Buy our own Football Team!

[tmcmurph]

quote:Originally posted by hamiltonfan

could we make this an investment rather than a "membership or subscription"? Should be able to get out of the investment when you want selling your shares in the team. A share should be sold at a min. of $50 with a max of 100 shares. As the team builds and increases value, as will the shares. Or what if we got a 2-3 big timers owning no more than 20%. Without exceeding 49%. This way no one would have the majority vote.

The hard part would really be finding a city everyone agrees on. I wouldnt invest unless the team was starting off in the CSL. I no that sounds narrow minded, however, I just feel with travel cost the PDL is not worth it. Also the PDL season is so short with no real way of growning your team into something big as it must purely ameuter. Although the francise fee is high, I do think that would be the overall best league.

I don't see how an investment would work. You could sell the shares but to whom? You would be competing with the team for customers. The team will need new cash inflows and if someone is selling then the team doesn't get the influx.

Also if you make it an investment can you get a non-profit status? Without NFP status I don't think you can get casino dates.

As to the city I think it should be in whatever city we can get the most members to work a casino. Getting 80 to 100 thousand every 18 months goes a long way in a venture like this.

I would be in for 100 a year regardless of where the team is located.

[Aljarov]

You can put me on the list of interested parties. I've been close to getting involved a couple of times without ever pulling the trigger for a team down here in Kentucky (no teams here at even the PDL level, ridiculous for a state of about 4.5m). I've been mulling the Ebbsfleet situation ever since i heard about it. The idea is genious.

Anyways...I wanted to chime in with some additional thoughts:

1. PDL teams are folding ALL the time. Thus, despite a $50k tag (and it was $35k recently...has it really gone up that much?) it might be possible to get hooked up with a failed franchise and buy them out cheaper. To be honest...with the turnover in the USL D1 and D2 that option could apply across the board.

2. A league you've not considered is the NPSL...it's considered the #1 rival league to the PDL and is CONSIDERABLY cheaper. Again, I've been in discussions about the NPSL with their league for about 3-4 months now and they are both considered to be on the same tier. Personally, I think the NPSL is a little lower but is literally blowing up expansion wise. Most importantly, I have all the league info for the NPSL and we could get in for about $11k start up. I will post more about the NPSL shortly.

3. Has anyone consdered buying out an existing CSL team, again, as opposed to a new expansion side? We wouldn't necessarily have to rebrand, we could do like Ebbsfleet and keep them going. Perhaps a side that has financial issues and could do with investment. Any of which could help attract a positive response from the current ownership. Done properly, this could be a serious media boon as it has been in England and that would be an attractive asset to put on the table when we approach to buy.

4. Why limit it to something that we can buy outright? We could seek to partner with a money person to lift us up to USL D1 (not MLS, I'll be somewhat realistic). As long as they were on board with the membership set up, this would still allow them to have an investment, like #3 that might benefit from the media attention we would bring.

I'll have more thoughts that I'll collect and post here.

[Aljarov]

What about two options:

1. A lifetime membership for $1k

2. An annual subscription for $100 (or maybe even less)?

Both with single vote privilidges, and no board implications etc... that should all be elected, not bought.

[Aljarov]

Basically, this is an up-and-coming alternative to the PDL. It's blowing up but the time to get in is now, while it's still cheap.

They currently have a North East region, Buffalo being the nearest team.

The NPSL - Naptional Professional Soccer League

http://www.nationalpremiersoccerleague.com/LoadPage.aspx?iPage=24-48

The National Premier Soccer League (NPSL), is the successor of the Men’s Premier Soccer League (MPSL) which formed in 2002. In 2005, the league had been recreated into an expanded national league to accommodate teams from the Midwestern region, and in 2007 a Northeastern Region was added. In 2008, the National Premier Soccer League has become truly a national league with the addition of a Southeastern region. Each team plays a minimum of 10 to a maximum of 16 regular season games. The teams are comprised of players who play at the highest levels of soccer available to men.

The NPSL is sanctioned by the United States Adult Soccer Association (USASA) as an affiliate of the United States Soccer Federation (USSF), the ruling body for soccer in the United States and FIFA the world’s ruling body for soccer. Integrity, Success and Longevity is what the National Premier Soccer League stands for. The NPSL operates and is managed as a team run league. The structure of the league will allow each participating team to have one vote on the executive committee. Each team is owned and operated individually, and is responsible for maintaining league minimum standards and for raising its own operating cash. The existing team owners, that comprise the league management team, approve all new teams who desire to join the league.

