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Is the REVOLUTION ON? they call it CSF


Eric
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quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

What the hell does this have to do with anything?

I think Iarusci shouldn't be involved in Canadian Soccer's governance because he thinks Canadian players should not play for Canada. The thread you linked to is totally irrelevant and leads me to believe you are a ****ing idiot.

This has a lot to do with your criticism of Iarusci, as far as I know he hasn't been involved in an scandale of this magnitude against our MNT and yet some of the people involved in this dark pages of our MNT history still around and being respected by an blind group of fans like you who criticize for the sake of criticizing.

I agree you are a good soccer fan, do every body a favor and stay just being that, pay for the tickets to watch a game, waive your team's flag high and when you get home forget about soccer, because thanks to ignorants and idiots like you we are where we are with the state of soccer in our country.

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Gentlemen, there are 15 threads so far regarding the CSF which

has not clarified the position of the CSF for me.

In a nutshell, please indulge me by asking you to respond to my

question:

Is the CSF a lobby group for change within the CSA?

Or is it a group aiming to REPLACE the CSA and its structure?

A simple response of "LOBBY GROUP" or "REFORM GROUP", would

be sufficient, to all posters in this forum. Thank you.

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quote:Originally posted by VPjr

I will agree with Massive and freekick on 1 thing....the MNT forum is a fan forum. This debate has hijacked that somewhat. I personally welcome input, positive and negative, from the V's but I'm not sure it belongs in this particular forum. If the mods are able to create a new forum, cool....if not, I am prepared to cease and desist with this thread so that the forum can be refocused on talking about players and our teams.

I also agree with this. It's become apparent that the CSF movement is something that is designed to primarily reform impact & reform the administrative & grassroots side of the game. There's nothing wrong with that, it's a laudable goal and I wish people the best of luck with that, but I think it is obvious that if it helps the national teams it something that will only happen tangentially or from a trickle down (or should I say trickle up?) effect. My only concern is that the movement does not adversely affect the performance of the national teams but barring direct interference with national team funding, I am not overly worried that will happen. As such this whole discussion is really in the wrong forum altogether and it should be moved to a new sub-forum or put into general discussion.

To all the anonymous posters who keep asking Free Kick, Massive Attack & others what the "quick fix" is developing quality players for the national teams - wake the hell up! There isn't one and nobody suggested that there was, or that they were providing one. They are pointing out the fact that the plans as presented to us have very little to do directly with the national teams.

All over the world players get developed by professional clubs, that should be no different here. The long term solution to developing more players for the national teams to choose from is to have more USL & MLS clubs. It's something that the grassroots administration can't do much about, except state this as a goal to pursue & act as a cheerleader for possible investors (and I have seen very little, if any, discussion about that).

Which gets back to the point above - this has very little to do directly with the national teams, and that's what this forum is - it's not a political organization, this is a fan discussion board for people who follow and support the national teams, to discuss the national teams, the professional clubs, its players, discuss tactics, and organize supporters gatherings, etc. All laudable goals and activities in themselves.

Stop trying to turn this forum into something that it is not.

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quote:Originally posted by redhat

Gentlemen, there are 15 threads so far regarding the CSF which

has not clarified the position of the CSF for me.

In a nutshell, please indulge me by asking you to respond to my

question:

Is the CSF a lobby group for change within the CSA?

Or is it a group aiming to REPLACE the CSA and its structure?

A simple response of "LOBBY GROUP" or "REFORM GROUP", would

be sufficient, to all posters in this forum. Thank you.

I see and support them only as a lobby group, leading to reform from within, through the existing membership, more so at the grassroots where player, coach and club development starts.

Change from the bottom up!

If they initiate the withholding of funds, it's the provincial portion only, which happens to be the biggest slice of the 3 levy pie.

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quote:Originally posted by Eric[/i

I agree you are a good soccer fan, do every body a favor and stay just being that, pay for the tickets to watch a game, waive your team's flag high and when you get home forget about soccer, because thanks to ignorants and idiots like you we are where we are with the state of soccer in our country.

And this is another good reason why this thread is in the wrong place, if we get people exhibiting the attitude above, which suggests that supporting Canada and Canadian players is the cause of all the problems with Canadian soccer. And here I was thinking it was the lack of support which has plagued Canadian soccer in the past, but no, apparently it's the fault of people that actually get out & support their country and their teams that is the cause of all the problems. Well you learn something new every day.

