Jason De Vos on The Score

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

He took the most talented group of U20s we've ever had and destroyed the team before we even took the field in Argentina. Your standards maybe, not mine.

It's not like we're a world power. Expectations were pretty much qualifiying us to the WYC among most of the fans, after that we got the toughest group ever for one of our U-20 team.

Agree the Dunfield has a captain move might have been a mistake by PJ but it doesn't mean he doesn't have good tactical knowledge of the game (which is why a lot of us have praised him as a commentator, he's way better than Forrest).

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

Certainly expect some flack for this but Jason de Vos would not be in my top 20 players for us in WCQ. He served us well but his time is passed.

And, my God, I have heartburn after reading the Paul James coaching tributes.

What do you (and Loyola) base this assessment on? Is the background of this your promotion of McKenna? DeVos in his prime was probably the most solid defender we have had in a long time. We have not had a solid, steady defender who we could consistenly rely on for a good performance since he left the MNT. He is still not that old and we have no other central defenders playing in as good a league as DeVos is. He is having a good year unlike McKenna who has largely been a disappointment for Koln other than the month of December. Have you guys actually been watching him play recently to make this assessment? I don't know if he is still playing at the level he was four years ago but I think our coach should definitely find out. DeVos is certainly playing at a level at which he deserves a callup to show what he can do and we can not afford to leave such players out of the mix. Players should be selected based on how they perform when given a chance not on personal favourites like has happened so much in the past. Yes DeVos is direct competition for McKenna (as well as Hastings, Brennan, Hainault and possibly Klukowski) and that is precisely why he should be called to see if he is better than McKenna and if he is not better to give McKenna some competition/motivation and to be solid injury backup. I personally think Nsaliwa was never called by Yallop because Yallop didn't want competition for his buddy Watson. We all know how that turned out so let's not repeat the same mistake. As long as DeVos does not demand to be a starter he should be called. If he doesn't perform up to expectation then he should not be recalled just like any other player.

I do agree with Loyola about Paul James. As much as we should be ambitious in any tournament, any coach/team on the men's side that manages to qualify for a World Cup should be considered a success. Sure he made some mistakes but a few mistakes that someone has probably learned from should not shut them out forever from having another chance at the job especially when the first time was still pretty decent. Let's also not forget the background behind the Dunfield situation. At the time he was considered possibly our top prospect to be a high level professional player and was also considering committing to another country. If Dunfield had turned out to be the player that Hargreaves is and was playing in EPL we would be declaring the genius of PJ for capping him (or alternately if he had not been capped by PJ and ended up playing for another country we would have called PJ the biggest idiot in Canadian soccer).

[loyola]

Grizzly, I feel that bringing back DeVos could possibly damage the team spirit that seems to be high at the moment. Reports that he's unpopular among players makes me think it would be risky to have him.

I also believe that Mckenna, Hainault, Hastings can do the job. You could also add Nsaliwa if available or Kluka.

It's nothing against his talent, it's more about the possible problems this could cause.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

Grizzly, I feel that bringing back DeVos could possibly damage the team spirit that seems to be high at the moment. Reports that he's unpopular among players makes me think it would be risky to have him.

I also believe that Mckenna, Hainault, Hastings can do the job. You could also add Nsaliwa if available or Kluka.

It's nothing against his talent, it's more about the possible problems this could cause.

If Mitchell did not call him for that reason it would be a legitimate reason. On the other hand none of the reports of him being unpopular were based on reliable sources/information. There is also a big difference in your popularity when you are a regular player or a captain. It is quite possible DeVos was an unpopular captain as opposed to an unpopular player. This is really an issue that we are unable to judge and only someone very close to the team could. I am not sure Nsaliwa would be a defender for us since he has not played this position for a long time and may not be available at all. I think a DeVos in top form is a better central defender than what I have seen from any of the others in your list. I am always for putting the best players on the pitch unless there are serious reasons not to. If I were Mitchell I would call DeVos. If he is not playing well or causing problems within the team then he does not have to call him again.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

