Six plus Five and the MLS and TFC

[Trillium]

Will six plus five change who TFC can put on the field to start games ?

http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/federation/bodies/media/newsid=783657.html#fifa+congress+supports+objectives

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

This will probably go the same way as 18 team national divisions.

[coppercanuck]

^^^I agree this one will be a hard pill to swallow for a lot of bigger clubs than TFC. Even a club like Barcelona have about 9 Spanish players. 3 are goalkeepers! I some what agree with the philosophy of the rule but its like trying to stop a panamax cargo ship with a canoe! Its going to take some time and space. Most clubs will be taking this fax from FIFA and putting it right through the shredder.

[Guest Ed]

It's a non-starter in Europe. Can't go against the EU labour laws.

[youllneverwalkalone]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

It's a non-starter in Europe. Can't go against the EU labour laws.

I don't know if UEFA are concerned about this issue or not, but it would seem to me that limiting each squad to 1 or 2 non-EU players would have the same effect as this 6+5. Sure, Arsenal could replace their Africans with Frenchmen, but clubs like Portsmouth would be forced to either develop more English talent or redesign their academy more along the lines of Barcelona, to naturalize players at a younger age.

My first instinct would be that such a move by UEFA would be bad for Canadians, but most of the best Canadians in Europe already have EU passports and with the prospect of two more MLS clubs, we need more kids staying home.

It might also be great for MLS, because a greater number of South Americans would be available.

[Free kick]

I read that same article over the weekend and came to completely different conclusions. I thought that FIFA ( Blatter) actually backed off from implementing this rule and instead will look at a negociated solution with the clubs. As presented by Blatter, the 6 and 5 rule, would have been a logistical nightmare. Imagine if your GK is domestic and gets injured during a game. What happens if the backup is foreign? Similarly what happens with players that are subbed in and out? how many domestic players do you actually have to have in order to make proper substitutions?

A more pertinent piece for Cnd soccer, I thought, from that congress was the adoption of a five years residency requirement for players to play for a different national side. I thought that that piece was rather significant given that I can think of one player that we would not have lost had that rule existed previously.

[Canuck Oranje]

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2008/0530/blatters.html?rss

http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/football/article.html?in_article_id=156228&in_page_id=43

Blatter better not forget the Bosman ruling.

[ag futbol]

I really can't see this ever passing. Once again FIFA will have bitten off more than it can chew, and they'll have to go back to their other brilliant ideas like women's hot pants.

Even if this gets passed it will be an administrative nightmare. Clubs will use citizenship rules until they are blue in the face and drive trucks through the loopholes they will be so big. Countries will never completely close the opportunities because it would be overly discriminatory.

You think national team shopping is a problem now? Wait until a big fat pay check is standing behind that as well for most non-European players.

[Richard]

I agree that I think this plan will be unworkable in practise, never mind EU rules.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

For me it is a bad rule, a terrible rule. It continues to favour the stronger nations. A guy with money in Lithuania has to have all these local boys they have seen all their life, instead of spending to bring in some better internationals to entertain fans and raise the level of the club? Ridiculous.

And of course since the national pool is small the rich club buys out the locals and the rest of the clubs pick up the dregs.

For me it is a matter of pride, and if you as a fan don't have any and don't care that your club is 90% pro sport mercenaries that is your bloody problem, you get what you deserve. You are not going to tell me that Arsenal is a symbol of internationalism and multi-culturality, that is a load of crap. They simply are "alienated" in search of raw results, that is how I see it. I am surprised they are not more embarrassed by the product they put on the field.

That TFC fans are indeed concerned about seeing Canadians get a chance, especially when you see some foreigners given a chance playing worse, with less heart, and giving less to the team, is heartening. The fans have to speak up, if the team plays bunker down defence, speak out; if they play crap long ball and can't pass, shout like hell. It is your team, ask for the kind of game you want, with the kind of players.

Hopefully MLSE will come to understand this and encourage a club policy or "attitude" that seeks to promote the value of playing Canadians. For no other reason that you are proud to do so and your fans appreciate it.

[Richard]

^ Without rules the only way fans can influence the club business managers is to stay away from games and don't watch them on TV i.e. cut revenues.

[Trillium]

Well as I read the regulation and listened to Blatter, and the number of votes for by the National Associations, it seems the rule will begin to be implemented.

Blatter clearly talked about the export of Brasilian Players and the possiblity that a World Cup Minnow through fast track nationality ( see Quatar and others ) could field a quality national team without a significant born in country, trained in country component.

Clearly Euro countries Football Federations want development of players in the localized national club league to support the use of those players on the national team to generate income for the National Associations.