The 2008 edition of the NPSL:

Northwest Region : Salinas Valley, CA ; San Jose, CA; Santa Cruz, C A; Sonoma County, C A; and Sacramento, C A .

Southwest Region : San Diego, California; Denver, Colorado; El Paso, Texas; Colorado Springs, Colorado; Albuquerque, New Mexico;

Midwest Region: Minneapolis, Minnesota; St. Paul, Minnesota; Milwaukee, Minnesota; Madison, Wisconsin; and Indianapolis, Indiana.

Northeast Region : Buffalo, New York; Boston, Massachusetts; Bangor, Maine; New York City; Long Island, New York; Morristown, New Jersey; Atlantic City, New Jersey; Lancaster, Pennsylvania; Allentown, Pennsylvania; and Silver Spring, Maryland.

Southeast Region: Greenville, SC; Atlanta, GA; Huntsville, AL; Birmingham, AL

This highly competitive league helps all the teams gain access to elite players to fill their team roster, including but not limited to National Team, former and current University and College, foreign, amateur, former professional and youth players.

What are the goals of the NPSL?

Provide the highest level of men's soccer and strive to continuously raise the overall standard of play

Pursue every avenue of promotion, advertising and community involvement to create public awareness and interest in the NPSL

Ensure that all teams enter the league with and maintain financial stability

What makes the NPSL unique?

*Professionally operated teams and league

*Teams comprised of players holding amateur playing status (high school, college and former professionals) all on the same field at one time

*Players maintain college eligibility and play at a very high level

Showcase for players to college and professional coaches

*Owners of the teams comprise the ownership and operation of the league

*Low entry cost and low monthly dues for league membership

*Very competitive

*Professionally designed, maintained and operated web site, real time statistics, online purchasing, real time game reports, scrolling updated news bits

What are the league costs?

•$5,000 - Entrance Fee – 3K in the first year, 2K in the 2nd year

•$5,000 - Performance Bond – paid before NPSL AGM (returned to team if team shows for all games, pays all league fees after the season)

•$2,000 - Playoff pool - playoff pool is split between playoff participants

•$250 per month - Monthly Dues for January through August

•$250 - Team Fee - annual team registration fee

•$16 per player - Player registration – up to 26 players

•$300 per game - Referee Fees – League minimum, could vary depending on region (paid directly to Officials by the home team at game time)

What are some of the NPSL minimum standards?•Season may start no earlier that the 2nd week of April and end no later than 1st weekend of August, varies by region

•All players must be registered with USASA and/or USSF as amateurs, but no other age or nationality restrictions apply – max of 26 active players on a roster

•Home team provides 7 hotel rooms to visiting team – AAA 2 Diamond Rated hotel minimum

•Game Facility – min. 500 seat stadium, home/away locker rooms with showers, ref’s changing room with showers, PA system, scoreboard, clock, US Flag, 65x110 minimum size

•2 sets of 26 complete numbered uniforms

•Home provides athletic trainer for both teams at all games

•Game Day publication provided by home team

[Aljarov]

One more thing about the NPSL....

It's sufficiently cheap at this point that the Trust could perhaps do something unprecidented - buy an entire conference at once...or at least multiple teams.

My thought on this is to have localiszed groups of voyageaurs/investors as well as a national collective. Perhaps best not to have them in the same conference, but you know that never stoppd AEG/HSG/MLS etc... So we could have an Albert Chapter...perhpas even down to by City...so start with 'Aberta' and then expand to Calgary and Edmonton etc....

Does that make sense?

Anyways...I have a ton more NPSL information and actually I've been in contact with the guys at Queens City FC (Buffalo) as well as the head of the South East (where my Lexington or Louisville team would play).

[tmcmurph]

quote:Originally posted by Aljarov

One more thing about the NPSL....

It's sufficiently cheap at this point that the Trust could perhaps do something unprecidented - buy an entire conference at once...or at least multiple teams.

My thought on this is to have localiszed groups of voyageaurs/investors as well as a national collective. Perhaps best not to have them in the same conference, but you know that never stoppd AEG/HSG/MLS etc... So we could have an Albert Chapter...perhpas even down to by City...so start with 'Aberta' and then expand to Calgary and Edmonton etc....

Does that make sense?

Anyways...I have a ton more NPSL information and actually I've been in contact with the guys at Queens City FC (Buffalo) as well as the head of the South East (where my Lexington or Louisville team would play).

Would they be open to a Northern league? Their idea of northwest is all northwest California. Keeping travel expenses down is a prime concern.

Interesting alternative to consider.

