VPjr Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Link http://www.canadasoccer.com/documen...hics_report.pdf I will give them credit for getting this data published in a reasonable amount of time. I wasn't expecting this date for at least another month or two. The 2007 report shows a 1.53% increase from one year ago, or an additional 13,119 registered players in Canada. There are 501,359 registered male players (58%) and 366,510 registered female players (42%). Youth players (18 years or younger) make up 84% of the registered count what is most interesting to note about these demographic numbers is how large a percentage of registered players is made up by players at the U-10 level. One of the major problems in canadian soccer today is that we are losing large numbers of players at an early age. Many clubs are seeing huge attrition happening as early as the U12 level (in the past, the big dropoffs were occuring around the U14 level but kids, especially boys, are leaving the sport earlier now) Question to ask ourselves: is soccer really growing when the bulk of the registration numbers come from the ages of 8 and younger? I'm a house league coach (U7 and U4) and while I love doing it, it's really not much more than glorified babysitting with an exercise component. for our system to be truly "healthy", we cant be losing players at the key ages for skill development (u12 and up). The "smart people" who run the CSA and provincial associations dont care because they still collect registration fees from kids registered for U4 micro soccer but clubs are feeling the pinch, especially the ones who take player development very seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 quote:Originally posted by VPjr Link what is most interesting to note about these demographic numbers is how large a percentage of registered players is made up by players at the U-10 level. One of the major problems in canadian soccer today is that we are losing large numbers of players at an early age. Thats nothing new. Those stats ( older versions) have been up on the CSA webpage for years. Nothing has changed in reagrds to what you are alluding to and I have made refernce to this on many occasion. Worth re-emphasisizing, When you take into account the massive drop off of players after the age of 12 and the fact that (unlike a sport like Hockey, basketball, baseball or football) there is very high proportion of female players, you realize that our numbers are not very good at all. when you consider that the critical age for developing successfull players is the 13-16 age. Those numbers add fuel to the suggestion that youth soccer: 1) in canada is a babysitting service 2) lacks seriousness 3) doesnt attract the best athletes 4) doesn't produce quality players for a professional and int'l career. 5) Soccer is a regional and suburban sport. In some provinces the number of teen aged males players is laughable. which makes you wonder why some of these provinces even have seat at the CSA or even have a say. This is why having clubs play in a level of competetion like MLS or cONCACAF CL is critical. because the game needs to attract the counties best athletes who aspire to professional carreers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 ^ we are in complete agreement. Soccer is not "healthy" because we have hundreds of thousands of kids playing mini and micro soccer. those are just money makers for clubs, leagues and associations. if we are losing players, especially boys, at 12 then what we have is a very sick system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Free kick This is why having clubs play in a level of competetion is critical. because the game needs to attract the counties best athletes who aspire to professional carreers could you expand on that comment? I'm not clear on what exactly you are talking about when you say clubs need to play "in a level of competition". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massive Attack Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 But isn't it the same for all amateur sports in Canada? Don't they all suffer from membership drop offs as kids get older? This isn't a soccer-specific problem. I recall hockey people having the same complaints a few years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 quote:Originally posted by VPjr could you expand on that comment? I'm not clear on what exactly you are talking about when you say clubs need to play "in a level of competition". I am referring to the benefit of having top level pro clubs that kids can dream and aspire to. When you look at the numbers: Boys aged 12-17, the numbers reflect a massive drop off in participation. For girls, the numbers are actualy pretty good and our world standing reflects this. But because there was no local pro club to follow every week ( for the longest time) there exist a vacuum when it comes to soccer culture and the womens naive style of play reflects this. But, I dont think that I have stated anything new here. Again, your numbers just very much are a reflection of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack But isn't it the same for all amateur sports in Canada? Don't they all suffer from membership drop offs as kids get older? This isn't a soccer-specific problem. Perhaps. But I think that at one time I may have looked at that factor as well. And, I think that the drop off is more pronounced in soccer when it comes to boys. Though I may be wrong. I dont think that the drop off in girls is as pronounced Just to point out that as I am typing away in this thread, I have not read or digested the numbers that VPjr has posted. But i did for other years in the past and I recall that for teen aged boys, the numbers were startling low. If I am not mistaken, I dont think taht you could fill out all Ontario hockey league team rosters if hockey had those kind of numbers. And I am talking about the grand total here. In some provinces the number of boys in that category were in the low three digit category. I dont see how the cream is supposed to rise to the top under these circumstances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 From what I've been told by club officials at a couple of Mississauga area clubs, the attrition level for boys at the 12-16 age range is far higher in soccer than in