As Blatter pointed out FIFA has one cash cow ..the World Cup, he wants to protect that property and its value, seeing to many one name players on a variety of National Teams is percieved to create a long term problem. I suspect clubs dont like it cause it makes the improvement of a team harder you have to develop players or buy from local sources and not go out and buy proven propertys to build powerhouse clubs.

Remember the rule says .. you have to start a certain number of locals but they can be replaced...under the substitution rules...so if I have it right start six .. sub in four ..leaving two national locals.

Where it it going to interesting in Canada is the Canadian Soccer League which will have to comply ... when your team is all Croat, what will happen ?

The other question is ... will this rule apply to all teams ..pro and non pro ?

[KAS]

quote:Originally posted by Trillium

Remember the rule says .. you have to start a certain number of locals but they can be replaced...under the substitution rules...so if I have it right start six .. sub in four ..leaving two national locals.

Where it it going to interesting in Canada is the Canadian Soccer League which will have to comply ... when your team is all Croat, what will happen ?

The other question is ... will this rule apply to all teams ..pro and non pro ?

Outside of friendlies, you are usually limited to just three subs. This means that only half the six nationals/locals could be replaced. In practice, a coach will want to keep atleast one sub option open late into the game to take into account a change in tactics, an injury, or a red card (especially to a keeper). Maybe a few coaches will regularly make one sub early on, but that would be it. The best foreigners would the five that start, so the sixth best foreiner on the squad might not be that special. Make all of your keepers, defenders, and DMs domestic, and you can splurge on Brazilians for offensive flair.

As for the CSL, I'm not sure if there will be any effect. It is hardly the league that is foremost on Blatter's mind, and any implemenation of the rule would be brought in slowly. I don't really know anything about the rosters of Toronto Croatia and SWE, but they can't all be from overseas. I wouldn't be surprised if a number of them are Canadian-born/raised from parents/grandparents that came from these countries. They would have the right surname, and perhaps speak the language, so that would be enough. With a few exceptions, such as aging ex-internationals, I'm not sure if there is much difference in quality between what these teams can afford to import and what can be found locally in the immigrant communities.

[Richard]

I really doubt the current CSL, the PCSL and other third tier leagues are even on the radar screen when it comes to this kind of thing.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

One thing I will say is that if FIFA imposes it I think they can fight off the European Community laws on employment. Just make it a rule of the game and if you don't follow and are violating FIFA rules then you can be sanctioned. So the problem is not there, it is in other places.

I still think that it favours the clubs in big soccer nations. Large nations with big player pools have it easy, as do their clubs, who can draw from a strong base. Small countries who want to raise their level do not, I mean 12 teams in Lithuania is a lot compared to 20 in England, you water down the Lithuanians while the English or Spanish would probably be fine. So you favour the big guys, even though this exagerrated use of money is seen to be a big guy problem. But since the moneyed clubs would now just emphasize academy more and attract young players WITH MONEY you are back to where you started.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

One thing I will say is that if FIFA imposes it I think they can fight off the European Community laws on employment. Just make it a rule of the game and if you don't follow and are violating FIFA rules then you can be sanctioned. So the problem is not there, it is in other places.

I still think that it favours the clubs in big soccer nations. Large nations with big player pools have it easy, as do their clubs, who can draw from a strong base. Small countries who want to raise their level do not, I mean 12 teams in Lithuania is a lot compared to 20 in England, you water down the Lithuanians while the English or Spanish would probably be fine. So you favour the big guys, even though this exagerrated use of money is seen to be a big guy problem. But since the moneyed clubs would now just emphasize academy more and attract young players WITH MONEY you are back to where you started.

I think your right with one exception .... which is having clubs pay for young player development allows the Englands etc. to have a stronger pool of players for National Team Use, and that is where FIFA gets its dollars.

It will make it harder for minnows to move up and retain the status quo...normal within football.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

I really doubt the current CSL, the PCSL and other third tier leagues are even on the radar screen when it comes to this kind of thing.

Of course they are not Richard, but they will need to comply, the CSA will need to implement and sanction leagues who fail to follow the rule.

There will not be exceptions for the PCSL if it is deemed a professional league.

The question of if it will apply to non-professional Senior Football in Canada is interesting as many many teams could have 100 percent non-canadians, it is in fact a backbone to social inclusion, I wonder if the CSA spoke to the point or simply lifted the paddle before going to the Seafood buffet in Sydney.

[Richard]

Frankly I do not believe there is sufficient information in the public domain to discuss anything more than the idea in principle. There is a lot of speculation absent facts going on in this forum. As for your comment re non-professional football and non-Canadians, guess it will depend if someone with 'landed immigrant' status is considered domestic and equivalent to Canadian citizenship for the purpose of this proposed ruling.

