Buy our own Football Team!

[aussoccerfan]

quote:Originally posted by hamiltonfan

A master list should be made up. I’ll go ahead and give it a stab. We can use this to start and then start adding/taking away potential cities.

I tries to stay away from cities with CSL or PDL teams now as there is no way a team would be allowed there. Here is my personal revised listed.

Our Football Team</u>

<s>The Maritimes

Halifax

St.Johns</s>

What are you talking about?

There's no CSL or PDL in Atlantic Canada.

[hamiltonfan]

Correct. I just feel like a team out in the Maritimes would not be vialble due to geographic reason as well as top notch soccer facilities.

[hamiltonfan]

Heres a list of the top thirty cities in Canada

top 30 short list

Toronto 4,753,120 - full of CSL, PDL and the the giants TFC

Montreal 3,316,615 - IMPACT

Vancouver 1,953,252 - WHITECAPS, PDL

Calgary 991,759 - OPEN

Edmonton 863,544 - OPEN

Ottawa 860,928 - OPEN

Quebec City 659,545 - CSL team in 2009 Quebec City FC

Hamilton 647,634 - OPEN

Winnipeg 641,483 - OPEN

Kitchener 422,514 - OPEN

London 353,069 - CSL London City

St. Catherines/Niagara 308,596 - CSL Roma Wolves

Victoria 304,683 - PDL Victoria Highlanders

Halifax 282,924 - OPEN

Windsor 278,765 - CSL Border Stars

Oshawa 269,734 -

Saskatoon 202,425 - OPEN

Regina 179,246 - OPEN

Barrie 157,501 - OPEN

St. John's 151,322 - OPEN

Abbotsford 138,986 - PDL Abbotsford Rangers

Sherbrooke 134,610 - OPEN

Kelowna 126,384 - OPEN

Trois-Rivières 121,666 - CSL Atack

Guelph 115,635 - OPEN

Kingston 109,431 - OPEN

Sudbury 106,612 - OPEN

Chicoutimi 106,103 - OPEN

Thunder Bay 103,247 - PDL Thunder Bay Chill

Moncton 97,065 - OPEN

so to short that list to already 17. lets get it down to ten and start looking at those cities.

Calgary 991,759

Edmonton 863,544

Ottawa 860,928

Hamilton 647,634

Winnipeg 641,483

Kitchener 422,514

Halifax 282,924

Saskatoon 202,425

Regina 179,246

Barrie 157,501

St. John's 151,322

Sherbrooke 134,610

Kelowna 126,384

Guelph 115,635

Kingston 109,431

Sudbury 106,612

Moncton 97,065

my vote out is Moncton, Sudbury, St. John's, Barrie, Saskatoon, combine Kitchener and Guelph, Regina

leaving

TOP TEN(in order by pop.)

Calgary 991,759

Edmonton 863,544

Ottawa 860,928

Hamilton 647,634

Winnipeg 641,483

Kitchener 422,514 Guelph 115,635

Halifax 282,924

Sherbrooke 134,610

Kelowna 126,384

Kingston 109,431

[SoccerNewf]

quote:Originally posted by hamiltonfan

Ottawa 860,928 - OPEN

Doesn't Ottawa have a PDL franchise?

[Jason]

quote:Originally posted by hamiltonfan

Heres a list of the top thirty cities in Canada

top 30 short list

Toronto 4,753,120 - full of CSL, PDL and the the giants TFC

Montreal 3,316,615 - IMPACT

Vancouver 1,953,252 - WHITECAPS, PDL

Calgary 991,759 - OPEN

Edmonton 863,544 - OPEN

Ottawa 860,928 - OPEN

Quebec City 659,545 - CSL team in 2009 Quebec City FC

Hamilton 647,634 - OPEN

Winnipeg 641,483 - OPEN

Kitchener 422,514 - OPEN

London 353,069 - CSL London City

St. Catherines/Niagara 308,596 - CSL Roma Wolves

Victoria 304,683 - PDL Victoria Highlanders

Halifax 282,924 - OPEN

Windsor 278,765 - CSL Border Stars

Oshawa 269,734 -

Saskatoon 202,425 - OPEN

Regina 179,246 - OPEN

Barrie 157,501 - OPEN

St. John's 151,322 - OPEN

Abbotsford 138,986 - PDL Abbotsford Rangers

Sherbrooke 134,610 - OPEN

Kelowna 126,384 - OPEN

Trois-Rivières 121,666 - CSL Atack

Guelph 115,635 - OPEN

Kingston 109,431 - OPEN

Sudbury 106,612 - OPEN

Chicoutimi 106,103 - OPEN

Thunder Bay 103,247 - PDL Thunder Bay Chill

Moncton 97,065 - OPEN

so to short that list to already 17. lets get it down to ten and start looking at those cities.

