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Is the REVOLUTION ON? they call it CSF


Eric
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quote:Originally posted by Ed

You've played the young boy card before. It wasn't funny then and it ain't funny now.

I said something much more direct to you. For no reason other than to be a dick, and I apologized for it -sincerely. To the best of my recollection, we haven't had any problems since. Why start them now?

I'm not looking for laughs. I think a lot of these guys who are in the sack the CSA camp are full of crap. However, I was trying to learn more becasue I notice that Dino is putting in what appears to be a very sincere effort. There's been some back-and-forth with a few people, but a couple of them singled me out for not being in the loop with youth soccer. No kidding. Why would I be? I've never claimed to know a thing about it beyond my own experience 20 odd years ago.

This is the MNT forum. Any discussion of Dino's idea on youth soccer is a polite service to his group as it really doesn't belong here. Clearly the mods have left us to fend for ourselves so why not give me a little credit for being relatively gentle with that guy and stay out of it or, better yet, join in with the other Voyageurs who have been around awhile and ask these guys some questions so we can get an idea of their legitimacy?

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Maybe we should have a General Canadian Soccer forum... There is no better place to talk to soccer people across Canada than the Voyageurs website, and judging by the number of replies, people are interested in talking about broader Canadian soccer topics.

So if the MNT fans don't want these types of topics cluttering up this section, maybe we can put them somewhere where the so-called 'real' Voyageurs can just ignore them if they wish...

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Alright ynwa, I accept that.

Moving on, I've been around the Voyageurs a long time, and I have no problem with where this topic has headed. You can't sack the CSA unless you propose some kind of replacement, so the youth soccer bit belongs somewhere on this site but perhaps not in our CNMT subforum.

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quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

This is the MNT forum. Any discussion of Dino's idea on youth soccer is a polite service to his group as it really doesn't belong here. Clearly the mods have left us to fend for ourselves so why not give me a little credit for being relatively gentle with that guy and stay out of it or, better yet, join in with the other Voyageurs who have been around awhile and ask these guys some questions so we can get an idea of their legitimacy?

You make a good point. If MNT fans do not want to see this type of discussion in the MNT forum, then maybe the mods can create a forum called "Canadian Soccer - General" or something like that.

The V's board is a very valid place for this type of discussion but I do understand completely if people are feeling like the MNT is being hijacked somewhat.

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If there is no functioning and efficient youth soccer system, then where will the MNT (and WNT for that matter) get players? It is very short-sighted to view youth soccer as irrelevant. Of course, the governing bodies viewing youth soccer as ???????? might be one of the major things that got us into this mess.

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quote:Originally posted by VPjr

You make a good point. If MNT fans do not want to see this type of discussion in the MNT forum, then maybe the mods can create a forum called "Canadian Soccer - General" or something like that.

The V's board is a very valid place for this type of discussion but I do understand completely if people are feeling like the MNT is being hijacked somewhat.

To be clear, I don't feel the thread is hijcking the MNT board. But I do think some posters are too quick to expect MNT supporters to immediately identify and/or understand the youth soccer issues and their supposed relevance in the bigger picture.

I notice that you have been very patient in this thread to be polite to everyone and address everyone's questions which to me is showing leadership because I'm sure people (myself perhaps at the top of the list) have likely said stuff which pisses you off.

Maybe a different section is a good idea, maybe not. I would expect that you'd want all the V's to support you in a perfect world and this part of the board is the most followed.

I don't have a problem with this thread, obviously, or I wouldn't have posted so many times. I think it's interesting. My general observation though is that people who say this is easy and that is easy and all we need is an accountants report implemented to fix things are not being realistic (I'm an accountant, I can tell you we're not that smart. No super brains here.) I'd also like to see the MNT severed from youth soccer. I've looked at the CSA finacials and the MNT is being heavily subsidized which, IMHO, is really bad business given the marketing potential of our -dare I say- great professional players.

Finally, I would point out that just because you have questions or because you see additional complications to something others see as easy, doesn't mean you believe the CSA are doing a great job. The Linford affair, no matter which side you sit on, was disgusting and may cost us a chance to go to South Africa. Their is a clear lack of preparation for the Olympic and MNT for their respective qualifying tournies, clearly partly to do with the Nykamp settlement. Things suck really bad right now. But sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't and, to throw in another cliche before I get back to work, change for change sake is not going to mean enough IMO for me to really rally behind it. I want something tangible to believe in before I get excited.