[Canuck Oranje]

I thought the UEFA proposal put forward and generally accepted in principle to be workable by the EU is probably the way it will go in the end. That is that the definition of homegrown will mean "developed by the club" without mention of nationality or eligibility to play for the national team of the host country. There are just too many issues with trying to implement FIFA's current proposal.

My suspicion is that with the continued economic development of Brazil and Russia, their leagues will continue to strengthen. Club revenues for the top 21 clubs (by revenues) are already growing rapidly in Brazil and are expected to rise even more quickly (TV revenue doubled for Serie B clubs from 2006 to 2007). Add the fact that the Brazilian currency has appreciated even more than Canada's and it is not inconceivable that a tipping point could be reached where Brazilian players (beginning with those in second-tier European leagues) will begin to return. I suspect the same may or is already occuring with Russia as well. Now if the MLS would take off the handcuffs from individual league clubs and let them move forward more quickly, we could see more top Canadian and US talent also returning to North America.

As for the big clubs in Europe, any additional restriction on their businesses would be worrisome for them because many of them need continued revenue growth to justify the expenditures that they make. Many big clubs are experiencing substantial losses. If they are less successful competition-wise and/less attractive in Asia, North America, and the Middle East, the losses at their current levels will not be able to be sustained especially, if revenues for some big clubs start to decline. With the expected economic slowdown in Europe and the continue economic rise of Brazil and Russia, we could see very interesting times in European soccer, in a Confucian sort of way.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Frankly I do not believe there is sufficient information in the public domain to discuss anything more than the idea in principle. There is a lot of speculation absent facts going on in this forum. As for your comment re non-professional football and non-Canadians, guess it will depend if someone with 'landed immigrant' status is considered domestic and equivalent to Canadian citizenship for the purpose of this proposed ruling.

Some more information in the Public Domain for you Richard... so you can discuss it ....more intelligently.

Blatter: '6+5' rule is crucial(FIFA.com) Wednesday 7 May 2008

Blatter: '6+5' rule is crucial(FIFA.com) Wednesday 7 May 2008

Joseph S. Blatter held a round table with journalists from the main press agencies on 7 May 2008. Ahead of the forthcoming FIFA Congress (29-30 May 2008), the FIFA President explained why in his opinion the so-called '6+5' rule, which will be discussed at the Congress, is crucial to the future of football.

Read on to see what the president of world football's governing body had to say...

On the '6+5' rule and other topics for discussion at the Congress

The '6+5' rule will be one of the subjects discussed at the FIFA Congress. It represents the extension of a series of measures taken by FIFA at the May 2007 Congress and finalised by the Executive Committee in October and whose aims are to protect minors, protect youth training, adapt the transfer system to today's realities and ensure tighter control over the actions of players' agents. Moreover, we will also discuss another "related" problem at the Congress - that of players taking on other nationalities. At the moment, after a two-year period a player can receive nationality from another country. Based on the misuse of this system that we have already seen, we want to increase this period to five years. If we do not, I would not be surprised if in 2014, half the players in the World Cup were of Brazilian origin...

On the aims of the '6+5' rule

We need to ask supporters around the world the following questions: are you in favour of a strong national team? Are you in favour of national team players playing for the top clubs in your country's league? Are you in favour of youth players being trained and then getting access to the first team at their original club? Do you want players who have come through the youth system at a club to sign their first pro contact with that club? If you answer "yes" to all these questions, then like me you are in favour of the '6+5' rule.

On the compatibility of the '6+5' rule with European laws

Contrary to what may have been said, the '6+5' rule does not contravene the European Labour Law on the freedom of movement. Clubs will still be free to take on as many foreign players as they want. When a match kicks off however, they will have to have six players on the pitch who are eligible for the national team of the country in question. Furthermore, the '6+5' rule supports another European Law, namely regarding having the broadest and fairest possible competition and restricting the concentration of finances and economic monopolies. This is the direction that football is going in. In the five main European championships at the moment, four-fifths of the teams are battling to avoid relegation to a lower division. This is not a sign that football is in good health. It is the proof that a minority of clubs control everything - money, players and means.

We are not trying to defy the laws that are in place. We have to struggle all year round against governmental interference in the affairs of Member Associations so we are not about to start interfering ourselves! Having said that, if we do not intervene, the fairness of the sport will be further endangered and identification with national teams is going to disappear. In the end it will all be down to money, there will be no more sporting competition or local or regional sentiment.

