heart of the matter, we as passionate followers of soccer might actually be able to effect change within the administrative bodies. As it is, we are no better than the directors about whom we love to complain...scattered about with our own axes to grind and subjective opinions to champion. And being the objective soul I am - joking - I still believe it isn't a good thing when one privately-owned organization effectively exercises a pseudo-hegemony over a National Sport Organization (or at the very least, Canadian Women's Soccer). I ain't looking a gift horse in the mouth - I am asking some pretty obvious questions. Maybe if the Trojans had looked into that horse's mouth, the Achaeans wouldn't have run rough-shod over Troy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 Maestracci and Hart will define the new women's program. REMINDER: after this Summer there is no major Women's tournament for three full years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Vic Maestracci and Hart will define the new women's program. REMINDER: after this Summer there is no major Women's tournament for three full years. This could mean we are not going to see a new coach for the women any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terpfan68 Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 Take a bit of time and get someone who has been successful in another program. As an aside I wonder if the "poster" on this site were to ever meet in person would the arguements be as personal as they are. I'd like to think that I could get along with people who have different thoughts about the problems with soccer without resorting to character assasination. If anyone of you gets to Winnipeg, give me a call. I'm in the phonebook. I'll buy you a beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanDouglas Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Vic Douglas... those are professional clubs. The only national team example you put forward is a few USNT's who have NO PROFESSIONAL CLUB AFFILIATION. One more time: "The U17's train together. [check] The Men's team train together. [check] All the teams in the Euro train together. [check] None of them are in residency. [check] None of them are in a cult-like environment. [removed, assanine] None of them are burning out. [removed, argumentative if you watched Italy] None of them are in bed with a professional team. [check] But I forgot, it's required. Perhaps you might want to tell all the world's Men's and Women's international teams all that you just figured out they're all doing it wrong. I'm sure they're really interested. check" Vic, the reason these teams don't have a residency program is because they cannot afford one, not because they don't want one. I assure you, there isn't a coach at Euro who wouldn't love to have a residency program. Coaches have a woody for these things. But the cost would be insane -- we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars in transfer fees and salaries. It ain't gonna happen. What you do see though every now and then is a country that has one dominant club team that supplies a lot of their national team players. In that case, it's not uncommon for the club coach to also be national team coach, and run his club like a national team residency program. If I time to research it, I am sure I could cite several examples, but I don't actually have to look far to find the first. Whitecaps men's coach Teitur Thordarson was for over three years coach of the Estonian National men's team while at the same time was coach of Estonian club FC Flora. Flora were champions each of those years, and contributed the lion's share of the national team players. As for current Euro teams and professional clubs, I guess it depends where you draw the line. Chelsea owner Roman Abramovich has sunk millions into the Russian national team, including around $50 million for a new national training center complete with residences for 250 players and staff (although I think I read somewhere that the project has become snarled in government red tape). He also pays the multi-million dollar salary of Russian head coach Guus Hiddink. It was also reported that Abramovich gifted $10 million to the Croatian National Team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanDouglas Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Vic You high? I don't know how I can say this more clearly. The Whitecaps REALLY REALLY REALLY wanted to play New Jersey. Beating New Jersey in the final was the club's main objective. It was like in the Blue's Brothers where they were on a mission from God. It's why they wanted to host the Final -- to bring New Jersey out and show them what a Final should really look like, on real grass, with a sold-out crowd, in a stadium that actually says "professional soccer". And of course beat them. Beat them bad. It's why the Whitecaps hired Birarda, so he could get Sinclair, who could get Milbrett, so we could have a super-team, for the expressed and singular purpose of BEATING NEW JERSEY! But it didn't happen. We never got the chance. It was a big let down. Not to take anything away from Ottawa who are a great team, and play absolutely fantastic soccer, and it was great having them here for an all-Canadian final, but... we really wanted to beat New Jersey. Sigh. And to top it all of, for the Whitecaps to then be accused of cheating by somebody who I expected would have a BETTER UNDERSTANDING of the competitive drive of her own teammates... well let's just say I was pretty damned disappointed with a certain Ms Hooper on that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 You won't win with these people where Ms Hooper is concerned Alan, no matter how strong and rational your case. She is second only to the soccer God in their eyes and can do no wrong. I have to suspect they are related to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 About New Jersey. Alan, I have no doubt the party