Calgary 991,759

Edmonton 863,544

Ottawa 860,928

Hamilton 647,634

Winnipeg 641,483

Kitchener 422,514

Halifax 282,924

Saskatoon 202,425

Regina 179,246

Barrie 157,501

St. John's 151,322

Sherbrooke 134,610

Kelowna 126,384

Guelph 115,635

Kingston 109,431

Sudbury 106,612

Moncton 97,065

my vote out is Moncton, Sudbury, St. John's, Barrie, Saskatoon, combine Kitchener and Guelph, Regina

leaving

TOP TEN(in order by pop.)

Calgary 991,759

Edmonton 863,544

Ottawa 860,928

Hamilton 647,634

Winnipeg 641,483

Kitchener 422,514 Guelph 115,635

Halifax 282,924

Sherbrooke 134,610

Kelowna 126,384

Kingston 109,431

I like the idea of not even putting in our own personal thoughts of viability yet -- just weed out the obvious "no's" like Tor, Mtl, Van, Vict, and Ott (they have PDL). Then we need to agree if a CSL franchise is an exclusion as well I think it is as I don't think we can expect to compete with them. We need an open market. Then, any city left with a population of over 100,000 is on the table for the initial debate.

Jason

[An Observer]

Personally, as mentioned above, I think you are putting teh cart before the horse here. First, create a viable business plan including corporate governance, budget, etc. and generate a list of pledges. From there, you have a good negotiating stance to go in and get bids from potential cities. If the idea is to narrow the list down to 4 or 5 cities for that purpose, that is fine. However, i would make it an open and transparent process. Encourage cities to bid (ie. use of facilities, local association support, etc.). If for example, you pick Winnipeg and then start your negotiations, you tie one hand behind your back when you start.

[Gordon]

I think An Observer has it more or less right. For example discussions of potential cities has to come after the goals and objectives of the club and its membership/owners are established. If the goal is, for example, USL 1 versus vs. PDL vs. CSL, then there are different factors to be weighed in consideration. Population and economic strength are imporatant, but so are things like the availability of suitable facilities, geographical makeup of the league etc. While specific costs will vary from city to city, being able to consider the full package of bidding cities will allow for the most advantageous location to be indentified.

[hamiltonfan]

I do agree with Observer. However, you must realize what cities are even an option. Even if there are great facilities, and a city full of pledges, we can not make it work in that city if the city is already full with a soccer team. I believe that once we narrow down the list to ten, now nine since Ottawa does have a PDL, W-League team, it will be easier to start researching and negotiating. All nine of the cities on the list have the facilities other than Guelph-KW and I'm not to sure about Kelowna. Dont the have the apple stadium or something like that??

My Top Nine(in order by pop.)

Calgary 991,759

Edmonton 863,544

Hamilton 647,634

Winnipeg 641,483

Kitchener 422,514 Guelph 115,635

Halifax 282,924

Sherbrooke 134,610

Kelowna 126,384

Kingston 109,431

[jpg75]

^ K-W has a small stadium, just off the highway. Might be 5K seating?

I remember watching the Canada-Bolivia U19's(U20) there in 1998...I believe the Kitchener Spirit used to play there?

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

...discussions of potential cities has to come after the goals and objectives of the club and its membership/owners are established.

Totally spot on, hit the nail on the head, bulls-eye!

Until a consensus is reached on the fundamental purpose of this enterprise, talk of what cities and even crafting a business plan are totally premature.

What is the objective?

Is it pro playing spots for Canadians:

• Our objective is to create and manage a team that will provide 18-20 semi-professional spots for players eligible to play on Canada's National teams.

Or is it to provide an amateur experience:

• Our objective is to create and manage a senior amateur team for the development of players eligible to play on Canada's National teams.