On the various stages of implementation of the '6+5' rule

I am going to make a suggestion to the Congress and ask the FIFA members for a mandate. I hope that they will give me this mandate so that we can start discussions with everybody involved in football - the leagues, the players, the national associations and the clubs - as well as those from the political scene - notably the European Union and the governments. I will of course be accompanied by UEFA President Michel Platini in my dealings with the European Union.

On the measures proposed by UEFA

The 4+4 or 'home-grown rule' proposed by UEFA has one major shortcoming - it does not protect players who are eligible for the national team of the club in question. Under this system, the richest clubs would merely have to buy players at an even younger age than they are currently doing. Michel Platini is in favour of the '6+5' system, he just thinks that it will be difficult to implement. But we have a lot of support. Many of our member associations have come out in favour of it as have famous players and coaches such as Gianfranco Zola, Roy Keane, Alex Ferguson, Johan Cruyff and Franz Beckenbauer.

Personally, I am convinced that it is far from impossible to solve the problem. The figures from the five main European championships (Germany, England, Spain, France and Italy) are not that far away from '6+5'. 43% of squads are made up of players who are not eligible. England and Germany are the only ones who are above 50%. Of course, rich clubs will always be able to buy the best players in the country. We are not fighting over money, we are fighting to keep a minimum of local, regional or national identity. We are fighting for youth training and this goes all the way up to the national teams. Rich clubs will stay rich but those less well off will stand a chance, that's all we ask for.

On the solidarity created by the '6+5' rule

Let's be honest: the Champions League is the biggest league in the world, but 80 per cent of the income it generates goes directly to the 32 participating clubs, and even more to the clubs who progress further in the competition. This season has been symptomatic. There were three English clubs in the semi-finals and two in the final, who will get even more money. Europe cannot carry on being so selfish. We need to have solidarity and to help others in order to maintain a balance in football. Europe looks after its rich clubs well but needs to look after those that are less well off. The '6+5' rule will redress the balance in sporting terms and I can guarantee that continents like South America and Africa are behind us on this, as they are the suppliers for the big European clubs and they are suffering from the exodus of their players. The President of the CAF Issa Hayatou for example defended the '6+5' rule at the African Confederation's Congress last January.

On how to convince the European Union

On behalf of FIFA I have been fighting for the past 33 years to defend the universality of our sport. There is room for us to discuss this with Europe and the governments, the door is not closed, and we are not alone in this. The Olympic Committee supports us, and the international volleyball, basketball and rugby federations are looking to introduce similar rules. It is easy to talk about solidarity but more difficult to actually implement it. We need to convince the world and the media, but I'm an optimist by nature and I'm convinced that we'll manage it.

Joseph S. Blatter held a round table with journalists from the main press agencies on 7 May 2008. Ahead of the forthcoming FIFA Congress (29-30 May 2008), the FIFA President explained why in his opinion the so-called '6+5' rule, which will be discussed at the Congress, is crucial to the future of football.

Read on to see what the president of world football's governing body had to say...

On the '6+5' rule and other topics for discussion at the Congress

The '6+5' rule will be one of the subjects discussed at the FIFA Congress. It represents the extension of a series of measures taken by FIFA at the May 2007 Congress and finalised by the Executive Committee in October and whose aims are to protect minors, protect youth training, adapt the transfer system to today's realities and ensure tighter control over the actions of players' agents. Moreover, we will also discuss another "related" problem at the Congress - that of players taking on other nationalities. At the moment, after a two-year period a player can receive nationality from another country. Based on the misuse of this system that we have already seen, we want to increase this period to five years. If we do not, I would not be surprised if in 2014, half the players in the World Cup were of Brazilian origin...

On the aims of the '6+5' rule

We need to ask supporters around the world the following questions: are you in favour of a strong national team? Are you in favour of national team players playing for the top clubs in your country's league? Are you in favour of youth players being trained and then getting access to the first team at their original club? Do you want players who have come through the youth system at a club to sign their first pro contact with that club? If you answer "yes" to all these questions, then like me you are in favour of the '6+5' rule.

On the compatibility of the '6+5' rule with European laws

Contrary to what may have been said, the '6+5' rule does not contravene the European Labour Law on the freedom of movement. Clubs will still be free to take on as many foreign players as they want. When a match kicks off however, they will have to have six players on the pitch who are eligible for the national team of the country in question. Furthermore, the '6+5' rule supports another European Law, namely regarding having the broadest and fairest possible competition and restricting the concentration of finances and economic monopolies. This is the direction that football is going in. In the five main European championships at the moment, four-fifths of the teams are battling to avoid relegation to a lower division. This is not a sign that football is in good health. It is the proof that a minority of clubs control everything - money, players and means.