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"You make a good point. If MNT fans do not want to see this type of discussion in the MNT forum, then maybe the mods can create a forum called "Canadian Soccer - General" or something like that."

You need several threads like CSF-MNT, CSF-Junior, CSF-Admin, etc. Keep each one on topic and flesh out what the plan is in each area. Trying to cram it all into one thread is hard to follow.

If the CSF wants to replace the CSA then they/we need to address all areas that the CSA now covers no matter how bad the CSA does it we need to stipulate exactly what the new plan would be.

Way too much for one thread. Maybe the whole discussion can be transferred to the CSF website.

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A giant database? So that it ends up with some company that starts pushing crapola every time you sit for dinner or open your e-mail box? No thanks.

If anyone is interested in databases, learn ORACLE, SAP, PHP, search facebook.

"National" or "Canadian" organization, federation, association, society, tribe, crowd, village, family, etc. is more than likely doomed to morph into another version of the current CSA. Why bother with grandiose plans of revolution? George Washinton and Ben Franklin couldn't persuade us to join the greatest revolution in the world, yet another organization of poor soccer well-wishers and know-it-alls will convince Canadians to effect a soccer revolution?

What needs to be done, and what is feasible without George Washinton, is to lobby for athletic scholarships. Results will follow almost immediately. And this is valid not only for soccer but for all sports.

It will elevate the game, which will generate community interest, which will encourage youngsters to stick with sports in order to obtain an education. It may or may not generate enough community interest for a serious investment.

To expect that there will be investment without a base of dedicated athletes -- not kids exercising to lose weight, or fit in, or please grandpa from the old country -- is naive. To expect that a new CSA will be able to magically create this base by keeping track of every fat kid that kicks a soccer ball is a little disingenuous.

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quote:Originally posted by VPjr

Wow....that's the biggest falsehood I've read on this thread so far....

Really, is it? I find a lot of CSF members/supporters/boosters to be diametrically opposed to the things that I want as a Canadian soccer fan. Here are some examples:

-Peter Mallet and Bob Iarusci, both openly stating in the media that Canadians shouldn't play for Canada. Both important members of the CSF.

-Then there are the posters who think not qualifying for South Africa will be a good thing? WTF? [xx(]

quote:Originally posted by Paddy

I think our not qualifying and the dismantling of the CSA (as a result of yet another failure) will do more to help out future generations of Canadian teams than qualification and another 20+ years of the CSA.

quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy

But, without significant change, I see 2010 as a mirage. We'd go, cry when we heard the national anthem played, maybe get a result against Columbia before losing to Argentina and Switzerland, then come home and prepare to wait another 20+ years to get back.

quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy

I understand where you are coming from. I guess my biggest worry is that we actually will qualify and the CSA will fail to benefit from the windfall comes from it.

I apologize if I'm not ready to get in bed with people who would hope for Canada's failure just to further their own agendas.

As I've said previously, I would like to see the national teams become totally self-sufficient to the point where they are no longer dependent on youth soccer. Creating a CSA-II is not the solution. Until the day registration fees are not being used to prop up the National Teams, it will be the same garbage with different leaders.

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putkaputka, I don't share your pessimism. Sorry.

Athletic scholarship are not a bad idea and I think the people that run the CFL and maybe even the NHL would like that to happen too but Canadian universities don't seem interested, for whatever reason. This is not something that the soccer community can control.

Outside of the United States, countries are able to develop players without university scholarships. They do it by nurturing a strong club structure. We think this is something that is sorely lacking in Canada. We have lots of clubs...We have lots of good clubs in fact. Unfortunately, clubs are not allowed to reach their full potential, held back by meddling bureaucrats. We sincerely believe that our clubs are more than capable of handling player development and need the support to do so.

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The idea of qualifying for the WC fixing all our problems runs along the same lines as:

“We can’t possibly f*** this one up!”

Oh how I dare to disagree with that, especially considering the past results of this association. For the USA which is probably the most applicable example of a similar situation to what we face, it took a lot more than a single WC qualification or two in order to gather people’s interest.

Is it a great thing for us to accomplish? yes. Will it be the magic cure? not likely.

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quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

-Peter Mallet and Bob Iarusci, both openly stating in the media that Canadians shouldn't play for Canada. Both important members of the CSF.

In regards to Peter Mallett, I've found his writings to be fair and mostly accurate, in the past, but if he stated players should play for other countries he gets the big "VETO".

