Moosehead Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 people that keep that organization going and not Jono. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lomonty Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Is there anyway to overthrow the CSA? Seriously can we stage a coup, maybe this has been discussed before but can we differ funds away from them or will thay just hurt our kids. Anyone have any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Moosehead people that keep that organization going and not Jono. The real traitors are those who are only heard from when complaining ( legitamate or non legitamate) about the CSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Lomonty Is there anyway to overthrow the CSA? Seriously can we stage a coup, maybe this has been discussed before but can we differ funds away from them or will thay just hurt our kids. Anyone have any ideas? Overthrow the CSA? Ask yourself this given that WCQ will start in merely 6-8 months. Are you more interested seeing success in WCQ or in sabotaging the WCQ effort by throwing the national associtaion in more turmoil than it is. Difer funds? Great. lets hurt the team so that they will fail so that we can have more to complain about. Also ask yourself this? After you have overthown or dissolved the CSA, then what? who will fill the vaccuum? and how do you anything will be different? Here is novel idea. If your not interested in supporting the national teams, then stay away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joga bonito Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 quote: Also ask yourself this? After you have overthown or dissolved the CSA, then what? who will fill the vaccuum? and how do you anything will be different? Oh I think the vaccuum would be filled all right. It's already begun! And maybe that's what the CSA wants after all. When you see Steve Nash move in with his money, the 3 pro clubs and the likes starting to do something...it is a sign that some wheels are already in motion to change the lanscape of responsibilities.... The new drivers by-pass the bureaucratic fiefdoms to achieve their goal. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number6 Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I don't think patronizing other people is the right thing to do either, that kind of mentality should be the kind that stays away. Many people want to sack the CSA,I personally think we should get rid of them now and I am confident something more useful could be put in place. I personally prefer the Australian model. The players will perform regardless and I doubt if the CSA is gone they would give it much thought. JDG supports us, JDV openly as well. There are enough players who support taking the CSA down. When the snow clears, we need to stage a protest outside of the CSA headquarters. We need to garner more public access to the news outlets and pressure politicians to start taking a look. Internal CSA change will not and never will change. We need to go above their heads. With an election coming I suggest talking to your MP, handing them the Crawford report and educate them on the CSA missteps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lomonty Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 quote:Overthrow the CSA? Ask yourself this given that WCQ will start in merely 6-8 months. Are you more interested seeing success in WCQ or in sabotaging the WCQ effort by throwing the national associtaion in more turmoil than it is. Difer funds? Great. lets hurt the team so that they will fail so that we can have more to complain about. Also ask yourself this? After you have overthown or dissolved the CSA, then what? who will fill the vaccuum? and how do you anything will be different? Here is novel idea. If your not interested in supporting the national teams, then stay away Okay so decades more of pissing and moaning on various message boards about how inept the CSA is, watching young adults spend their formative years away for home assimilatng into different cultures around the world is the status quo then. Until the CSA is shaken from head to greatin toe none of this **** will change. And when ex and current Nats are speakin up on this **** you know there's room for change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redhat Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Again, I don't like the CSA. But Jonathan de Guzman has his own agenda, and is doing what he wants regardless of the CSA or whatever anyone thinks. Jonathan feels Dutch because it meets his agenda of maximizing his footballing opportunities. I've come to realize that if he could make the same money and have just as bright a future in the U.S.A., Japan, U.K., or Qatar, he might have done so or thought seriously about it. Traitor or not, it wouldn't matter. (Unless Holland has mandatory conscription, I guess.) Let us please move forward and concentrate on the players who want to play for our country and will take us to the World Cup despite the obstacles applied by the CSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 The CSA has a myriad of problems and needs to be massively overhauled. However, the majority of CSA members including the leadership have shown a great deal of dedication to Canadian soccer. They may be incompetent and completely ineffective but to call them traitors is ludicrous and libelous. The ones who have turned their back on and betrayed Canadian soccer are players like JDG2 and Hargreaves. There is a big difference between an incompetent and poor soldier or general and a turncoat. I would always take the poor soldier over the traitorous one. I am all for massive changes to how the CSA is run and would like to see the entire current board of directors resign. However, if the plan is to get rid of everyone in the CSA without distinction, discard the good things the CSA has done as well as the bad and to replace them with people who think a player is justified in turning his back on his country because of a poor governing organization then you can count me out of your revolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beaver Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 only an observation, but when it comes to these matters, the newbies tend to be more irrational and knee-jerk prone than the seasoned Vees. Not surprising, as greater understanding and greater information breeds greater wisdom. Glad to have new posters here, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finchster Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Jono didn't want to play for Canada because he thought playing for the Dutch would get him the opportunity to make more money. Jono sold out his country for money make him a huge traitor. You can defend him from the stand point of making money, but when it comes down to it he wanted to make more cash and he thought playing for Canada wouldn’t do it so he went Dutch, that’s a traitor. Second part about the CSA, it sucks but I am tired of hearing that we need to tear it apart and fix it. The real issue with the CSA is not just a soccer problem in Canada it is a WHOLE sports problem in Canada. Outside of Hockey Canada there aren’t a lot of examples of well run sports organizations mainly because they are under funded. When you are under funded you get the worst people to work for you because you can’t pay a lot. I can’t remember where I read this but the MNT manager of this country gets paid something between $80,000-$100,000 a year. You can’t get a good manager for that money, that’s pathetic. Can you imagine how low everyone else gets paid from the CSA? I would say that Canada Basketball (CB) is even worse than the CSA but there isn’t a lot being said about it. During the Olympics in Sidney, CB couldn’t afford to give the players some spending money. Steve Nash gave Canada basketball some money to give to all the players just as long as the players didn’t find out it came from him. CB was just lucky enough to have Steve Nash a quality individual, one of the best players of this generation who would represent Canada even though CB is one of the worst. The CSA is probably miles ahead of CB, but Jono just used the CSA being terrible as an excuse. Jono could have been soccer’s Steve Nash in this country, but he has no pride in this country. Realistically the only way the CSA is going to get better is with more funding, even restructuring the CSA won’t help that much because the problem of money still exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
royalcity Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 quote:Originally posted by finchster Jono didn't want to play for Canada because he thought playing for the Dutch would get him the opportunity to make more money. Jono sold out his country for money make him a huge traitor. You can defend him from the stand point of making money, but when it comes down to it he wanted to make more cash and he thought playing for Canada wouldn’t do it so he went Dutch, that’s a traitor. Second part about the CSA, it sucks but I am tired of hearing that we need to tear it apart and fix it. The real issue with the CSA is not just a soccer problem in Canada it is a WHOLE sports problem in Canada. Outside of Hockey Canada there aren’t a lot of examples of well run sports organizations mainly because they are under funded. When you are under funded you get the worst people to work for you because you can’t pay a lot. I can’t remember where I read this but the MNT manager of this country gets paid something between $80,000-$100,000 a year. You can’t get a good manager for that money, that’s pathetic. Can you imagine how low everyone else gets paid from the CSA? I would say that Canada Basketball (CB) is even worse than the CSA but there isn’t a lot being said about it. During the Olympics in Sidney, CB couldn’t afford to give the players some spending money. Steve Nash gave Canada basketball some money to give to all the players just as long as the players didn’t find out it came from him. CB was just lucky enough to have Steve Nash a quality individual, one of the best players of this generation who would represent Canada even though CB is one of the worst. The CSA is probably miles ahead of CB, but Jono just used the CSA being terrible as an excuse. Jono could have been soccer’s Steve Nash in this country, but he has no pride in this country. Realistically the only way the CSA is going to get better is with more funding, even restructuring the CSA won’t help that much because the problem of money still exists. You might want to look at Canadian Ski program run by Ken Read. Can't remember off hand what it's called, but another government funded sports program that's taken the bull by the horns and run with it. Judging by the winning results of the athletes I read about in the paper each day Ken Read is doing something right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 My feeling all along is that we should make a statement from the Voyageurs supporting the team and every player on it, and Dale with it, but at the same time come out with a non-recognition statement regarding the CSA. We don't recognize you, you are not legitimate. You pushed out the last president and boycotted his proposals and are just there to perpetuate your incompetence, and we don't want you as our representatives. There are plenty of teams that have qualified for a major tournament with their federation president or board under investigation, politically or legally. Spain did for the last World Cup, they qualify with a corrupt federation and rather psychotic president. And with a guy who is not likely the best coach they could have. This is where I stand with the CSA, which is one of the main reasons why I think that maybe we should take a harder stance on the Voyageurs Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soju Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 ^Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 quote:Originally posted by finchster Jono didn't want to play for Canada because he thought playing for the Dutch would get him the opportunity to make more money. Jono sold out his country for money make him a huge traitor. You can defend him from the stand point of making money, but when it comes down to it he wanted to make more cash and he thought playing for Canada wouldn’t do it so he went Dutch, that’s a traitor. Second part about the CSA, it sucks but I am tired of hearing that we need to tear it apart and fix it. The real issue with the CSA is not just a soccer problem in Canada it is a WHOLE sports problem in Canada. Outside of Hockey Canada there aren’t a lot of examples of well run sports organizations mainly because they are under funded. When you are under funded you get the worst people to work for you because you can’t pay a lot. I can’t remember where I read this but the MNT manager of this country gets paid something between $80,000-$100,000 a year. You can’t get a good