We are not trying to defy the laws that are in place. We have to struggle all year round against governmental interference in the affairs of Member Associations so we are not about to start interfering ourselves! Having said that, if we do not intervene, the fairness of the sport will be further endangered and identification with national teams is going to disappear. In the end it will all be down to money, there will be no more sporting competition or local or regional sentiment.

On the various stages of implementation of the '6+5' rule

I am going to make a suggestion to the Congress and ask the FIFA members for a mandate. I hope that they will give me this mandate so that we can start discussions with everybody involved in football - the leagues, the players, the national associations and the clubs - as well as those from the political scene - notably the European Union and the governments. I will of course be accompanied by UEFA President Michel Platini in my dealings with the European Union.

On the measures proposed by UEFA

The 4+4 or 'home-grown rule' proposed by UEFA has one major shortcoming - it does not protect players who are eligible for the national team of the club in question. Under this system, the richest clubs would merely have to buy players at an even younger age than they are currently doing. Michel Platini is in favour of the '6+5' system, he just thinks that it will be difficult to implement. But we have a lot of support. Many of our member associations have come out in favour of it as have famous players and coaches such as Gianfranco Zola, Roy Keane, Alex Ferguson, Johan Cruyff and Franz Beckenbauer.

Personally, I am convinced that it is far from impossible to solve the problem. The figures from the five main European championships (Germany, England, Spain, France and Italy) are not that far away from '6+5'. 43% of squads are made up of players who are not eligible. England and Germany are the only ones who are above 50%. Of course, rich clubs will always be able to buy the best players in the country. We are not fighting over money, we are fighting to keep a minimum of local, regional or national identity. We are fighting for youth training and this goes all the way up to the national teams. Rich clubs will stay rich but those less well off will stand a chance, that's all we ask for.

On the solidarity created by the '6+5' rule

Let's be honest: the Champions League is the biggest league in the world, but 80 per cent of the income it generates goes directly to the 32 participating clubs, and even more to the clubs who progress further in the competition. This season has been symptomatic. There were three English clubs in the semi-finals and two in the final, who will get even more money. Europe cannot carry on being so selfish. We need to have solidarity and to help others in order to maintain a balance in football. Europe looks after its rich clubs well but needs to look after those that are less well off. The '6+5' rule will redress the balance in sporting terms and I can guarantee that continents like South America and Africa are behind us on this, as they are the suppliers for the big European clubs and they are suffering from the exodus of their players. The President of the CAF Issa Hayatou for example defended the '6+5' rule at the African Confederation's Congress last January.

On how to convince the European Union

On behalf of FIFA I have been fighting for the past 33 years to defend the universality of our sport. There is room for us to discuss this with Europe and the governments, the door is not closed, and we are not alone in this. The Olympic Committee supports us, and the international volleyball, basketball and rugby federations are looking to introduce similar rules. It is easy to talk about solidarity but more difficult to actually implement it. We need to convince the world and the media, but I'm an optimist by nature and I'm convinced that we'll manage it.

[Trillium]

Talks held on "6+5" with European Parliament President and Belgian Prime Minister(FIFA.com) Friday 6 June 2008

FIFA President Joseph S. Blatter, accompanied by UEFA President Michel Platini, met the President of the European Parliament, Hans-Gert Pöttering, in Brussels on Thursday to discuss the objectives of "6+5".

At this working meeting, all parties agreed that factual discussions on the subject of "6+5" would be continued at a later date.

The meeting at the European Parliament was held only days after the FIFA Congress adopted a resolution which, among others, requested the Presidents of FIFA and UEFA to explore all possible means within the limits of European law to ensure that the "6+5" objectives can be carried out accordingly and as laid down by the FIFA Congress.

"6+5" is a football objective stating that each club must field at least six players eligible to play for the national team of the country of the club. FIFA firmly believes that "6+5" will, among others, help maintain the harmony and balance between national team football and club football, as well as safeguard the education and training of young players. FIFA is also of the opinion that "6+5" will help maintain the competitiveness of club competitions.

For more information on "6+5" and the recent resolution adopted at the 58th FIFA Congress, please read the media release on the right hand side.

In a second meeting in Brussels on Thursday, the FIFA and UEFA Presidents met Belgian Prime Minister Yves Leterme as well as the President of the Belgian football association, Francois De Keersmaecker, who were both supportive of the "6+5" objectives. In addition, the Belgian delegation underlined their country's interest in presenting a joint bid with the Netherlands to host the 2018 FIFA World Cup.

[Richard]

There you go Trillium, well done