Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I made the following point in the CSF thread: quote: I'm too young to remember '86 in detail, could someone older than I remind us how the CSA invested its windfall then and how it capitalized on the increased exposure. My suspicion is that most of the windfall went into youth soccer, and that some of the resulting boom in youth registration can be attributed to the exposure/money that came from '86. I've decided to start a separate thread to ask the question so that it would not be lost in the CSF talk. Can anyone old enough to remember that time in detail refresh our memory on what exactly the CSA did to grow the sport in the time immediately after the World Cup. How was 1986 used to the sport's benefit? If we do qualify in 2010, then there will be a financial and exposure windfall from doing so. We need to be prepared to know how to best utilize that. By looking back on the 1986-1987 period, we can learn what worked in the past and gain a better understanding of what might work in the days immediately following a World Cup appearance. As I originally said, I suspect that the CSA put a lot of the '86 windfall into youth soccer. If that was the case, it probably was the right choice at the time. Clearly, a different plan would be needed this time as recreational youth soccer is about the only think remotely functional in the game today. So...who has a long memory? Also, chip in with ideas on how we could benefit from 2010, even if you're too young to remember '86. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted February 15, 2008 Author Share Posted February 15, 2008 And could a mod fix the spelling error in my headline! Capitalize... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SthMelbRed Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I was only eleven back in '86 so I didn't pay attention to the CSA or what it did with the money it received. However, if we qualify for WC 2010, whatever financial windfall results should be put aside to fund preparation for the SMNT for GC '11, GC '13, and WCQ for 2014. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I don't know how the CSA di handle things after 1986 but here's the list of games we played between our last 1886 WC games and the qualifications for 1990 (that gives you an idea of the preparation the team had): 119. 25-Ago-1986 Singapore, Sing 1-0 Singapore 120. 24-Ago-1986 Singapore, Sing 5-0 Malaysia 121. 27-Ago-1986 Singapore, Sing 0-0 North Korea 122. 30-Ago-1986 Singapore, Sing 4-0 Indonesia 123. 31-Ago-1986 Singapore, Sing 0-1 China 124. 4-Sep-1986 Singapore, Sing 0-2 North Korea 125. 6-Sep-1986 Singapore, Sing 1-0 Singapore 126. 18-Abr-1987 Hamilton, Brm 1-0 Bermuda 127. 24-Abr-1987 Hamilton, Ont 1-0 Bermuda 128. 30-Sep-1987 San Salvador, ES 1-2 El Salvador 129. 2-Oct-1987 Tegucigalpa, Hon 1-1 Honduras 130. 6-Oct-1987 Toluca, Mex 0-4 Mexico 131. 18-Feb-1988 Hamilton, Brm 0-0 Bermuda 132. 30-Mar-1988 Armenia, Col 0-3 Colombia 133. 5-Abr-1988 Kingston, Jam 0-4 Jamaica 134. 7-Abr-1988 Montego Bay, Jam 0-0 Jamaica 135. 12-Abr-1988 Victoria, BC 1-0 Mexico 136. 14-Abr-1988 Vancouver, BC 1-1 Mexico 137. 19-May-1988 Montreal, Que 0-1 Greece 138. 21-May-1988 Toronto, Ont 0-3 Greece 139. 25-May-1988 Toronto, Ont 1-0 Chile 140. 28-May-1988 Toronto, Ont 0-0+ Greece 141. 2-Jun-1988 Guayaquil, Ecu 1-2 Ecuador 142. 17-Jun-1988 Montreal, Que 0-1 Costa Rica 143. 15-Jul-1988 Vancouver, BC 1-2 Poland 144. 2-Oct-1988 Port of Spain, T-T 2-1 Trinidad/Tobago 145. 9-Oct-1988 Guatemala City, Gua 0-1 Guatemala World Cup Q 146. 15-Oct-1988 Vancouver, BC 3-2 Guatemala World Cup Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Ault Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 The development of the original CSL in large part was due to the 86 World Cup run. Ah the infamous Singapore games... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I began Coaching soccer in 1984 in communities where there was just beginning to gain some attention for the sport. At the time, it is safe to say that the CSA was not involved at the local level. The growth of the sport in the communities where I was involved was not driven by anything that the CSA did. There was very little attention to the national scene. The disconnect between the local level and what was happening at the national team level was much greater than today. After 1986, there still was not a lot of media attention. At the club level, local community clubs continued to modestly manage their affairs while at the same time growing their registration base. The growth was gradual. At least, that was the case in the communities where I was living at the time. The biggest boost in youth registration actually occurred with the USA World Cup in 1994 and the lead up to that tournament. Again, that was the case in the communities where I was involved. The