manager for that money, that’s pathetic. Can you imagine how low everyone else gets paid from the CSA? I would say that Canada Basketball (CB) is even worse than the CSA but there isn’t a lot being said about it. During the Olympics in Sidney, CB couldn’t afford to give the players some spending money. Steve Nash gave Canada basketball some money to give to all the players just as long as the players didn’t find out it came from him. CB was just lucky enough to have Steve Nash a quality individual, one of the best players of this generation who would represent Canada even though CB is one of the worst. The CSA is probably miles ahead of CB, but Jono just used the CSA being terrible as an excuse. Jono could have been soccer’s Steve Nash in this country, but he has no pride in this country. Realistically the only way the CSA is going to get better is with more funding, even restructuring the CSA won’t help that much because the problem of money still exists. Thank you. Pretty much sums it up for me. Sure, if you can get the perfect guy or guys up there running things, it can make a difference. How much of a difference ? thats the big question. Basketball Canada is the perfect comparaison. Whats the difference bettween basket in canada and soccer in canada? 1- Steve Nash. 2- the fact that we share a border with the best basketball country in the world when it come to developing talent and also have easy acccess ( through geography, culture and language) to the NCAA scolarship progarms; the best development program in the world for Bssketball. 3- Steve Nash. Oh, did i mention that basketball canada also has Steve Nash. You know, the guy who is the worlds best player who has now retired from the national team and who was loyal to the oprevious coach who, for reasons that no one can understand, was sacked by basketball canada. hmmm, how about overthroughing them as well while we are at it. But your right, overall and on the whole, there is so much more at issue here than who is running the CSA, the events of this past summer ( the U20 WC and the Canada versus Costa Rica Freindly)proved it all beyond reasonable doubt to anyone who has their eyes open. We had, by far, the best prepared, best recruited and evaluated squad ever,and home pitch advantage. And look what the result was? From an organizational standpoint; the U20 preparation and sept friendly cousl not have been done better and look at what was the outcome. National asosciations like Soccer in Canada are non profit organizations run from the bottom up by volunteers, who have micro view of things, rather than professionals with . Its 98% the players and quality of players determine success, not the national associations. When you dont or didn't have a private sector with a vestsed interest in identifying and developing talent, then you cannot succeed. Also, nobody has yet answered my question though, if you were to blow it all up and start over, who would you put in place and why do you believe it would make an iota of difference. Also, in regards to that oft used example of the "Australian Model", can someone please tell me what it is? I dont think anyone knows what it is. therefore I will offer up my understanding of events in regards to what happened there: Several top ranking soccer officials got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. Namely, running up huge extravagant expense accounts for personal uses and supporting their lavish lifestyles. So they booted them out for PROVEN improprieties. But where are the proven differences in terms of results before and after? Yeah they qualified, but was that because of their soccer association? Or, was it because they have players like Viduka, Breciano, Emerton, Swartzer etc and we dont. THATS THE AUSTRALIAN MODEL FOLKS! produce good players, now how difficult is that to understand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 quote:Originally posted by royalcity I'll give you that one. Thats one example where a shakeup can make a difference. The same "could" happen with CSA with the right person in charge. Equally, there are other organziations that have continuously languished. SINce this is a canadian soccer supporters forum, You have to wonder when you read praise for players who choose to suit up for another national side. Or, wishing for less funds or $$$. these are factors that directly affect performance and outcome and can you can you call yourself a supporter or someone with an emotional attachment when you hold views to that extreme. I've never said that the game was well run or adminstered in Canada. I just find it annoying at some of the things thats get stated. I guess what I am saying is that the blame ( for lack of a better word) is well spead out in many areas not just the CSA. Over many years of reading stories and accounts in this forum, you can think of many examples that have little or nothing to with the national body. If you think it out well, you could write a pretty lenghty book on the topic. But to read some, you'd think that by replaceing X with Y at the the CSA, all would be well. That's narrow minded ignorant and naive. Especailly when I read that from people who have been perrousing here for years. Newbies, I can understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Intemperate, extreme language seldom achieves anything positive for one's cause in matters such as dissatisfaction with the CSA. Indeed it more often than not alienates the very people one is trying to persuade to join one's cause. Rational, constructive, substantiated argument courteously if forcefully put achieves far more, witness Mr. Valiant's open letter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. . There are plenty of teams that have qualified for a major tournament with their federation president or board under investigation, politically or legally. Spain did for the last World Cup, they qualify with a corrupt federation and rather psychotic president. And with a guy who is not likely the best coach they could have. Which further proves my point that there is no perfect correllation between conduct and competencies at the administrative level and results on the pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fort York Redcoat1555362293 Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Alright you veterans. Lets keep it simple for a Newb: Support the team. Buy tickets to games. Cheer for our lads. Buy a Sack the CSA shirt and spread the word. Players win. The CSA gets money for change and negative feedback for motivation. Well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag futbol Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 quote:Which further proves my point that there is no perfect correllation between conduct and competencies at the administrative level and results on the pitch. Reasons why I’d vehemently disagree with that: 1) The real point is not whether someone can be successful with a dysfunctional executive, it’s whether they are better off without the dysfunctional executive. I could probably abuse narcotics and still be successful at my job, but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be capable of more if I was clean. I really don't think there is any debate as to the value of leadership at the executive level and it's influence on the results of an organization. 