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by Aljarov

Basically, this is an up-and-coming alternative to the PDL.

Great, just what we need in NA, yet another frickin "senior" men's league.

So, to recap, we can now have the CPSL, PDL and the NPSL all competing in Central Canada for the same players, sponsors and fans.

This whole buying a club idea might have had some merit when we were talking about a pro team but the further down the pyramid we go the more pointless it becomes. And now another "splitter" league being added to the mix?

Does no one know the history of Soccer on this continent?

"Competition" might be fine for the business world but when it comes to soccer leagues in North America the history of competing leagues is one of failures, bankruptcies and the destruction of our national team programs.

For every two steps forward jokers like the NPSL drag us back one step.

I feel the same urge to jump onboard this concept because it makes us feel like we are doing something. But really, where is it gonna get us if we pour thousands of dollars into an amateur team in a regional league? How does that contribute to the success of our national team? It certainly doesn't help our local clubs and leagues.

Sorry to rain on a parade that is already forming up but these questions should really be answered before more dollars and hours are invested in a concept that is still, from my perspective, almost totally directionless.

You are doing a lot of work with the best intentions but it is starting to remind me of a favorite "demotivator":

[River City]

I completely disagree Ted.

For the most part, the NPSL serves markets that the USL hasn't gone into. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Especially since the USL started small and has been able to develop into what it is now over a number of years. The NPSL could end up packing it in in a few years. Or it could grow and become a sister organization to the USL. Remember the NFL is made up of two different conferences. Same with baseball, where each even play with different rules.

Aljarov's main point is that this league is still significantly cheap to get into and could be worth our while. Especially since there is no USL in Central Canada. We need a league and from my recollection, the USL turned down a PDL franchise application in Winnipeg, implying they want USL-1 teams even though the investment levels needed aren't visible in Central Canada.

By your argument it could also be said that the PCSL, being as low in the pyramid as it is, is pointless. But I think that it fills a need in the Pacific Northwest, and thanks to the countless hours put in by dedicated volunteers, staff and teams, it continues to exist quite nicely. The result is that college-level players have a high level competition to play in in the college off-season. Nothing wrong with providing development/playing opportunities.

[ted]

Lets be clear what we are talking about before this gets out of control. I apologize if I mixed up two different topics. I will try to clarify what I mean.

Re: Appropriate investment

I am NOT trying to stifle the creation and operation of teams for developing young players. I am questioning the need for a massive investment of money from across the nation to start up a team in the "third division" (CPSL/PCSL/PDL/NPSL/whatever).

There are lots of teams at this level and adding one more team will have relatively little impact on a national scale.

A first divison team (MLS) is financially impossible.

That leaves us with the second division (USL Div1). IMO the best opportunity for significant impact would be one a team that employs 18-20 Canadian players on at least a semi-pro basis. That, to me, is the crucial point: professional players.

No one has yet to explain why I would want to invest $1,000's of dollars in the Moose Jaw Wanderers playing in the North-Central Division of the Mid-Continent League for the best "senior amateur" players in Moose Jaw?

How does an investment in such a team make any sort of difference to the national team?

Now, if the point of all this is simply to be "in charge" of a club, any club, I am out. I just resigned from the BoD of Vic United recently and I tell you now if you want to be involved just show up. Most clubs are desperate for volunteers and getting on the board is a matter of "investing" your time.

The reason it works in England is because they have promotion and relegation. Clubs there can start at the level of our local city leagues and progress upwards to the EPL. There it could make sense to buy a lower-division team. Here it makes no sense as there is nowhere to go.

Now the other issue.

Re: NPSL

quote:Originally posted by River City

For the most part, the NPSL serves markets that the USL hasn't gone into.

The USL would go anywhere a reasonable business case could be made. You can believe all the propaganda you want from the USL or the NPSL . If you check it out I would bet that the NPSL was started by a couple of guys with money who were either rejected by the USL for business reasons or just want to run their own show without having to negotiate with anyone. I have never heard of the NPSL before today so I am speaking in broad general terms here, but based on history and experience of these sorts of leagues I doubt the creation of the NPSL was simply for the good of the game.

Positive mission statements and declarations of intentions are all well and good but anyone starting a league in competition with something as wide-spread and established as the USL has some explaining to do before they can be seen as anything other than egomaniacs out for a quick buck.

So in summary: investing in professional, meaningful development of players is something I would support. Throwing money at just another amatuer team, pointless.

All of the hard work being done will be for naught unless some clear goal for this scheme is presented.