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MODs

Please consider

We've hit page 16, currently sitting at 377 replies and 8,478 views, clearly there is interest in the CSF vs CSA issue and its not going to go away. And there are many other related and relative issues cluttering other topics, impeding the focus of those only interested in the MNT.

Is it possible, or will you consider the creation of a dedicated topic titled: Administration & Governance </u> within this Canadian Soccer Forum to separate this specific issue from the MNT thread.

Thank you in advance.

J.G.

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quote:Originally posted by redhat

Gentlemen, there are 15 threads so far regarding the CSF which

has not clarified the position of the CSF for me.

In a nutshell, please indulge me by asking you to respond to my

question:

Is the CSF a lobby group for change within the CSA?

Or is it a group aiming to REPLACE the CSA and its structure?

A simple response of "LOBBY GROUP" or "REFORM GROUP", would

be sufficient, to all posters in this forum. Thank you.

We are a lobby group / pressure group. We are lobbying the members of the Canadian soccer community to get behind a reform movement. If the membership supports it, they will then decide what direction the movement takes.

You can't easily "replace" the CSA. CSF wants a national soccer governing body. We just want it to be governed and operated in a drastically different way.

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quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

And this is another good reason why this thread is in the wrong place, if we get people exhibiting the attitude above, which suggests that supporting Canada and Canadian players is the cause of all the problems with Canadian soccer. And here I was thinking it was the lack of support which has plagued Canadian soccer in the past, but no, apparently it's the fault of people that actually get out & support their country and their teams that is the cause of all the problems. Well you learn something new every day.

We had a five page discussion to establish that you can make money off a database and it does not have to violate anyone’s personal privacy through nuances like telemarketing or unsolicited mail. Any rudimentary amount of research would have cleared that up. Given this is the internet and everyone has to feel like an expert, but give me a break.

This is not about bashing anyone about being a “supporter”. In fact I’m pretty sure most people would put themselves in that category, regardless of which side of this debate their on.

But if people feel obligated to step out of their realm to strike out at things they know nothing about and critize others work, they should expect some venom.

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quote:Originally posted by squid2

If they initiate the withholding of funds, it's the provincial portion only, which happens to be the biggest slice of the 3 levy pie.

Sorry ... but one of the CSF leaders was quoted as saying:

"What we need to do is to get to the grass roots and allow them to help us cut off the funding to our masters at the top - namely the districts, the provinces and the CSA"

And looking at a sample GTA District, their fees are:

Mini-soccer: District - $5.20, OSA - $2.30, CSA - $7.00

Youth recreational: District - $7.18, OSA - $3.32, CSA - $7.00

The provincial portion hardly looks like the biggest slice to me!

(NOTE: OSA fees for competitive players are considerably higher but mini-soccer and youth recreational account for 74% of all OSA registrations)

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quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

And this is another good reason why this thread is in the wrong place, if we get people exhibiting the attitude above, which suggests that supporting Canada and Canadian players is the cause of all the problems with Canadian soccer. And here I was thinking it was the lack of support which has plagued Canadian soccer in the past, but no, apparently it's the fault of people that actually get out & support their country and their teams that is the cause of all the problems. Well you learn something new every day.

I am sorry if I offended you "Mr Thread Organizer" but that was not my intention at all, I was just responding to a previous insult by a "soccer fan" who does (like many others around Canada) more harm than good to the sport. No body in their right mind will suggests that supporting Canada and Canadian players is the cause of all the problems with Canadian soccer. You obviously chose to manipulate my statement to prove a very lame point.

I'm glad that you're learning something new every day, but don't forget to learn that you also need positive attitude and intelligence to change things. There's a huge percentage of these so called "soccer fans" that all they do is criticize without ever helping to solve the game's problems we face today.

Hooligans where "soccer fans" too in England not so long ago, of course they used violence to show their "appreciation" for the sport and where are they now?.

In Canada we have "fans" that don't use violence but use fan boards to express their "appreciation" for soccer.

Believe me, the sport doesn't need those fans.

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quote:Originally posted by ag futbol

This is not about bashing anyone about being a “supporter”.