Or is it something else entirely?

[River City]

quote:Originally posted by SoccerNewf

3 major points for me are:

- Allow for equal opportunity for all members in controlling the direction of the organization

- At least break-even (viable)

- Develop Canadian Talent

I think SoccerNewf's post summed it up nicely.

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by River City

I think SoccerNewf's post summed it up nicely.

OK, he proposed some guiding principles. What is the objective?

Finish the sentence: Our objective is to...

[River City]

....develop Canadian team by operating our own team in a break-even basis while allowing all members to participate on an equal basis.

[hamiltonfan]

Goal

The ultimate goal of the Our Football Club is to help grow the professional game as well as give Canadians footballers a true stepping stone team. Our Football Club will provide world class soccer to Canada soccer fans alike, truly being the supports team with aspirations of one day playing against the world’s best.

- Sign a minimum of 50-70% Canadian players.

- Depending on league have a few players on professional contracts

- Top coaching

- Break even

- Members should get as many votes as shares bought. Example. A share would be sold for $100. If someone bought 20 shares they get 20 votes, if someone bought 2 shares they get 2 votes.

[SoccerNewf]

quote:Originally posted by ted

Until a consensus is reached on the fundamental purpose of this enterprise, talk of what cities and even crafting a business plan are totally premature.

What is the objective?

Is it pro playing spots for Canadians:

• Our objective is to create and manage a team that will provide 18-20 semi-professional spots for players eligible to play on Canada's National teams.

Or is it to provide an amateur experience:

• Our objective is to create and manage a senior amateur team for the development of players eligible to play on Canada's National teams.

Or is it something else entirely?

I have been thinking about what you have said here for awhile.

See my thinking is that if we are just going to buy a low-level franchise with the overall objective of developing Canadian talent so that they can move on to bigger and better things, then I am out. That should be something done by much smaller organizations or even individuals who would be interest in keeping something small and simple.

Maybe I am getting ahead of the game here, but my overall vision is to grow this into something more then just a NPSL, CSL, or PDL franchise, but that can be a starting point.

Our business objectives should be:

-Buy or Start a soccer franchise that is within the financial means of our organization. (USL-1 might be too big a place to start)

-Run the business so that it is financially viable. Obviously there will be a big investment to purchase the team and equipment, but after that is done, the team needs to be able to make money.

-Promote the team through a marketing campaign. Use whatever means available to us, the cheaper the better, however, aiming for something like an interest piece on CBC news would be an excellent inexpensive way to promote the team.

-Promote soccer in the surrounding community at youth levels, maybe even create youth teams.

-Work with charitable organizations in the community, again as a way to promote the organization as a community organizer.

-To look for more opportunities once the organization has reached a sufficient size and strength.

We have to remember we are running a business here, first and foremost. That is our #1 objective. To make sure this thing is viable. I don't care if you are selling cell phones, or developing soccer talent. Business is business and rule #1 is make money, or well at least break even. However, I know Montreal is run as a not-for-profit organization. I am not sure on the ins-and-outs of this, but it might be something to look into.

Now onto the actual on-field product.

Again, our mandate should be develop Canadian talent. If we are running a PDL level franchise for example, there is no reason we cannot field an all Canadian team. Now, I don't know where this idea of National team players fits in, but that is something outside of our hands at the moment. We are not creating an amateur experience here, we are starting at least as a semi-professional team with the mandate to develop Canadian talent. We need to tap into a market that will supply us with a fresh flow of players that we can put on our team. Obviously some markets already have an abundance of these low-level, semi-professional teams and in my opinion, it would be a mistake to compete with these established franchises.

You have a valid point that there currently is no established objective for the on-field product, but we need to gauge the interest first to see where our starting point is. Obviously, a PDL franchise would have players with different skill sets then a USL-1 or MLS franchise. I would assume we are going to start somewhere in the PDL range. So we cannot expect those players to be on the National team right away, nor can we expect to hold onto those players.

The business and the team have to grown hand-in-hand to the point were they will allow us to develop the players to the point where we can have players play with the National team or sell them to bigger teams.

We have to start somewhere. It all ties back to the fact we need to gauge the interest level and write a business plan. I don't think you can just say right now at this point, "Our objective is to...".