EDIT: just went to the NPSL site and part of the answer is right in their tagline: "A league run by teams instead of teams run by a league". Clearly organized by someone who wanted to be in charge rather than working within an organization. [xx(]

[River City]

No need to apologise Ted. You did bring up valid points and I was trying to address them by placing them within a larger context. My apologies if I sounded like I was trying to pick a fight which I wasn't.

INVESTMENT

While I'd love to see us raise enough money to get a USL div 1 franchise, I don't think we'd be able to operate it for long based on the significant financial investment required. I think our best option and technically, Canada's best option is to start at the ground level and build our way up from there. I was thinking that PDL or the CSL would be the way to go since it's cheaper, and we do need to keep the costs down, but this league might be the answer.

We need to put all available options on the table, determine the pros and cons for each one and go from there.

MARKET

I agree that adding a team or teams in areas where there are other leagues already in existence wouldn't benefit the national talent pool, but if we look at where Canada lacks teams it is in Edmonton, Calgary and Winnipeg. Regina, Saskatoon could be added on just to make it viable for a Central Canadian division. There are talented players in these markets that could do with an inter-provincial competition. And yeah, I wouldn't invest in the Moose Jaw Wanderers either.

BEING IN CHARGE

The USL pretty much started with Francisco Marcos running a one-man show that was able to outlast a bunch of other regional leagues and gain strength. He could have easily joined up with another league and helped to make that work, but chose instead to do his own thing. Ambition is good, and if the NPSL guys have that, great for them.

I agree that if we're only in this for the experience of running a team, I'm out as well, as I've run my own team in Edmonton for 10 years (started in Div 9, went as high as Div 3, now play in Div 4). It takes up a tremendous amount of time, money and sanity. But I think we have significantly more important objectives than that and which is why I wholeheartedly support the concept.

NPSL

To bring back Edmonton as an example, let's assume we raise enough cash to buy and operate a USL Div 1 franchise in Edmonton for 3 years. If there are no franchises in Calgary, Winnipeg and two other cities along the northern US border at the end of those 3 years, it will be financially disadvantageous to continue. This thing needs to be financially viable. I believe this is why there are no USL Div 1 franchises in Edmonton, or Calgary or Kentucky or most of the places the NPSL operates. To have one guy try and lose his money because there are no other regional teams, is unworkable.

Apart from the low cost of a franchise fee, the main advantage of the league is the concept that the teams do run the league. If we were to run 5 clubs as suggested, as owners, we'd essentially have total control of how we develop our conference so that we have a focus on player development. Player recruitment, linking with TFC, Caps and Impact, assistance from the CSA, potential partnerships with PCSL, AMSL, CSL, CMISL would follow.

Our focus regardless of the health of the rest of the league, is to make our franchises successful. If the league were to fold, our conference could go on. If we have one PDL team and the league folds (unlikely), we're out of luck.

Essentially we share the same sentiments but disagree on the tactics. And yes, I would have to be 100% sure that this league is viable and workable before voting on putting in whatever money we raise toward its coffers. Just like I'd have to be 100% sure that one PDL or CSL franchise is the way to go. Just like I'd have to be 100% sure that a USL Div 1 team could be financially viable.

[Aljarov]

Ted...read up a bit on the NPSL before you start to spout off and strike it down.

The NPSL has boomed as a way to combat the escalating PDL franchise fees that was causing most of their new start-ups to fold as between that and annual dues it was near impoosible to make a profit. I research the PDL as part of my Sports interactive duties and every year there is about 20% turnover in a league. That's just insane.

The NPSL also isn't new - it's been around since 2002 and was a rollover from the MPSL. Basically, it was more of a regional league until relatively recently when the PDL essentially helped them grow by their prohibitively high expansion fees - which are now higher than pro fees for USL2.

I'd also agree to a point what you're saying about the investment versus return; of course, at $5k, it wouldn't be neccessary for everyone to pony up $1k...not for NPSL. We could start small and move over. Unlike the British equivalent when promotion can help with a return on investment, here that doens work. However, once a team is built up both in terms of profile, results and infrastructure there is absolutely no reason why it couldn't pay the fee and move up...either keep this old franchise to run a feeder team, or selling it help subsidise the new franchise fee.

I think you need to be more open minded. We need to assess the interest, and where that would truly place us in terms of ambitions. We need to then pitch in at an appropriate level. If we somehow raised $500k, well, who says a USL D1 team is still out of reach? If we come up with only $20k, well hen yeah, probably is and we need to reassess....but for now it should be a drive to be as good as we can be, without over committing. This is a long-term plan to aid in the development of the game in this country. I think the CSL might be our best avenue to be honest, as i think most leagues fees will stand to incerase as MLS grows in popularity. We've already seen MLS expansion fees go from $10m to a reported $40m+ for the next round. PDL has also done the same.