hockey, despite the fact that hockey is a far more expensive sport. I agree with Freekick that the lack of pro teams to aspire to is definitely a factor that accounts for a percentage of the attrition we are seeing. However, I personally believe that this factor is more pronounced at the older age levels (i.e. U14 and especially u16). I don't think it explains why 10 and 11 year olds are leaving soccer so early. I think there are other factors driving kids out of soccer at such a critical development age. I don't have time to go into all of them but, to be very simplistic, one major problem is that adults are sucking the fun out of soccer at a young age. Ask yourself this: Why do we put kids into rep soccer at U8 and U10. what's the point of that. Even the CSA's wellness to world cup document clearly states that at those age levels, competition should not be over emphasized and rather we should be instilling a love for the game while training children in the fundamentals for the sport. Wins and losses are meaningless at the early age levels and yet adults seem to believe that chasing $10 plastic trophies is something to aspire to. Again...I'm being a bit overly simplistic but I think you get my drift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joga bonito Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 quote:Originally posted by VPjr could you expand on that comment? I'm not clear on what exactly you are talking about when you say clubs need to play "in a level of competition". I think that early drop outs take place when collectively we focus too early on "weeding out" players to survive the competitve leagues that start at age 9-10. Collectively and systematically, there is not enough willingness or resources to accept and invest in true long term development of players, and part of it is due to lack of support by the very parents that forever move from club to club, or by resources who sacrifice the teaching of the fundamentals (if they master them that is) to the need to market their name or club through winning on the field, and therefore prefer the safety of immediate league successes rather than the risk of long term investment in kids. We are , after all, in an era of instant gratification, aren't we? And I mean, parents and kids alike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 in regards to a couple points raised: 1- "one major problem is that adults are sucking the fun out of soccer at a young age. Ask yourself this: Why do we put kids into rep soccer at U8 and U10. what's the point of that. Even the CSA's wellness to world cup document clearly states that at those age levels, competition should not be over emphasized and rather we should be instilling a love for the game while training children in the fundamentals for the sport." and 2- collectively we focus too early on "weeding out" players to survive the competitve leagues that start at age 9-10. Collectively and systematically, there is not enough willingness or resources to accept and invest in true long term development of players, and part of it is due to lack of support by Let me preface this by stating that I am no authority on this subject nor do I have any first hand experience to relate to or infer from. I am going by what I have observed out there from digesting the numbers and from a bigger picture or broader context. And, a desire to play devils avocate:D. The counter argument to point number one, might be that the spirit of competition ( rather than actual passion for the game) might be why kids are taking up the game in the first place. No different than us adults. Playing in an organized competition all dressed us in our coluors has a great appeal to all of us, myself included. example, we got enough voyageurs / u sectorites to sign up to field six teams in our indoor league. Would we get the same numbers out for unformal kick about that includes a lecture on the finer points of the game? The best question might be: "is it soccer thats popular or is it the spirit of competeition" In regards to point number 2. If "weeding out too early" was a problem, then how do we explain, that in some provinces, the numbers at that age group are so rediculously low that you cant possibly have more than one level of play in that age group within the whole province. the point about lack of resources for LT dev would seem to make sence though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 ^ I'm by no means an experienced coach (I've coached house league for only 2 years) but I can assure you that I've not yet met a 6, 7 or 8 year old who signs up for soccer out of a desire to be a "winner" per se. They like their little trophies and medals but I don't think they care that it says "participant" rather than "champion". Furthermore, I don't know if you've ever had the pleasure of coaching little boys and girls but if you think that "lecturing" on the finer points of soccer is part of a typical practice, you would be wrong. Kids attention span is about 30 seconds so you better keep them busy and constantly moving to keep them interested. You teach while they are playing with the ball and their teammates. You can't stop and sit them down to "show" them how to control a pass or hammer a ball off the volley. You need to let them learn by doing, not by showing, which keeps it fun for the kids if practice and scrimmages are organized correctly. The kids like to come out to run, have some fun, maybe score a goal and PLAY for the sake of playing. its the adults who add the concept of winning (good) and losing (bad) into their tiny little heads. Of course, some kids are a bit more competitive than others and some kids are far and away more naturally talented than others but they don't come to the game to win for winning sake. Adults are a totally different beast. We should never compare the motivations of children and adults. When adults start to impose their will on children in the sporting spectrum, they tend to kill the fun that sport should be. I also agree with Joga bonita....there is way too much weeding out happening at an early age. let kids play house league until they are 12. Have an all star team as a treat for the most talented players and let them play a tournament against all star teams from other house leagues. but do we really need rep soccer at 10 years