bottomline, in my opinion, is that the CSA did not have a lot to do with the local level growth. That was especially the case in the late 1980s and early 1990s. The only place where the CSA did get some profile, albeit not too much, was in the material for the National Coaching Certification Program program; but, only local coaches motivated to get the training would have been exposed to that. For those of us who were involved back then, it is a little inaccurate for the CSA to claim credit for the growth of the sport in Canada. It was a truly grassroots endeavour. Everything above the local club level was seen as overhead with some being necessary. My experience has always been that all administrators at the local level wanted to grow the sport and wanted to see Canada successful at the national team level. The problem has always been that decisions were being made at the CSA level with very little input from those who really grew the sport with their volunteer dedication. Also, the notion that local clubs spend huge amounts of money on frivolous things like higher priced uniforms is a more recent one. In the 1980s most of the uniforms at the local level were simple cotton-blend T-shirts and in some cases came with socks. That gradually changed to simple shorts and socks, and synthetic uniform shirts. Having sat through many local club board meetings in the early 1990s, I can reports that every year's budget battle weighed the trade-off between keeping the sport affordable and offering more to players. Finding available playing fields was always a challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearcatSA Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 quote:Originally posted by loyola I don't know how the CSA di handle things after 1986 but here's the list of games we played between our last 1886 WC games and the qualifications for 1990 (that gives you an idea of the preparation the team had): 119. 25-Ago-1986 Singapore, Sing 1-0 Singapore 120. 24-Ago-1986 Singapore, Sing 5-0 Malaysia 121. 27-Ago-1986 Singapore, Sing 0-0 North Korea 122. 30-Ago-1986 Singapore, Sing 4-0 Indonesia 123. 31-Ago-1986 Singapore, Sing 0-1 China 124. 4-Sep-1986 Singapore, Sing 0-2 North Korea 125. 6-Sep-1986 Singapore, Sing 1-0 Singapore 126. 18-Abr-1987 Hamilton, Brm 1-0 Bermuda 127. 24-Abr-1987 Hamilton, Ont 1-0 Bermuda 128. 30-Sep-1987 San Salvador, ES 1-2 El Salvador 129. 2-Oct-1987 Tegucigalpa, Hon 1-1 Honduras 130. 6-Oct-1987 Toluca, Mex 0-4 Mexico 131. 18-Feb-1988 Hamilton, Brm 0-0 Bermuda 132. 30-Mar-1988 Armenia, Col 0-3 Colombia 133. 5-Abr-1988 Kingston, Jam 0-4 Jamaica 134. 7-Abr-1988 Montego Bay, Jam 0-0 Jamaica 135. 12-Abr-1988 Victoria, BC 1-0 Mexico 136. 14-Abr-1988 Vancouver, BC 1-1 Mexico 137. 19-May-1988 Montreal, Que 0-1 Greece 138. 21-May-1988 Toronto, Ont 0-3 Greece 139. 25-May-1988 Toronto, Ont 1-0 Chile 140. 28-May-1988 Toronto, Ont 0-0+ Greece 141. 2-Jun-1988 Guayaquil, Ecu 1-2 Ecuador 142. 17-Jun-1988 Montreal, Que 0-1 Costa Rica 143. 15-Jul-1988 Vancouver, BC 1-2 Poland 144. 2-Oct-1988 Port of Spain, T-T 2-1 Trinidad/Tobago 145. 9-Oct-1988 Guatemala City, Gua 0-1 Guatemala World Cup Q 146. 15-Oct-1988 Vancouver, BC 3-2 Guatemala World Cup Q Ah, yes ... the Singapore tourney featuring Hector Marinaro, Dave Norman, and Igor Vrablic. I guess you could say that they, in their own unique way, tried to "capitalize" as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearcatSA Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje I began Coaching soccer in 1984 in communities where there was just beginning to gain some attention for the sport. At the time, it is safe to say that the CSA was not involved at the local level. The growth of the sport in the communities where I was involved was not driven by anything that the CSA did. There was very little attention to the national scene. The disconnect between the local level and what was happening at the national team level was much greater than today. After 1986, there still was not a lot of media attention. At the club level, local community clubs continued to modestly manage their affairs while at the same time growing their registration base. The growth was gradual. At least, that was the case in the communities where I was living at the time. The biggest boost in youth registration actually occurred with the USA World Cup in 1994 and the lead up to that tournament. Again, that was the case in the communities where I was involved. The bottomline, in my opinion, is that the CSA did not have a lot to do with the local level growth. That was especially the case in the late 1980s and early 1990s. The only place where the CSA did get some profile, albeit not too much, was in the material for the National Coaching Certification Program program; but, only local coaches motivated to get the training would have been exposed to that. For those of us who were involved