Right now there is at least 1 USL D1 franchise not being used fromt he folded California Victory...their owners could be open to a reduced price, or perhaps even a lease arrangement of their franchise and move it to a location of our choice. Who knows. Soccer at the minor league level is like everything else- open to negotiation.

A few years ago (4-5) I looked at SPHL franchises. The league was set up by the same guy who originally launched the ECHL and had decided he was going to come back in to the market. I had an opportunity for a franchise at a ridiculously low price....but I was a little weary of the new competition etc.. (Much was roll overs from the ACHL and the WHL2). Anyways, the reason I didn't jump in was because I felt if Lexington or Louisville was to have a team, the other needed to as well to play off of the natural rivalry. Without it, there simply wouldn't be enough support to sustain it (even though I think Louisville in particualr is an excelletn hockey market, as unlikely as it seems...ECHL level they never averaged less than 3000 paid admission). Anyways...before I digress too much, my point is that as long as the infrastructure is in place for any league that we go into, well we stand a chance to make it work.

Where are the members from? Geopgrahically, one of the boons of this system is an instant fan following. Sure, we'd be investors - but thus our vested interest would sharpen our interest in the team and the league. We'd buy shirts and attend games...market the team through word of mouth...it would essentially be OUR team, and we've seen how passionate we are as follows of a team/teams we don't own...but feel a part of. Anyways..if 50% turn out to be in Ontario...I'd suggest we look at a team there...then consider the league. Bottom line - two considerations - 1) Where we are to support a team, 2) What markets are available and make sense to invest in and at what level.

[Aljarov]

quote:Originally posted by River City

NPSL

To bring back Edmonton as an example, let's assume we raise enough cash to buy and operate a USL Div 1 franchise in Edmonton for 3 years. If there are no franchises in Calgary, Winnipeg and two other cities along the northern US border at the end of those 3 years, it will be financially disadvantageous to continue. This thing needs to be financially viable. I believe this is why there are no USL Div 1 franchises in Edmonton, or Calgary or Kentucky or most of the places the NPSL operates. To have one guy try and lose his money because there are no other regional teams, is unworkable.

Apart from the low cost of a franchise fee, the main advantage of the league is the concept that the teams do run the league. If we were to run 5 clubs as suggested, as owners, we'd essentially have total control of how we develop our conference so that we have a focus on player development. Player recruitment, linking with TFC, Caps and Impact, assistance from the CSA, potential partnerships with PCSL, AMSL, CSL, CMISL would follow.

I think you've hit the nail on the head...in my talks with the NPSL there are no teams here near Kentucky...the nearest would be in GA, some 5-6 hours away. If Kentuckyw as to get a team it would require a local region of teams that could support one another, not just froma rivlary standpoint, but for a cost standpoint. Having teams near by is essential at the minor league level. For Lexington to come in, we nned a team in Louisville, Cincinnati, Knoxville, Nashville, Indianapolis or a minimum of 4. They wont expand until they have 4+ ownership groups that meet the criteria. That would be what we would need to ensure at whatever level we jumped in at. The CSL is at least regional.

I think it would be interesting for those in the know to make a list of areas and proposed level for teams so that we can get an idea.

For example - Ottawa, CSL. Hamilton, CSA etc....

[Aljarov]

quote:Originally posted by ted

EDIT: just went to the NPSL site and part of the answer is right in their tagline: "A league run by teams instead of teams run by a league". Clearly organized by someone who wanted to be in charge rather than working within an organization. [xx(]

I think you've missed the point on this quite monumentally....

The NPSL is an organization, whereby the teams, or a representative from each team makes up the leagues controlling body. This is like the EPL, for example. What it's not like is MLS, whereby the league's are owners of a franchise and MLS has control. It's actually a typical league operating structure outside of North AMerica.

[Aljarov]

...okay...I might as well keep going here.

One other thing that should also be on the table is creating our own league. Essentially an extension of becoming part of say the NPSL and doing our own conference...we could look to establish a league similar in concept to the PCSL or CSL (levels 4/3 respectively on the pyramid) but based in the central area. To me there seems to be an absence of a 'top flight' league in the middle of the coutry.

In America the PDL, NPSL and PCSL are all considered Level 4. As it happens the PCSL is level 4 in Canada, but the PDL is level 5.