old....Nope. Who benefits? not the kids because you are introducing intense competition too early at the expense of just having fun and learning the game. The leagues do benefit as do the provincial associations do (because registration taxes are higher for rep players). We've got a sick, screwed up soccer culture in this country. A change (particularly of attitude) is needed urgently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyr Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 There has been a lot of study done about this here in the UK where there is a similar problem. What the FA is telling coaches is that the overwhelming reason children want to play football in the first place is simply to be with their friends. This is true no matter how skilled the players are. This not just true of children though. I've seen many cases of adult players in England playing Saturday 'competitive' (non-contract) football and then playing for a Sunday League side the next day. Quite often the non-contract competitive side will have excellent players that have given up on the time commitments and ultra-competitiveness of semi-pro (Ryman League or Conference South). Over the past 5 years 5 a-side football has exploded in England and Scotland. There are multi-pitch facilities all over the country catering to kids and adults that are just looking for a good 'kick about with their mates'. The age that the best players seem to really be ready for truly competitive select teams are 12 or 13 years old. But even at this age group Academies don't cast the net wide enough. They only pick something like 18 players per age group - which is ok for U18 but ridiculously small for U13. These clubs need to have at least 4 squads at the younger age and - if they operate programmes younger than this - they should be thinking about having many more players in the system. There are currently competitive professional club Academy teams in England for Under 9's - but this is proving to be a complete waste of time (my experience) for a professional club. I would challenge any Academy to show how many kids from their U9s have ever reached even their U16 team let alone professional football (League 2 and up). I guess my point is - keep soccer fun for everyone male, female, all age groups, cradle to grave... and give every player the best coaching possible when they are young, so that if they decide to really try and realize their dream of playing at an elite level, they at least will have the basic knowledge and skills to give them a good chance of making it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.T. Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 One thing to keep in mind is that providing a competitive atmosphere and playing to win are not necessarily the same thing. You can still have a competitive format while de-emphasizing the final result (i.e. no standings, playoffs or promotion/relegation). The kids can all get their uniforms, play a formal, organized game with referees and everything, yet not have to worry that they've let down their parents or coaches because when they missed the net on that last shot, it meant they failed to qualify for the Super-Elite Final Championship Round... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Ault Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 ^ LT well said - where does it say fun, development and competition have to exclusive of one another when it comes to coaching sport? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 quote:Originally posted by L.T. One thing to keep in mind is that providing a competitive atmosphere and playing to win are not necessarily the same thing. You can still have a competitive format while de-emphasizing the final result (i.e. no standings, playoffs or promotion/relegation). The kids can all get their uniforms, play a formal, organized game with referees and everything, yet not have to worry that they've let down their parents or coaches because when they missed the net on that last shot, it meant they failed to qualify for the Super-Elite Final Championship Round... You can't see me right now Lino but I am standing up and applauding you I couldn't have said it better myself (if I could have, i would have). The sooner clubs, coaches and parents absorb the basic truth of Lino's words, the sooner we take the first small step toward a better future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Having coached my son and teams he has been on in both soccer and basketball since he was in the U6 group (now in U10) I can say I have learned a lot. 1) They want to play with their friends, not a bunch of strangers. Once past the initial shyness they do make friends quickly with their new teammates but there is always the initial withdrawn stage. Keeping the same set of kids together for several years helps. Hard to do but it is a big draw to keep them in it. 2) I can honestly say I've never screamed at a player. Screamed instructions to them yes but that was just to be heard above the noise. I've seen too many kids yelled at for making a mistake. They feel bad enough already about letting their teammates down so don't yell at them. 3) Negative criticism by parents and some coaches. After a game NEVER go over the bad things that went wrong. Always remind them of a good play that they made. Even the worst team or player will make some good moves during a game. Save the critiques for the practice and let the coaches do it. 4) They will always want to try other sports. Let them. At one point my son preferred basketball to soccer but now he is back to soccer. Forcing them to play a sport for health and fitness is good but they have to be interested in it. 5) There are lots of draws on kids and parents time. Keeping as many games as possible local in the community keeps it convenient. Having to run all over the city it a pain. Try to organize car pools and other ways to help each other out. What can we do? Futsal. I think for U6, U8 and possibly even U10 there should just be a team of 10 kids playing futsal not soccer. It teaches the game better and the basics of control along with a softer, heavier ball works much better with the little kids. You can play it in a local gym instead of the usually long trip to the soccer center (rink) so the parents like it. In Calgary (where I am) it