Have listened to Bob Iarusci on several occasions and have found him decidedly underwhelming (and kind of an idiot) despite his pedigree. VETO number two.

Did Nigel Reed have the good sense to keep away from this? Conflict of interest and that kind of thing.

As for the rest of the birds leading this outfit, I've never heard of them but wish them luck. I won't condemn anyone who is at least trying to effect change and has actually got off their ass to do something.

In regards to the database, I recall the CFSA, or Skate Canada, I guess they're now called, had some success with a national database and skater registry.

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quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

Really, is it? I find a lot of CSF members/supporters/boosters to be diametrically opposed to the things that I want as a Canadian soccer fan. Here are some examples:

-Peter Mallet and Bob Iarusci, both openly stating in the media that Canadians shouldn't play for Canada. Both important members of the CSF.

-Then there are the posters who think not qualifying for South Africa will be a good thing? WTF?

I apologize if I'm not ready to get in bed with people who would hope for Canada's failure just to further their own agendas.

As I've said previously, I would like to see the national teams become totally self-sufficient to the point where they are no longer dependent on youth soccer. Creating a CSA-II is not the solution. Until the day registration fees are not being used to prop up the National Teams, it will be the same garbage with different leaders.

We can agree to disagree.

Let me say that, in my view, it is one thing for a person to publicly state that they support Jon's reasons for making his decision to play for Holland and another thing altogether to state that you want Canada to fail.

I am as disappointed as anyone over Jon's choice (even though I knew it was coming doesn't diminish the disappointment) but I don't live in a Black/White world either. People make their decisions for lots of reasons and maybe Peter and Bob have more insight than you do as to why Jon made this decision. No matter why Jon chose as he did, it was his choice to make. He's an adult and he'll have to live with the reprecussions of that decision, (good or bad). I wish he decided differently but I respect his right to make it.

I give you my personal assurance that ALL of the people involved in the CSF believe that the MNT, with or without JDG2, is likely good enough to qualify for South Africa with proper preperation. We'll all be cheering those boys on. It's up to you to believe if the sentiment is sincere.

The CSF shares your feelings that collecting fees from player registration to fully fund an FA is not a model with longterm viability but in the short term, the money to run the operations of an FA would have to come from somewhere. Keep in mind that the CSA has done nothing on the strategic level to develop suitable funding models so as to replace or reduce the reliance on registration fees. As a group, we have spoken on numerous occasions about how much less we believe the membership would be paying upstream if the CSF plan was in place. It's hard to quantify but long term, I think it is something we must strive to do in order to paint a clearer picture of how much money we believe can be saved.

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I agree I am pessimistic.

But... while it is that almost all countries develop players without the uni system, the Uni system is what works for North America.

I disagree the clubs are held back by bureaucrats. Does a bureaucrat stop a club from buying grounds and charging admission to its games? I don't think so. What bars the club from doing this is that people will not buy the tickets. Simple as that. So the investor will not recoup the investment.

I just don't understand how anything about this can be changed from the top by a soccer organization. If people do not invest in soccer in Canada, well the number 1 reason is that there is no money in soccer in Canada. Except in selling replica kits for Euro teams.

As a parent, I ask myself: why would a parent let her child put school work on the back burner for playing soccer at some community soccer club, when there is no career in soccer after that community club. And you know, a couple, hell even 10 MSL clubs in Canada will not change that.

The only solution I see is if that kid will have an opportunity to receive a free education at a university or college if the “MSL” or “Europe” dream does not work out – and we know with 100% certainty that the dream will not become reality for 99.999% of the kids playing.

People are rational beings. Do you think if the CSA told them -- "Trust us: send your kid to XYZ Intalian Stalions to play soccer every day and he will become a star!" -- they will do so?

But I think if the CSA could tell them – "Send you kid with XYZ and he will, at the least, receive a free education at U of T on a soccer scholarship!" they will do so.

Who would NOT want to do that? It’s like extended warranty – you can’t lose :)

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VPjr, you can vouch for Bob and Peter all you want, but their stance on Canadians playing for Canada is just too large a bridge for me to cross. Unless they recant publicly and state they were wrong, I will continue to devalue the CSF.

Now, if the CSF wanted to move forward without either as part of its organizations, I would respect that greatly.

But as long as the CSF is in bed with anti-Canadian soccer types, I think it is a waste of time.

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quote:Originally posted by Joe MacCarthy

In regards to Peter Mallett, I've found his writings to be fair and mostly accurate, in the past, but if he stated players should play for other countries he gets the big "VETO".