My point would be to use our investment to do the alternative to the NPSL and become the MLS 'single entity'. We could use out money to launch the league and recruit the highest level teams on board in the region from Alberta, Manitboa etc...

I don't know how feasible that is because I know nothing of soccer in that region, but on the face of it, those area are the only part of the country not represented by the CSL or PCL. By bcoming the middle group we could help work towards a domestic championship playoff similar to the Memorial Cup (CHL) if that helps.

Under this model, we could perhps separately own or operate a team, or number of teams (either new, or acquired) in said league....think of us as a benevolent Canada-first AEG equivalent.

I don't think the formation of the league would actually be that expensive, not at this kind of level, and it would allow us to side step franchise fee costs associated with joining an established league, while servincing an area of the country currently untapped. The concept should be well received, as it would allow a way to represent the country's entirety (well main population centres anyways) and by mimicking the CHL, helps build a defacto Canadain League Championship...assuming cooperation on a nation level with the PCSL/CSL. Remmebr...the way things are being set up, the Canada CUp (or whatever the abortion of a name it has ended up with) has considered using the Open Canada Cup as a means to get a 4th entrant...thus a real, bona fide opportunity to seize the limelight from obscurity exists. I'm not suggesting we could craft a team that would win that, but by even getting to it (thus wiunning the Open Canada Cup) we would have achieved a signifaicant goal.

I'm waffling now, but hopefully I've made enough of a point on here for it to make sense.

[tmcmurph]

Just a thought but what happens to the Montreal and Vancouver USL-1 franchise when they go MLS? Is it possible to do a no charge transfer and startup a farm team in Ottawa (close and 1 million+ in population)? For the Caps upgrade Victoria or Cal/Edm?

Being a fan owned team would also lessen the expenses for the MLS side. For 1 MLS franchise fee you could run a USL-1 team for 3 decades.

That would be the only way I can see us affording the 1 million+ a year in opperating costs that the USL-1 has.

Any ideas? Comments?

[Footscray]

quote:Originally posted by tmcmurph

Just a thought but what happens to the Montreal and Vancouver USL-1 franchise when they go MLS? Is it possible to do a no charge transfer and startup a farm team in Ottawa (close and 1 million+ in population)? For the Caps upgrade Victoria or Cal/Edm?

Being a fan owned team would also lessen the expenses for the MLS side. For 1 MLS franchise fee you could run a USL-1 team for 3 decades.

That would be the only way I can see us affording the 1 million+ a year in opperating costs that the USL-1 has.

Any ideas? Comments?

I think that approaching the existing pro teams in Canada about some sort of partnership is smart, whether it is for affiliation or just to lean on the expertise if they care to offer it. The owners of Montreal and Vancouver have shown long term commitments to growing the game here and I hope they might help even in some small way. Also if purchasing a discounted franchise from a dormant ownership group is allowed by a league it is worth exploring.

The notion of a regional league in the prairie provinces is a big idea. I really like it but I wonder if it is too much to take on and how far we have the resources to advance it. As of right now I am more comfortable in succeeding with the amount of work involved in the one club concept and maybe growing from there.

Not sure if anyone has already taken further steps but I think that forming a loose research/steering committee in the next 1-3 months is vital. Research on potential leagues, markets, website and layout along with governance needs to take place in a more focused and organized manner. Particularly having the options for corporate structure in front of us in black and white in the foreseeable future is crucial. I would like to hear from others about when a steering committee should be established. This shouldn't be a board or make any decisions only focus on fact finding. With the amount of work to do I think anyone who wants to be involved can take away at least a small piece of research, whether it is documenting available facilities and demographics in a given city, researching available grants/fund raising opportunities in a given province, contacting leagues for information or asking about (or providing) options for governance.

I don't know anything about this website (http://www.polldaddy.com/) but something like it to take a vote on startup time line would have a lot of value in my mind. I think that time to discuss the idea and gather interest here is important but that we are limited in how much more interest we will generate on this board.

[hamiltonfan]

We should start moving forward with this and being talks with different leagues.

Right now if we look at the leagues we would be going after. A team in either Southern Ontario or Quebec would work best. A team in BC in the PDL would also work with Victory, Vancouver and the Rangers. If we are thinking about the CSL a team in Hamilton(had the leagues best fan support when the thunder were around)Ottawa, tri-Cty(KW, Guelph) would work.