line in the PR department was wanting to play New Jersey, but obviously the powers that be had other ambitions/worries. And if you are (in my opinion) so naive as to not believe one phone call from Kerfoot, Lenarduzzi or Birada was all it took, then we can respectfully agree to disagree. quote: "What you do see though every now and then is a country that has one dominant club team that supplies a lot of their national team players." And what you see about a hundred times more is the opposite, if that means anything. Because you mentioned it, I just did some digging, and FC Flora is an interesting case study. And yes, I think you hit the nail on the head. When Thoradson got there they had almost every national team player. Two years later using the scheme and under him they tanked and missed a 1st/2nd place in the Estonian league for the only time in the last 20 years or so (they are millionaire and government funded - sound familiar?). Thoradson disappears and the national team immediately the following year is made up of players from the entire league and internationally. I am looking at an Estonian game the next year and can't find even a single Flora player. And this is still the case today (although Flora has 4 in the NT pool). I think that's pretty much exactly what will happen here. The results fell off, Pellerud has been held accountable, the exodus will occur and this time next year we'll see an extremely wide array of club teams on the WNT, with the Whitecaps or any individual club ne'er to return. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the money you mention of Abramovich was given with no strings attached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Richard, show some class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Richard You won't win with these people where Ms Hooper is concerned Alan, no matter how strong and rational your case. She is second only to the soccer God in their eyes and can do no wrong. I have to suspect they are related to her. Why do you need to win against us people? If you simply would stop putting down Ms. Hooper at every chance you get, us people will not pull your chain all the time and make fall for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanDouglas Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Vic, no. I am not going "agree to disagree", because you are so completely and totally wrong about this, it makes me want to puke. I have worked with these people for years. Have you ever even met them? This isn't just party-line PR I am repeating. I am so 100% absolutely certain you are wrong that I would bet my life on it. Words cannot describe how outraged I am by these bullcrap accusations. It is probably the most galling insulting s^&t I have come across in my ten years with the club. And BTW, I was the Whitecaps staffer who was monitoring the New Jersey - Ottawa game on the internet, and I am the one who told senior management the result. I wish I could tell you their reaction, cause it was kind of funny, but I don't want to speak out of turn (at least no more than I already have). Suffice to say it was not a happy response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Trust me Alan, if I wanted to know how many shots they took I'd take your word on it. But when it comes to high-end politicking, I'm going to pass. And if you want to go to your grave thinking Pellerud didn't gift the Whitecaps a paved highway to the Cup as compensation for funding and his lifestyle, then Godspeed. I respectfully agree to disagree. Puke and rage all you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanDouglas Posted June 14, 2008 Share Posted June 14, 2008 Right Vic. Because you have better insight into people that you have never met than somebody who knows them and has worked with them for years, and better insight into circumstance you only read about after the fact, than somebody who was involved first-hand and as they happened. Well, as I have always said "you cannot convince a brick who is the smarter." I do find it interesting though that you seem to accept at face value the Abramovich party line that his massive donations are made with no strings attached. Is it that are you just naturally trusting, and only become cynical when a star athlete tells you what to think? Another observation. I say that the Whitecaps are being hurt by their national team relationship. You say that Whitecaps will be hurt by their national team relationship, and that Flora FC were hurt by their national team relationship. One might almost think we were agreeing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted June 14, 2008 Share Posted June 14, 2008 I think observations work both ways. If you are too far to the happenings your vision may be blurred and if you are too close you may get blinded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 quote: Right Vic. Because you have better insight into people that you have never met than somebody who knows them and has worked with them for years, and better insight into circumstance you only read about after the fact, than somebody who was involved first-hand and as they happened." Toot your horn any way you want and as you see fit. Agree to disagree. Very comfortable with it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanDouglas Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 I will never agree to disagree! However upon consulting with my legal counsel, I will agree to agree to disagree about disagreeing. If you are fine with that, then just toot the nearest horn, and we can get back to talking about curling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 [shaking head] That was "agree to disagree" as in "I agree to disagree with you." Ergo the "I'm very comfortable with it." Thought that was fairly obvious. BTW, you're turning into one of the main reasons I don't think our national teams should get involved with club programs. Different