The business plan will be our vision for the path we want to follow, it will be our guide to reach our objectives, but how can we know them if we don't know how much money we will have in our pockets to start with.

I think the biggest question now is how do we figure out how much capital we can expect to have? What types of ownership packages do we offer?

Until the questions like that are answered, this thing is stuck in the mud. However, it seems as though everyone is getting ahead of this.

After reading through the whole topic again. I think the 1 share maximum will not work. For this to work it would mean a fee of somewhere around $100/share. If you look at OurSoccerClubUSA, I think they only have 275 members. I am not sure right now how many members we can expect, but if we did sell shares at say $100 each and put some sort of cap on how much an individual can purchase, but every share counts as vote. Then we may have something that is fair and does not allow 1 person to own a substantial part of the team.

Anyway, I am out for awhile.

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by SoccerNewf

...if we are just going to buy a low-level franchise with the overall objective of developing Canadian talent so that they can move on to bigger and better things, then I am out.

If it is going to be anything less than semi-pro I am out. I have no interest in "investing" in an amateur team. Been there, done that.

[River City]

So Ted and SoccerNewf, to be clear.

What is the lowest level league you woud consider going in at? PDL? USL2?

[Jarrek]

I'd do PDL or USL2.

Here's my idea. Buy out the Toronto Lynx PDL team and rename them Toronto United FC.

[SoccerNewf]

PDL and NPSL for sure. Maybe PCSL and CSL.

Anything below that is amateur in my mind.

Again, it's up to the person themselves to decide what they want to invest their money in and what they consider amateur.

The "objective" for me is to aim as high as possible while maintaining sound business practices.

[Blue and White Army]

I totally agree that a coherent business plan must come first...

...but it terms of eventually choosing a city, I wouldn't just made a list of Canadian cities that don't have soccer clubs. I'd do what the USL does: make the list of all cities without a soccer club, and also note beside each city which other sports club those cities each have. Calgary might not have a soccer club, but they have NHL, CFL, WHL, Northern League baseball, etc. Might be best to choose a city that currently only has one (or zero) sporting club.

[Blue and White Army]

P.S. You can put me down in the "maybe" list for investing. Leaning towards "yes", but don't want to commit pre-maturely...

[Footscray]

While I do agree that a mission statement is a vital first step hand in hand with corporate establishment I do not see any reason that research on cities shouldn't begin as well. Of course I defer to the group sentiment if delaying any research beyond chatting about it is the feeling. Even with the mission statement though, once it goes forward my thoughts are that someone should be responsible for owning the process and moderate a specific discussion or thread at least dedicated to the task rather than trying to pick out ideas from a general thread on the whole concept of a group owned club.

As for the business plan - there can be multiple drafts but anything worth the paper it is written on will be specific to one city and needs to happen later in the process. It can be pulled together as we go but it will only near completion with much much more background information. The different cost of doing business between say Halifax and Calgary varies more than that between many countries in Europe. More importantly, the revenue streams will vary wildly by location - the fund raising and grant options if we go the NPO route are very different by province and even city as are the potential ticket revenue streams by population size. An extremely vague general plan is going to have limited usefulness for any purpose other than our internal planning - there are going to be a ton of assumptions as it is and if we have no awareness of the location or facility...

Also not trying to be facetious but cities in a bidding war for a semi-pro soccer team in Canada is extremely unlikely. A particular market may be easier to work with and provide better facilities at a lower cost and a local association may offer more support which I think will be unearthed during the research stage. I would love to be proven wrong and have cities begging us to start up there but I am sceptical.

[hamiltonfan]

quote:Originally posted by SoccerNewf

PDL and NPSL for sure. Maybe PCSL and CSL.

Anything below that is amateur in my mind.

the PDL is a purely amateur league. As for the NPSL, I have never even hear of it and would neverplan on having a Canadian Supports owned club in an American mens league.

PCSL would be an ok start, however again, its an amateur league. Seems like good quality.

My vote would be CSL. Low taravel cost, there are full pro teams in the league. The leagues in the best shape its ever been. Its Canadian. Many many players have come for the CSL, even some who now play on the national team. and i can see the league being more welcoming to the V's club.