[Jason]

Wow - I haven't been around much lately so I feel a bit of a late comer to this thread. I have a lot of thoughts, comments, and responses to some of the posts, but I'll start with a few things:

I know a few things about the operation of a PDL club and from what I can tell, a PDL side would be the best option. If things went well, a W-League side could be added. A PDL expansion fee is US $75K. If we were really lacking funds, we could get a W-League club for US $35K. The beauty of a PDL club is that there are typically no salaries. Most players sign amateur deals so not to affect their NCAA scholarships. However, you can still sign non scholarship players to zero dollar pro contracts, which means you could sell them.

The location is a debate. I think the candidates are Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, or Halifax. I am working on the basis that southern Ontario is tied up by the Lynx and we would stay out of existing pro and PDL markets. Winnipeg has been somewhat rebuffed by the PDL in the past because of travel concerns. I'm not familiar enough with Halifax. Calgary is relatively close to travel to conference games in the Pacific Northwest and Utah. No city has great facilities. My vote is Calgary, but I admit my local bias.

I'm pretty sure that a PDL club could be run for $150K/year. However, this is when the club is either a one man operation (I know of examples) or an extension of an amateur club. But since we would need to hire staff, I suspect we would be looking at expenses at $250K/year if we ran a bare bones operation. We would need at least three staff - football operations/coach, business/marketing director, and an operations manager. This would suck up at least half of the budget.

If we could raise a year's worth of operating funds plus start up fees, it could work. Perhaps we could convince TFC to come for a friendly as I'm sure they want to market themselves nationally. They would draw a good crowd.

Depending on the setup, I could also be in for $1000.

Jason

[River City]

Should we assign specific individuals to do research on all possible cities and all possible leagues?

There's a lot of suggestions for committees to be setup, but with the geographical differences between us, that may not be the best bet. I can do all the research for Edmonton (for example), with someone taking Calgary, someone else Winnipeg, someone else exploring PDL as a league, CSL, etc.

Once all the info is done, we can post it on the oursoccerclub.ca and we can do a vote to see where people's interests are. One the league and city(ies) are selected, it will be easier for us to move forward in soliciting money since we have concrete objectives rather than just a vague concept.

BTW, the level of intelligent discussion on this thread is amazing....I thought for sure it would have degenerated into a few naysayers goading the rest of us by now....scary to think we may actually be able to pull this off.

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by Aljarov

In America the PDL, NPSL and PCSL are all considered Level 4. As it happens the PCSL is level 4 in Canada, but the PDL is level 5.

Just a quick correction. The PCSL is a recognised "third division" in Canada. MLS=Div1; USL-1=Div2; CSPL,PCSL=Div3.

[ted]

My apologies for this side-discussion. Please skip to the next message for the actual discussion of a fan-owned club.

quote:Originally posted by Aljarov

I think you've missed the point on this quite monumentally....

The NPSL is an organization, whereby the teams, or a representative from each team makes up the leagues controlling body. This is like the EPL, for example. What it's not like is MLS, whereby the league's are owners of a franchise and MLS has control. It's actually a typical league operating structure outside of North AMerica.

Actually I understand it far better than you. I was, for the previous ten years, on the BoD of a PCSL team and have been to league AGM's. I understand the governance structure of all types of leagues from the MLS single-entity system to the fully democratic Football League in England. Saying that the EPL is more democratic than MLS shows that you do not understand how it works. The MLSE who have the rights to operate TFC are also part owners of the league along with all the other "team" owners. The difference is in the details of the legal agreements but in practical terms the groups that make decisions about the two leagues are more similar than you seem to imagine.

What you are missing is that the USL has an AGM each year and decisions are made by the "league" which is, as in most sports, the owners of the teams. The NPSL can say it is different but in their day-to-day operations I can guarantee they do not put every single question to a vote by teams. I guarantee that if a team owner tried to do something the NPSL saw as harming the league they would shut him down as fast as the USL.

Claiming the NPSL is more "democratic" than the USL just because the NPSL says so is absurd. Every league has to have commissioner or equivalent and a league staff to make operational decisions.

Every league has owners who don't like decisions made by the league but only in America are such whiners encouraged to secede and start up their own leagues. Only in North America could they not only make it happen but receive congratulations from people who think "the market" is all-powerful and always the way to decide any issue.

Anyway, I know you won't be changing your mind and clearly I won't either but if you really need to keep this discussion going I suggest you start a new thread rather than clog this one with a mostly irrelevant side-issue.

Thanks.

[Jason]

quote:Originally posted by River City

Should we assign specific individuals to do research on all possible cities and all possible leagues?

There's a lot of suggestions for committees to be setup, but with the geographical differences between us, that may not be the best bet. I can do all the research for Edmonton (for example), with someone taking Calgary, someone else Winnipeg, someone else exploring PDL as a league, CSL, etc.