back then, it is a little inaccurate for the CSA to claim credit for the growth of the sport in Canada. It was a truly grassroots endeavour. Everything above the local club level was seen as overhead with some being necessary. My experience has always been that all administrators at the local level wanted to grow the sport and wanted to see Canada successful at the national team level. The problem has always been that decisions were being made at the CSA level with very little input from those who really grew the sport with their volunteer dedication. Also, the notion that local clubs spend huge amounts of money on frivolous things like higher priced uniforms is a more recent one. In the 1980s most of the uniforms at the local level were simple cotton-blend T-shirts and in some cases came with socks. That gradually changed to simple shorts and socks, and synthetic uniform shirts. Having sat through many local club board meetings in the early 1990s, I can reports that every year's budget battle weighed the trade-off between keeping the sport affordable and offering more to players. Finding available playing fields was always a challenge. That's my experience from coaching in the early 80s, as well, Oranje. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 quote:Originally posted by BearcatSA Which bring us to the question: Which group is the worst JDG2, OH, Thunder and Vittoria or Marinaro, Norman and Vrablic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyr Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy As I originally said, I suspect that the CSA put a lot of the '86 windfall into youth soccer. If that was the case, it probably was the right choice at the time. Clearly, a different plan would be needed this time as recreational youth soccer is about the only think remotely functional in the game today. I think the CSA probably got about $1 million give or take... but that is nothing but a rough guess. I can't find anything on the web yet that gives the prize money for 86. I did come up with the tournament earning a revenue of $100 million - about $2 million per match - and a profit of $30 million. But that may have no relationship to the prize money on offer. In 2006 the winner got about $21 million and a team that did not get out of it's group got about a third of that at $5.9 million. But again who knows what the ratio between first and last was 20 years ago. I'll keep searching... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest speedmonk42 Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 The 86ers came out of it. Tony Waiters took his bonus money and put it into starting that team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyr Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 From a technical point of view the report on Canada at this tournament was quite favourable. We were certainly portrayed as being a team with a lack of skilled play but having created a foundation which could be built on. http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/techdevp/fwc%5fmexico%5f1986%5fen%5fpart3%5f280.pdf Unfortunately, there is no mention of how the prize money was allocated in this document. Financially, I'm not sure if this is the point where we lost the plot (more so than other National Associations, most of whom have traditionally been very bad managing accounts) or whether it was much later. We also hosted several first class internationals in the run up to USA 94 (Brazil, Holland and Spain) that MUST have been profitable. Did we get any prize money for our good showing in the Gold Cups in 2000, 2002 and 2007? How about for the Confederations Cup in 2001? Many have said that ours is only one of a handful of Associations that charge a levy on youth soccer registrations as a source of funding. The way most other Associations pay for their NT programs is through the gate receipts and TV money from home internationals as well as corporate sponsorship and prize money from tournaments. It would be very interesting to see the reports from all MNT home internationals since 1986 to see specifically what profits or losses were incurred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted February 16, 2008 Author Share Posted February 16, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Martyr From a technical point of view the report on Canada at this Many have said that ours is only one of a handful of Associations that charge a levy on youth soccer registrations as a source of funding. The way most other Associations pay for their NT programs is through the gate receipts and TV money from home internationals as well as corporate sponsorship and prize money from tournaments. It would be very interesting to see the reports from all MNT home internationals since 1986 to see specifically what profits or losses were incurred. I was told by a CSA member that we were one of four countries in the world that charges levees... I've also heard the one million figure before...although never officially. Edited to add: $1 million in '86 = $1,839,416.06 today using the Consumer Price Index. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyr Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 I haven't yet found how much Canada might have received for being in the Confederations Cup in 2001 but the Kiwis scored a $US1 million in 2003... http://soccernet.espn.go.com/archive/global/news/2002/0715/20020715australia.html In 1999 each team in the Confederation Cup got at least $US750,000... http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/1999/437/sp1.htm In a google search I was able to see that the prize money all teams at the first stage in 2001 was 1.4 million Australian dollars (The link was to a PPV article). Which, I think would have been worth pretty close to the Canadian dollar at the time (???). The money on offer from CONCACAF is pretty meagre. We received $US60,000 for our recent semi-final appearance. The winner only gets $US150,000 which is up from $US100,000 in 2005... http://www.concacaf.com/view_article.asp?id=3679 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted February 16, 2008 Author Share Posted February 16, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Martyr In 1999 each team in the Confederation Cup got at least $US750,000... http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/1999/437/sp1.htm Splitting the difference,it would be reasonable to think that Canada got about $900k for the Confederation Cup. So, I guess the question is...what did the CSA do with that money? Maybe someone should ask them that question... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 I don't think the CSA capitalized on anything big during or after the 86 WC as I don't remember anything being any different. There was more media coverage at the time, which was kind of expected. There were a few more printed soccer magazines and trinkets. There were also more coaching clinics being offered by CSA staff I do remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Boy Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Martyr Many have said that ours is only one of a handful of Associations that charge a levy on youth soccer registrations as a source of funding. The way most other Associations pay for their NT programs is through the gate receipts and TV money from home internationals as well as corporate sponsorship and prize money from tournaments. It would be very interesting to see the reports from all MNT home internationals since 1986 to see specifically what profits or losses were incurred. Maybe this is the answer to the CSA's problems. Maybe they need to create a department solely to have 8-10 profitable home games against top competition. I'm sure with the assistance of sponsors and a capable marketing exec the CSA should be able to earn some money for NT programs. If the Whitecaps can make some extra scratch playing the Galaxy, why can't the CSA get Portugal or Italy to play at BMO? An average ticket price of $50 will generate $1 million and maybe half of that would go to the CSA if not more. How many games did the US play at home against top competition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted February 17, 2008 Author Share Posted February 17, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Danny Boy [ why can't the CSA get Portugal or Italy to play at BMO? An average ticket price of $50 will generate $1 million and maybe half of that would go to the CSA if not more. How many games did the US play at home against top competition? I see where you are coming from , but I worry what kind of signal having 10,000 people cheering against Canada at BMO sends...Where I do think there is money to be made would be in having Italy play Portugal in Toronto...as long as we are dreaming...maybe such a match could be part of a double header with Canada playing the US in the other half. That would be a win-win. You would be guaranteed a sell out because of the European game and I can't see Vito from Woodbridge cheering for the US as he waits for his beloved Azzurri to take the pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyr Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy I see where you are coming from , but I worry what kind of signal having 10,000 people cheering against Canada at BMO sends...Where I do think there is money to be made would be in having Italy play Portugal in Toronto...as long as we are dreaming...maybe such a match could be part of a double header with Canada playing the US in the other half. That would be a win-win. You would be guaranteed a sell out because of the European game and I can't see Vito from Woodbridge cheering for the US as he waits for his beloved Azzurri to take the pitch. I agree that a mini-tournament