[KAS]

I have been trying to just lurk here because I have already posted alot, but there have been so many good and bad ideas here that I really have to get a few points out:

- At the moment, nothing has actually been raised. You need to get a good idea of how much money you can raise initially for franchise fee and other start-up costs, and how much you can secure going forward. Only then, can you discuss what league to join. Once you have done that, then markets, populations bases, and stadium discussions come into play. Once again: how much money is in the pot? What league can we afford? What city has the market and stadium to meet the needs of that league?

- The latest lists of cities have left out Oshawa/Durham. I know that there have been failures there (EVERYBODY SHOULD READ THROUGH THE LISTS OF TEAMS IN THE "DEFUNCT CANADIAN SOCCER CLUBS" CATEGORY ON WIKIPEDIA FOR RESARCH PURPOSES ON CITIES/STADIUMS TRIED AND REASONS FOR FAILURE), but it is worthy of some consideration due to population base, income/education stats, soccer community and acceptable stadium.

- Crossing out Vancouver and Victoria may make sense, but I would like to see Burnaby added to the list. The Whitecaps are going downtown, so Swanguard may become available (this all depends on the other Whitecaps teams also leaving) and there is probably an established base of locals who do not want to go into Vancouver and pay alot of money. There might be enough locals who want their game to stay local and affordable to keep a team going as you don't need USL1 attendence if your in PCSL.

- Ottawa has PDL and W-League. Calgary, Edmonton, and Winnipeg are all open for W-league, and I think they are open for Men's leagues.

- If you are planning on starting in a lower league and then working up, then USL makes sense as they have their own ladder. Bear in mind, you will have to pick a market from the start that can handle USL1 if that is the eventual goal as moving cities as well as leagues is too much hassle. Once again, Calgary, Edmonton, and Winnipeg seem fairly open if you can stomach the travel costs.

- I know I have written this before, but if an amateur team is all that can be afforded, then it is better to go with the women then the men. The USL charges twice as much in franchise fees for PDL, (which is third/fourth tier and players are far removed from National Team), then it does for W-league (first tier in Canada, and at the moment, North America - can have CURRENT NT players on squad).

If this project is about developing players for Canada, then the very limited dollars available will stretch alot further with the women's game then the men's.

- For reasons that are too numerous to list (it would take its' own post), the NPSL idea won't work.

- If you want men's pro soccer, then USL1 would be best. If that is too much, then CSL makes the most sense. USL2 would not necessarily be higher quality than CSL, but the travel costs would be alot higher. I would rather spend money on better salaries and coaching than travel.

- Regarding CSL, I *think* that a Brampton CSL may be for sale. Hamilton had some success in the past and is now open, while Kingston has been looked at but never tried. I think the "Other Men's Leagues & Clubs" forum here would be a great place to start asking questions. Rocket Robin knows everybody and is an expert on this league. CSL Commissioner Cary Kaplan has posted here before as "CSL Commissioner", but not lately. In July/August 2006, there were 2-3 great threads on V-board that I participated in about the CSL where he made several posts and it included things like franchise fees ($100-160K!), market studies, and other plans.

- When the Hartrells decided to drop the Lynx from USL1 to PDL, some questioned why they didn't just move the USL1 team to Hamilton. It would have made alot of sense to me - they already had the right colours. Perhaps the stadiums are a case of one too big and one too small? Whether CSL or USL1, Hamilton makes alot of sense.

- Since the Hartrells are always being criticised for how they run things and driving fans away (and therefore losing money), perhaps an offer could be made to buy the entire Lynx organization from them. They would stop losing money, and the venture would now have a PDL and W-League team in Canada's largest city. As a TFC fan, I know all about the MLS behemouth at BMO, but there is alot of untapped potential there that a larger and more competent ownership group could capitalise on. A move out of Centennial and either to Varsity full-time (only one home!), or even the new pitch at Lamport (Mayor Miller is a soccer fan who helped create BMO and goes to the games - maybe he will get us a deal) would work if there is a large ownership group and a healthy advertising budget.

- sorry for the length of this. I really had to vent.

[gkhs]

I won't contribute as expansive an opinion, but I think our goal should be to create a new option for Canadian Professional</u> soccer players.

In essence, I think job creation is the goal.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have a few guys around who wish to maintain their NCAA eligibility, but my impression was that our mandate was to make it more practical for players to carry on playing...the best way to do that is to pay them.