is mostly rink soccer with the boards. That is a very exciting and fast game that is a hoot to play and watch but I think the local authorities have it backwards. They let the little kids use the boards and then have no boards in play for the U12 and up. I would do it the other way around. We are almost done the indoor season so next fall I'm going to try and talk the club I'm in to doing a futsal group just in the local 4 or 5 communities with the possible odd trip to other communities that play futsal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 tmcmurph, great comments. Futsal is an excellent development game for the younger kids. During outdoor season, Micro Soccer is also very good (4v4 on mini fields) anything that gives the gives the opportunity for alot of touches is fantastic. I would argue that the people who run soccer in calgary have it right when it comes to not allowing the U12s and up utilize the boards. At that age, the need to work on ball control and precise passing so banging the ball off the wall is very counterproductive and does not advance skill development in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 "I would argue that the people who run soccer in calgary have it right when it comes to not allowing the U12s and up utilize the boards. At that age, the need to work on ball control and precise passing so banging the ball off the wall is very counterproductive and does not advance skill development in my mind." Here we will differ in opinion. If you want to develop reflexes, speed and conditioning using the boards is excellent. There is too much stopping without them. For little kids that is actually better because it slows things down for them. Another big plus is that the kids love play off the boards. We have a few that play indoor only and lots of the others prefer it to the outdoor game. If they haven't learned ball control by time they are in U12 we are in trouble. That is why I like no boards for the younger kids and allowing it for the older ones. By time they get to U12 they treat the boards like another teammate for passing off of. The main reason they are moving away from boards is due to safety concerns but I haven't seen anything convincing statistics wise. I've always wondered why they have boards at all? If you are going boardless then just have nets and foam to keep the balls from going into the other field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 ^ I know the kids love to slam the ball off the boards but I don't believe the "skills" developed by doing so translates all that well to the outdoor game. I've actually spoken to some experienced coaches about it and they prefer their players to play futsal or small sided soccer (with touch lines) at one of the various indoor soccer centers that we have in Ontario because what the kids work in there translates to outdoor soccer better. Regardless, if rink soccer is all you have access to, enjoy it and keep it fun for the kids as much as possible. Its just good to keep the kids playing soccer as much as they want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trillium Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 quote:Originally posted by VPjr Link http://www.canadasoccer.com/documen...hics_report.pdf I will give them credit for getting this data published in a reasonable amount of time. I wasn't expecting this date for at least another month or two. The 2007 report shows a 1.53% increase from one year ago, or an additional 13,119 registered players in Canada. There are 501,359 registered male players (58%) and 366,510 registered female players (42%). Youth players (18 years or younger) make up 84% of the registered count what is most interesting to note about these demographic numbers is how large a percentage of registered players is made up by players at the U-10 level. One of the major problems in canadian soccer today is that we are losing large numbers of players at an early age. Many clubs are seeing huge attrition happening as early as the U12 level (in the past, the big dropoffs were occuring around the U14 level but kids, especially boys, are leaving the sport earlier now) Question to ask ourselves: is soccer really growing when the bulk of the registration numbers come from the ages of 8 and younger? I'm a house league coach (U7 and U4) and while I love doing it, it's really not much more than glorified babysitting with an exercise component. for our system to be truly "healthy", we cant be losing players at the key ages for skill development (u12 and up). The "smart people" who run the CSA and provincial associations dont care because they still collect registration fees from kids registered for U4 micro soccer but clubs are feeling the pinch, especially the ones who take player development very seriously. To really understand the numbers presented the CSA should do a little work.. that is you match the numbers to Statistics Canada reports on age and sex for the provinces, it helps to point out which provinces are doing a good job of making sure all programs are affliated or not. Secondarily the stats once you look at Senior ...registrations hide many younger players who are playing Senior .. i.e. over eighteen soccer, many a seventeen year old is playing mens rec vs playing on a U17 team in small towns. The CSA in its numbers seems only interested in saying how HUGE they are not in identifying the gaps and correcting them. A proper statistical analysis would show which citys ..communitys etc are registering players in equivalent numbers to other areas. Lots of work to be done by the CSA staff, hope that the new COO will make some spreadsheets and do some crunching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyr Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Just as a follow up for those interested in the topics raised in this thread. An interesting read from Martin Samuels in the Times. The Debate: Can the FA be trusted with children's football? http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/2008/02/the-debate-can.html Martin Samuel replies to comments on whether the FA be trusted with children's football http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/2008/02/martin-samuel-r.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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