Well you could have fooled me - the paragraph I quoted seems to be suggesting that (otherwise, what is the bloody point being made???), and there have been a number of similar posts by other posters that suggest quite strongly that they believe there is something inherently wrong or insufficient with "merely" being a supporter. I for one have had enough of seeing these kinds of posts in this forum.

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quote:Originally posted by ag futbol

This is not about bashing anyone about being a “supporter”.

Well you could have fooled me - the paragraph I quoted seems to be suggesting that (otherwise, what is the bloody point being made???), and there have been a number of similar posts by other posters that suggest quite strongly that they believe there is something inherently wrong or insufficient with "merely" being a supporter. I for one have had enough of seeing these kinds of posts in this forum.

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Guest Jeffery S.

CSF: my first post on this thread. It is not a lobby nor an alternative. It is an excuse to yap. Write the minister and contact the press. But more importantly, I would have preferred a clear list of when each provincial election is, who is running, what they represent, and how they dead-beats who boycotted the previous president and manipulate the CSA to preserve their status quo privileges could be challenged. Legally and at the polls.

But for that to happen, for change to happen at the CSA, you have to have provincial presidents mandated by the grassroots to shake the whole damn thing up.

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quote:Originally posted by Eric

I am sorry if I offended you "Mr Thread Organizer" but that was not my intention at all, I was just responding to a previous insult by a "soccer fan" who does (like many others around Canada) more harm than good to the sport.

I rest my case.

By the way, before you go play the high & mighty on being insulted by Massive Attack, it should be pointed out that you were the one who initially decided to launch an un-provoked attack on him. He responded in kind. You are relatively new to this board & for some reason you decided to speak out of your ass and make a comment about another poster with the assumption that none of us knew who he was. Well you were dead wrong with that.

quote:

I'm glad that you're learning something new every day, but don't forget to learn that you also need positive attitude and intelligence to change things.

Do you really? Well strike me pink, I've never been known for my positive attitude around here, and what's this strange thing you call "intelligence"? I wonder what that is? I also don't know the word "condescening" means either. And I've also heard "gullible" isn't in the dictionary.

quote:

There's a huge percentage of these so called "soccer fans" that all they do is criticize without ever helping to solve the game's problems we face today.

Hooligans where "soccer fans" too in England not so long ago, of course they used violence to show their "appreciation" for the sport and where are they now?.

In Canada we have "fans" that don't use violence but use fan boards to express their "appreciation" for soccer.

Believe me, the sport doesn't need those fans.

Ah, so now we're comparing the supporters on this board to hooligans. Well done.

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quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

I rest my case.

By the way, before you go play the high & mighty on being insulted by Massive Attack, it should be pointed out that you were the one who initially decided to launch an un-provoked attack on him. He responded in kind. You are relatively new to this board & for some reason you decided to speak out of your ass and make a comment about another poster with the assumption that none of us knew who he was. Well you were dead wrong with that.

Do you really? Well strike me pink, I've never been known for my positive attitude around here, and what's this strange thing you call "intelligence"? I wonder what that is? I also don't know the word "condescening" means either. And I've also heard "gullible" isn't in the dictionary.

Ah, so now we're comparing the supporters on this board to hooligans. Well done.

Hey Gian Luca, do you work for the CSA? :D

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quote:Originally posted by Bill Spiers

Sorry ... but one of the CSF leaders was quoted as saying:

"What we need to do is to get to the grass roots and allow them to help us cut off the funding to our masters at the top - namely the districts, the provinces and the CSA"

And looking at a sample GTA District, their fees are:

Mini-soccer: District - $5.20, OSA - $2.30, CSA - $7.00

Youth recreational: District - $7.18, OSA - $3.32, CSA - $7.00

The provincial portion hardly looks like the biggest slice to me!

(NOTE: OSA fees for competitive players are considerably higher but mini-soccer and youth recreational account for 74% of all OSA registrations)

If someone in our group mentioned cutting off of funds to the CSA, that was done in error. At our last meeting, we actually discussed if there was a way to direct $8.00 for each player registration directly to the CSA without having to go through the province. Cutting off funds to the CSA, even if we disagree with how they run their operation, would do irreperable harm to the national teams.