Once all the info is done, we can post it on the oursoccerclub.ca and we can do a vote to see where people's interests are. One the league and city(ies) are selected, it will be easier for us to move forward in soliciting money since we have concrete objectives rather than just a vague concept.

BTW, the level of intelligent discussion on this thread is amazing....I thought for sure it would have degenerated into a few naysayers goading the rest of us by now....scary to think we may actually be able to pull this off.

Before any research of cities happen, we would need to agree on the criteria of what we'd be looking for (market size, venue, etc). Then we'd need to decide which cities qualify.

Jason

[Jason]

quote:Originally posted by Aljarov

One more thing about the NPSL....

It's sufficiently cheap at this point that the Trust could perhaps do something unprecidented - buy an entire conference at once...or at least multiple teams.

My thought on this is to have localiszed groups of voyageaurs/investors as well as a national collective. Perhaps best not to have them in the same conference, but you know that never stoppd AEG/HSG/MLS etc... So we could have an Albert Chapter...perhpas even down to by City...so start with 'Aberta' and then expand to Calgary and Edmonton etc....

Does that make sense?

Anyways...I have a ton more NPSL information and actually I've been in contact with the guys at Queens City FC (Buffalo) as well as the head of the South East (where my Lexington or Louisville team would play).

Sorry, but I can't see how we could ever put together a conference of clubs. The sheer logistics and manpower of running multiple sites would be huge. I'd rather run one operation well instead of spreading myself thin over a conference, even if they allowed it, which I think is unlikely. We are from from being AEG.

Re: NPSL. I don't like it for three reasons.

One - there is no history of any Canadian clubs. Who knows if they are interested?

Two - with their current geography, I only see the following options in their footprint: Winnipeg and southern Ontario. B.C., Alberta, Sask, and the Maritimes are all too far from their base. I am not really big on getting into southern Ontario. It would be a challenge to compete with the CSL for players and crowds. Unless we agree to Winnipeg, I don't see it as a viable option.

Three - no real upward movement. I don't see the NPSL as anything much more than big senior amateur circuit. At least the PDL has the reputation of being the home of NCAA scholarship players and there may be some mechanism to get bigger in the future (W-League to start with). Maybe a minor point, but keep in mind one of the most successful NPSL clubs was the San Jose Frogs, who moved into the PDL.

Jason

[hamiltonfan]

A master list should be made up. I’ll go ahead and give it a stab. We can use this to start and then start adding/taking away potential cities.

Our Football Team</u>

British Colombia

Victoria

Vancouver

Kelowna

Alberta

Calgary

Edmonton

Saskatchewan

Regina

Manitoba

Winnipeg

Ontario

Hamilton

Ottawa

Kingston

Guelph, K-W

Toronto

Sudbury

Quebec

Laval

Sherbrook

Quebec City

Montreal

The Maritimes

Halifax

St.Johns

I tries to stay away from cities with CSL or PDL teams now as there is no way a team would be allowed there. Here is my personal revised listed.

Our Football Team</u>

British Colombia

<s>Victoria

Vancouver</s>

Kelowna

Alberta

Calgary

Edmonton

<s>Saskatchewan

Regina</s>

Manitoba

Winnipeg

Ontario

Hamilton

Ottawa

Kingston

<s>Guelph, K-W </s>

<s>Toronto

Sudbury</s>

Quebec

Laval

Sherbrook

<s>Quebec City

Montreal</s>

<s>The Maritimes

Halifax

St.Johns</s>

[Footscray]

quote:Originally posted by Jason

Before any research of cities happen, we would need to agree on the criteria of what we'd be looking for (market size, venue, etc). Then we'd need to decide which cities qualify.

Jason

I think we establish a must have list of profiled cities and if there is a passionate individual who wants to make the case for any other market I think that only serves to build our knowledge base and make our final decision stronger regardless of size. It also keeps the whole process very inclusive which is the spirit of the enterprise.

Maybe we cap at __ (10?) cities to prevent it from getting unwieldy.

If we can establish a list of 5 'must have' cities by vote and augment it with 5 more candidate cities put forward by passionate local parties I don't think any city within reason will be left out.

I have started a dedicated forum for the discussion of the club at:

http://oursoccerclub.proboards85.com/

Please let me know if anyone feels I am out of line in taking this step. I have set up a poll to gauge interest on potential cities. The 30 largest metropolitan areas in Canada are included regardless of current franchise location.

*edit - sorry hamiltonfan, didn't catch your list before posting - i am going to copy and paste it into the city poll thread over there*