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080206.WBsoccerblog20080206212412/WBStory/WBsoccerblog

This is the offending blog article. He doesn't state that verbatim (although, but it's not hard to read between the lines. He also takes an un-necessary and pre-emptive shot at Canadian soccer supporters, calling us "so-called patriots". Because obviously if we are disappointed in the decision & the way it happened, it must be because we an un-patriotic, after all.

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quote:Originally posted by putkaputka

the Uni system is what works for North America.

I would say that the University system is working for the United States but Canada has found a way to develop huge numbers of hockey players without relying on the University system. They have done it by developing a very strong club system.

quote:Originally posted by putkaputka

I disagree the clubs are held back by bureaucrats. Does a bureaucrat stop a club from buying grounds and charging admission to its games? I don't think so. What bars the club from doing this is that people will not buy the tickets. Simple as that. So the investor will not recoup the investment.

I just don't understand how anything about this can be changed from the top by a soccer organization. If people do not invest in soccer in Canada, well the number 1 reason is that there is no money in soccer in Canada. Except in selling replica kits for Euro teams.

When a district bars a club from starting an academy program, that is an example of bureaucrats holding back the development of the club and by extension the development of its players.

When Clubs are buried under reams and reams of red tape just to be able to travel outside of a district to play a game, that is an example of bureaucrats holding back a club from focusing on what its supposed to be doing.

There are far too many examples to name. You're examples refer to the pro level or semi-pro level only. I'm telling you that clubs in Canada are capable of doing much more and being much more. I can't force you to believe us but we are quite confident about this and more and more clubs are starting to realize their potential. When you have some community clubs with $1 million + in the bank from current operations, you have BUSINESSES with real capital at their disposal. There's more than just one or two clubs like this, trust me. Some smaller clubs (less than 2000 members) boast bank accounts with in excess of 250K in the bank at any one time. There is so much potential at the grassroots to do better and they just need to be set free to do it.

To touch on another thing you mentioned, investment in soccer at the local level is not that big of a problem. Most well organized clubs have plenty of sponsorship. it's the CSA that has a hard time winning lucrative sponsorships. Maybe it's because large corporations who see the value of soccer would rather not deal with the CSA...just a thought.

quote:Originally posted by putkaputka

As a parent, I ask myself: why would a parent let her child put school work on the back burner for playing soccer at some community soccer club, when there is no career in soccer after that community club. And you know, a couple, hell even 10 MSL clubs in Canada will not change that.

Kids should be playing soccer first and foremost because they love the game. One of jobs of the clubs and their coaches is to instill that love of the sport. Not everyone plays a sport until their 18 or older because they want to be a professional athlete.

However, for those that do want to persue pro soccer, clubs have proven to be pretty good conduits for that career choice. The parents of players like DeRo, Julian DeGuzman, Jim Brennan, Atiba Hutchison, etc... had their kids enrolled at the community club level and then they moved on to higher levels in order to persue a pro career. Remember, soccer is the world's most global sport. There are pro leagues everywhere. If you are good enough, resourceful enough and willing to make the sarcrifices necessary, you can find a job as a pro player (it might not be a good paying job but its still a job). It's not easy by any means but it's possible. It would be much better if we had some sort of league of our own in Canada.

Also keep in mind that Community clubs and academies are already graduating lots of kids to the US colleges every year. I personally would rather see players stay home to and play college/university soccer in Canada but soccer does not seem to have the priority that I would like it to at all schools.

quote:Originally posted by putkaputka

The only solution I see is if that kid will have an opportunity to receive a free education at a university or college if the “MSL” or “Europe” dream does not work out – and we know with 100% certainty that the dream will not become reality for 99.999% of the kids playing.

Very few Canadians on scholarship to play soccer in the US are there on a free ride. I am told that the average men's college soccer program offers only 2-5 full scholarships, and rarely are they given to incoming freshmen. The coaches are usually given a budget for scholarships and they try to spread it around to as many players as possible. Soccer is not a money making sport at US schools the way Football or Basketball are. I don't imagine that the situation would be any different here in Canada if scholarships were provided by the schools.

I know that many major Junior Hockey players are supposedly given assurances by their team that if they choose to go to University or college while playing for that team that they team will pay for the education. I don't know how well that program works but it is a logical reward to keep players from opting for US Schools rather than the CHL. If there were a soccer equivalent to the CHL, I am sure that something like that would need to be considered, again in order to compete with US schools.

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