like this would be fantastic. I just got my copy of Colin Jose's "Keeping Score" out and we've had three competitions like this before - The Sir Stanley Matthews Cup in 1988 (Canada, Greece and Chile); The Skydome Cup in January of 1995 (Canada, Portugal, Denmark) and the Canada Cup in May of 1995 (Canada, Northern Ireland and Chile). I don't think we should be afraid of the ex-pat factor though. It's much more important that the MNT generates enough revenue to at least pay for itself. Our large population of people with Italian heritage should give us an advantage over other countries in luring the Azzurri here for a home international. If we play the way we did at the 2007 Gold Cup I think we will earn the respect of those ex-pats and they will come out to support the Canadian team against other opponents. These people don't come to the games because they don't want to support Canada. They don't come because the football in the past has been so poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Boy Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Martyr I don't think we should be afraid of the ex-pat factor though. It's much more important that the MNT generates enough revenue to at least pay for itself. Our large population of people with Italian heritage should give us an advantage over other countries in luring the Azzurri here for a home international. If we play the way we did at the 2007 Gold Cup I think we will earn the respect of those ex-pats and they will come out to support the Canadian team against other opponents. These people don't come to the games because they don't want to support Canada. They don't come because the football in the past has been so poor. Bingo... The first games will be totally cheered on by the ex-pats and there will be generally a smaller portion of Canadian fans. But by the same token if we play a quality game there's no reason why the Canadian fan base shouldn't grow. If we can stand up to the best why shouldn't Canadian sports fans take notice. Eventually the big Euro teams won't be so hesitant to come over here. I'm not so sure about the mini-tourney format. But if it's to get the ball rolling and get the interest, why not. Just build from there and make it an annual series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SthMelbRed Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 I'm with Danny Boy. Why not host an anual 'Canada Cup' every year in late-May/early-June. We'd probably have to start with some lesser teams due to our current low-profile. Maybe we could try to get Italy and a smaller CONCACAF team. The main point is that the CSA hasn't showed any inclination/ambition/competence to make such a thing happen. If we could establish a tournament like this, we'd be killing several birds with one stone. 1. Home games to engage the local supporter base and get into the face of the national media. 2. Revenue generated to help fund the SMNT program. 3. Guaranteed annual training camp of our 'A' team coupled with two competitive friendlies. 4. Increased exposure of the game at higher levels that would work to entice sponsorship money out of corporate Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SthMelbRed Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Oh, and 5. If we went with the Canada+major-draw, big nation+medium-sized CONCACAF nation formula for such a tournament, it wouldn't do our standing within CONCACAF any harm, lessening the future impact of the Jack Warner/Benito Archundia effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metro Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Martyr I think the CSA probably got about $1 million give or take... but that is nothing but a rough guess. I can't find anything on the web yet that gives the prize money for 86. I did come up with the tournament earning a revenue of $100 million - about $2 million per match - and a profit of $30 million. But that may have no relationship to the prize money on offer. In 2006 the winner got about $21 million and a team that did not get out of it's group got about a third of that at $5.9 million. But again who knows what the ratio between first and last was 20 years ago. I'll keep searching... I remember reading the information regarding the 1986 revenue in The Simplest Game, by the American author, Paul Gardner. In fact he specifically mentions how much money Canada received, as they were the least successful nation in that World Cup. Problem is I can't remember how much that was. I think the amount was $3 million (or, $1 million per match) though I could be wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyr Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Metro I found someone with a copy of Gardner's book... Page 95 - Canada earned $US 966,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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