Just so we can get the WHOLE story, here is the fee breakdown for Toronto District:

registration fee for a Youth Competitive player</u>

TSA charges: $37.50

CSA receives: $7

OSA receives: $21.46 (wow)

TSA retains: $9.04 (wow)

registration fee for a Senior Competitive player</u>

TSA charges:$49

CSA receives : $7

OSA receives : $27.85 (wow)

TSA retains: $14.15 (wow)

registration fee for a Youth recreational player</u>

TSA charges (11-18) $18

CSA receives : $7

OSA receives : $3.32

TSA retains: $7.68

registration fee for a Senior Recreational player</u>

TSA charges $23

CSA receives: $7

OSA receives: $9.20 (wow)

TSA retains: $6.80

registration fee for a Mini (U10 and below) player</u>

TSA charges $15.50

CSA receives: $7

OSA receives: $2.30

TSA retains: $6.20

Based on Bill's figure that 74% of registrations fall into the youth and mini age groups, that means approx. 285,000 players in Ontario fall into that category. That means that the province and district are receiving in and around $3 million per year. What exactly does the district and province deliver back to clubs in terms of services for their house league programs to warrant $3 million?

I can't find a demographics report on the OSA website so I don't know exactly how many Youth Competitive and Senior Competitive players there are in the province but, based on what I have been told, I estimate that the province and districts are collecting about $3.5million in total from clubs for their competitive players.

In total, I estimate that the OSA and districts collect close to $7 million in total in registration levies from the membership. The CSA gets $2.8million in total.

No matter how you slice it, that's a lot of money that is being collected. I wonder if the membership feels its getting good value for its money.

Oh...and BTW, league costs for rep teams is over and above the fees paid to the district and provinces.

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

CSF: But more importantly, I would have preferred a clear list of when each provincial election is, who is running, what they represent, and how they dead-beats who boycotted the previous president and manipulate the CSA to preserve their status quo privileges could be challenged. Legally and at the polls.

But for that to happen, for change to happen at the CSA, you have to have provincial presidents mandated by the grassroots to shake the whole damn thing up.

have you bugged our meeting room?

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I just spent a half hour reading a lot of personal insults. I thank those who tried to inform on the contents of the CSF meeting. I have more questions than answers but I fully support what I've read on your mandate concerning Canadian clubs. It's a shame we don't have a national league yet and I intend to support my local side when it's created. The MLS and the American pyramid of soccer has showed us up but may have sparked what I see as a wake up call to the Canadian soccer community. Thanks again and I'll keep reading.

As for the comments on Bob I. from the fan, I've been listening to the soccer show and I'm in agreement with his stance of not condemning a Canadian for being more ambitous than his nation. I won't support a former Canadian player in any sport but I think Bob was trying to show that there was a decision to be made since some players are talented enough to have a choice. I certainly don't agree with Bob most times but his somewhat exagerated opinion was to inspire immediate opinion for the long term improvement on a national program that suffers, not from simply mismanagement, but national apathy.

Canada for 2010

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Fort York Redcoat....thanks for your comments. If you have questions, please feel free to email anytime.

Smeghead, Where do you live? We might not be doing another meeting in Ontario for a while but we do plan to organize meetings outside of Ontario over the next 2 months so if you live outside of Ontario, you might be able to attend a meeting.

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quote:Originally posted by VPjr

At our last meeting, we actually discussed if there was a way to direct $8.00 for each player registration directly to the CSA without having to go through the province.

Do you seriously think that for one more dollar going to the CSA, they can assume all the services provided currently by the districts and the OSA?

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

I can't find a demographics report on the OSA website so I don't know exactly how many Youth Competitive and Senior Competitive players there are in the province

Go to the OSA web site and go to:

Publications>>Annual Report>>7.0 Registration Summaries

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

In total, I estimate that the OSA and districts collect close to $7 million in total in registration levies from the membership. The CSA gets $2.8million in total.

And if you go to:

Publications>>Annual Report>>2.0 Officers' Reports

you'll find the OSA Financial Statements.

In 2007, the OSA collected about $2.5 million in player fees for provincial programmes and about $2.2 million in CSA fees. The CSA will be collecting more in 2008 with the $1 player fee increase.

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quote:Originally posted by VPjr

Based on Bill's figure that 74% of registrations fall into the youth and mini age groups, that means approx. 285,000 players in Ontario fall into that category. That means that the province and district are receiving in and around $3 million per year. What exactly does the district and province deliver back to clubs in terms of services for their house league programs to warrant $3 million?