2) The CSA has more direct influence over the game in Canada than other associations do elsewhere, simply because we lack an accompanying professional structure and a football culture. If they don’t step up, there not as many other parties to fill in the cracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 quote:Originally posted by ag futbol But that makes a huge difference! When you have lack an accompanying professional structure and football structure, that means that there is no margin for manouvre by the national association. It means that that they have to take on more than they have to are are supposed to. And most importantly, it means that, collectively, the game doesn't have the money that it would otherwise. Why is Spain better than Canada? is it becaue their national Association is run by administrative genius'es? NO, its because they produce better players; They produce better players because there are more develpment oppotunities for players and those opportunities are privately funded and with a vested interested to produce quality; and its because they produce better players that they win more often. and thats what it all about about isn't it? winning. There is no culture in canada and it has to do with a lot of factors ( too long to get into). Spain has a culture for the game and 30-50 private entities ( clubs ) with a vested interest to un earth and develop talent. In canada, until two years ago, there were zero and now we 2-3! thats it. Imagine that in city as wealthy as calgary ( thats where the person who started the thread is from) and with a population of over a Million people, there is no investor willing to step forward and put money into the game in the form of a club. there is no venue to play in, and when there was a pro club there, in was supported in numbers equivalent to family and freinds? is taht the CSA's fault? Similarly, is it the CSA's fault when, the besta player ever produced from that area is encouraged or applauded by some of his youth entourage ( i recall a certain quote from a youth coach) to paly for another national side? Again, is that the CSA's fault? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.T. Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 I can tell you what is the CSA's fault... A group "private entities with a vested interest to un earth and develop talent" (youth academies) applied for affiliation in 2006 (and again in 2007) - Latest response (direct from the mouth of Mr. Mastracci - application rejected and by-laws changed to prevent further applications) organization background: www.academysoccer.ca So saying the CSA has no choice to act this way because no one else is stepping up is misleading. The CSA has no interest in allowing anyone else to step up and move in on their 'turf'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NPE Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 "applied for affiliation in 2006 (and again in 2007)" Can you explain what this means? - applied for affiliation with CSA? Can they not acheive their goal (which incls making a profit) without being linked to CSA? Not clear why this necessarily a step backwards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Free kick But that makes a huge difference! When you have lack an accompanying professional structure and football structure, that means that there is no margin for manouvre by the national association. It means that that they have to take on more than they have to are are supposed to. And most importantly, it means that, collectively, the game doesn't have the money that it would otherwise. Why is Spain better than Canada? is it becaue their national Association is run by administrative genius'es? NO, its because they produce better players; They produce better players because there are more develpment oppotunities for players and those opportunities are privately funded and with a vested interested to produce quality; Precisely. When people talk about overhauling the CSA so that it is better run it is one thing, but overthrowing the organization is another thing altogether. It's difficult to support that idea without any real form form of assurance that the organization/people replacing the CSA could do a better job in the face of overwhelming problems, problems which will still exist no matter who or what is in charge. That's not to say that they can't do a better job at running & promoting the national teams, but the biggest thing we need is more pro clubs to develop players & increase the talent pool & level. I think about the best thing the CSA can do is what they did in Toronto - get pro soccer into the hands of people who can show other potential investors/owners that they can be successful with the sport in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.T. Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 quote:Originally posted by NPE "applied for affiliation in 2006 (and again in 2007)" Can you explain what this means? - applied for affiliation with CSA? Can they not acheive their goal (which incls making a profit) without being linked to CSA? Not clear why this necessarily a step backwards We applied for Associate member, as we meet their published requirements, but were denied... Not being affiliated with the CSA (and hence FIFA) will slow down efforts to attract the best players as well as to establish pipelines to senior professional clubs (both local and abroad). And it's not like we've given up - we are entering our 3rd year and are steadily improving in both areas mentioned above... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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