ethics, goals, personnel policies and acceptable conduct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanDouglas Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 [shaking foot - (it fell asleep)] That was "I will never agree to disagree" as in "I will never agree to disagree with you." Ergo the "!". Thought that was fairly obvious. So you think my conduct is less acceptable than that of Pellerud and the CSA bigwigs, eh? WOOF! I am honoured. Of course you could just accept to not accept my unacceptable conduct. I would agree to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanDouglas Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 [shaking foot - (it fell asleep)] That was "I will never agree to disagree" as in "I will never agree to disagree with you." Ergo the "!". Thought that was fairly obvious. So you think my conduct is less acceptable than that of Pellerud and the CSA bigwigs, eh? WOOF! I am honoured. Of course you could just accept to not accept my unacceptable conduct. I would agree to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trillium Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 quote:Originally posted by AlanDouglas Vic, no. I am not going "agree to disagree", because you are so completely and totally wrong about this, it makes me want to puke. I have worked with these people for years. Have you ever even met them? This isn't just party-line PR I am repeating. I am so 100% absolutely certain you are wrong that I would bet my life on it. Words cannot describe how outraged I am by these bullcrap accusations. It is probably the most galling insulting s^&t I have come across in my ten years with the club. And BTW, I was the Whitecaps staffer who was monitoring the New Jersey - Ottawa game on the internet, and I am the one who told senior management the result. I wish I could tell you their reaction, cause it was kind of funny, but I don't want to speak out of turn (at least no more than I already have). Suffice to say it was not a happy response. Whitecaps staffer..as in employee, and since you and Richard love to talk about Hooper and her disloyality to her employer its pretty clear your whole viewpoint is tainted by who pays your bills. Its really embarassing to think you come on line to defend your bosses and the deals they make the back room deals that Pelerud cut with the Fury .. and trust me I am pretty sure that deal was forced on him for other actions he has taken regarding players at Canadian club teams.. but I leave that cesspool to other to talk about the inside details. So Allan .. you work for the Whitecaps and you support the directions the company takes... so how independent is your view ? I at least can say ... what I know and see and what I think about the state of football in this country are my own independent thoughts, developed over the years and through broad based involvement in the game. I suspect a few others who post here have the same background and have independent views. But clearly you and Richard are involved with the Whitecaps and your defence of them and the vitrol you use to do it ..is understandable, but its all for nought, given that most Canadians perfer clarity and transparency in such dealings with National Sport Bodies ....I think the Australian phrase is Fair D'inkum. FIFA calls it Fair Play ..and FIFA does not only mean on the field but in all aspects of Football and relationship in the Football Family. Somewhere Pelerud and Kerfoot and others have forgot about Fair Play and the good of the game in Canada. Its a shame. Its going to end no matter how much you want a new WNT team coach who sucks...I suspect we are going to get something much better and that the CSA is going to clearly see the political risk of not hitting a home run and getting a top flight new National Team Coach for the Women. Lets hope the current women's team has new leadership emerging ..with maturity and understanding to help pull it together for Peking, and to be in the forefront of player envolvement in the determination of a new WNT to succeed. Moving this thread on to the future... who should form the CSA hiring ctte for the WNT ? How many persons at interviews ? Who should the people be ? What questions would you want asked if you were on the ctte to hire? How would you weight your questions.. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 Me on the Whitecaps payroll, I wish! I get my information about what goes on with the Whitecaps and the WNT program and form my own opinions by interacting with the people concerned directly like any other specialised journalist. How do you get the facts upon which you base your ever so rigid opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanDouglas Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 My loyalty to the Whitecaps has nothing to do with money. The fact is if I were to quit the Caps today and went to work full time for my company, then I would be pulling in an extra $1,700 a month. I am loyal to the Whitecaps because they are good people doing good work to try and improve soccer in this country, and that is mostly down to the vision and generosity of Greg Kerfoot. If you want to cling to delusions of shady backroom deals that don't exist, then that is your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 Come gather 'round people Wherever you roam And admit that the waters Around you have grown And accept it that soon You'll be drenched to the bone. If your time to you Is worth savin' Then you better start swimmin' Or you'll sink like a stone For the times they are a-changin'. Come writers and critics Who prophesize with your pen And keep your eyes wide The chance won't come again And don't speak too soon For the wheel's still in spin And there's no tellin' who That it's namin'. For the loser now Will be later to win For the times they are a-changin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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