I'm surprised you would have a go at the districts like this. Just so you know a significant portion of that money you mention goes towards an insurance policy for participants without which clubs would find it difficult to operate from a legal liability standpoint. It also pays for the district office admin staff who process player registration and discipline matters and often although not always are also involved in local league administration. Without the network of district offices across the province of Ontario the whole system would break down because that is who most soccer people actually deal with through the course of the season.

The real waste of resources isn't at the district level but at the provincial association and CSA levels where there is significantly less scope for scrutiny by people who administrate clubs at the grassroots. The way to get change to happen is for people at the grassroots level to finally say enough is enough and stop kicking money upwards until there are sensible reforms and a system is put in place where there is genuine democracy and accountability. The easiest way to do that is to organize the local rec and house league sort of stuff, which account for most of the registrations fees, completely outside of the CSA umbrella.

If the people involved with CSF were serious about a "revolution" then as Nigel Reed pointed out on the Soccer Show they would have a well thought out strategy for going after the CSA where it really hurts them most, which is their key funding source. Entrenched bureaucracies that are filled with self serving apparatchiks who operate based on an old boys sort of network do not reform the way they operate just because you ask them nicely and appeal to their better nature. As things stand I think the answer to the thread title is, "No, and why do they even use the word Canadian in the first place if they are only going to have meetings in the GTA at 7pm on a weeknight?". :)

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quote:Originally posted by squid2

Is it possible, or will you consider the creation of a dedicated topic titled: Administration & Governance </u> within this Canadian Soccer Forum to separate this specific issue from the MNT thread.

I agree that there needs to be an adjustment to allow for discussions of issues that pertain to the general state of the game in Canada on the Voyageurs Forum. Clearly these issues are important to many members but they shouldn't be posted in the "Men's National Teams & Players" area. It can be called "Administration and Governance" as Squid2 suggests or even just "State of the Game".

Perhaps the structure of the forum should look more like:

All Forums

Canadian Soccer

  • National Teams
    Men's National Teams & Players
    Women's National Teams & Players
    Administration and Governance
    Toronto FC & MLS
    Montreal Impact, Vancouver Whitecaps & USL D1
    Other Men's Leagues and Clubs
    Le soccer Canadien en francais!

</u>

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

CSF: my first post on this thread. It is not a lobby nor an alternative. It is an excuse to yap. Write the minister and contact the press. But more importantly, I would have preferred a clear list of when each provincial election is, who is running, what they represent, and how they dead-beats who boycotted the previous president and manipulate the CSA to preserve their status quo privileges could be challenged. Legally and at the polls.

But for that to happen, for change to happen at the CSA, you have to have provincial presidents mandated by the grassroots to shake the whole damn thing up.

http://www.canadasoccer.com/documents/constitution.pdf

Section 1 Bylaws: Sub-section 13: Tenure and Election

There was a revamp of the BOD election process in 2006

CSA AGMs tend to be in May. The one coming up in 2008 is on May 3rd.

Board of Directors (All positions elected for 2 year terms except President which is a 4 year term)

EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE (elected 2006 / up for re-election 2008)

President (now “Chairman of the Board”) – Vacant (Colin Linford elected 2006 so election taking place in 2008 to complete term ending 2010)

Vice President (Acting Chairman of the Board): Dominic Maestracci

Director (at large): Rob Newman

EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE (re-elected 2007/ up for re-election 2009)

Vice-President: Victor Montagliani

Director (Finance): Vince Ursini

Director (at large): Angus Barrett

Director (Technical): Mike Traficante

DIRECTORS

Director: Professional: Nick Fillippone (up for

Provincial Association Presidents (Elected by Provincial Association membership)

British Columbia: Steven Reed (election 2008)

Alberta: Fred Kern (election 2009)

Ontario: John Knox (election 2009)

New Brunswick: Bob Laver (election 2008)

Manitoba: Sean Drain (election 2008)

Nova Scotia: Ken MacLean (election 2009)

Saskatchewan: Jeannette Kuc (election 200?)

Yukon: Brian Gillen (election 200?)

Newfoundland: Doug Redmond (election 2009)

Prince Edward Island: Gerald MacDonald (election 2008)

Québec: Dino Madonis (election 200?)

Northwest Territories: Ryan Fequet (election 200?)

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