If Mitchell did not call him for that reason it would be a legitimate reason. On the other hand none of the reports of him being unpopular were based on reliable sources/information. There is also a big difference in your popularity when you are a regular player or a captain. It is quite possible DeVos was an unpopular captain as opposed to an unpopular player. This is really an issue that we are unable to judge and only someone very close to the team could. I am not sure Nsaliwa would be a defender for us since he has not played this position for a long time and may not be available at all. I think a DeVos in top form is a better central defender than what I have seen from any of the others in your list. I am always for putting the best players on the pitch unless there are serious reasons not to. If I were Mitchell I would call DeVos. If he is not playing well or causing problems within the team then he does not have to call him again.

PJ is a reliable source IMO.

I haven't seen DeVos in a long time so I wouldn't mind him getting a call. But if he doesn't I won't cry foul.

BTW, if we are to insert him in our roster we should do it quickly because CB pairing needs practices and playing time together.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I am always for putting the best players on the pitch unless there are serious reasons not to.

And as we've seen, opinions on this board as to who are the best players can sometimes really vary. Without considering De Vos, there were a number of people who previously argued that McKenna should be dropped for WCQ because his physical attributes made him vulnerable to fast, technical CONCACAF attackers, so we needed quicker, more nimble alternatives in our central defence in order to combat this threat. Based on that, I'm not sure either of these guys fits the bill.

Heck, with that in mind, if you we're willing to ignore their current club playing positions and instead base selection on previous limited MNT performances, then play Hutch and Klukowski in central defence: both guys seem to read the game well, are fast and maneuverable enough to withstand pacy, skilled strikers and are very comfortable on the ball, both in terms of control and especially distribution. But I doubt this scenario would occur.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

PJ is a reliable source IMO.

I haven't seen DeVos in a long time so I wouldn't mind him getting a call. But if he doesn't I won't cry foul.

BTW, if we are to insert him in our roster we should do it quickly because CB pairing needs practices and playing time together.

I had only watched the DeVos interview and had not heard Paul James comments but have now listened to them. I agree that he is a reliable source and this confirms what we have heard rumoured. On the other hand I think his other comments are equally correct:

-if PJ were Dale Mitchell he would call DeVos tomorrow and ask him to return to the team

-we do not have the talent to ignore someone of DeVos' ability and leadership skills

-one of the problems in Canadian soccer is a lack of professionalism from some of the players leading to such arguments and personality clashes

-DeVos is a true leader because he does what he thinks is right not what will make him popular

-he also criticizes the Voyageurs for thinking JDG should be captain because he is not a leader like DeVos is (here I am not in total agreement because I think there are different styles of leadership and one style will not necessarily work for every team nor do I think we could name DeVos captain until he clearly becomes a starter)

I think Mitchell should call DeVos and expect that his players will also show a degree of professionalism in regards to putting the best players on the pitch. Not everyone has to like each other to play well together as a team as long as everyone is professional. If DeVos upsets team chemistry when he is called or does not play to the level we expect than that would be a legitimate reason not to call him again. Ed's claim that he wouldn't fit into our top 20 is both biased and ridiculous. I think there is at least a 50% chance that he could be one of our starting CB's. He may not be faster than McKenna but I remember him being positionally and tactically far stronger and someone who really understood what was occuring on the field at all times though admittedly this was 4 years ago.

Regarding Bearcat's post, my opinion is that what Mitchell needs to do is invite everyone who has a decent chance at making the team without preconceptions and let them fight for a position. I can like DeVos and someone else can like McKenna but what we really need to do is call both and a few others that can play CB and let them have a fair competition to show who is playing the best at the moment. If McKenna outplays DeVos in some friendlies then I have no problem with him being chosen as starting CB.

Regarding Hutch as CB, I doubt that it would be in our advantage to move him from the midfield position unless we had JDG2 to replace him there. Also I think Hutch is given a bit too much credit for how he played CB because he looked like he had all the skills and speed to be a good CB. He made quite a number of mistakes as CB, some that led to goals, particularly with his positioning even though he could recover well because of his speed. Yes if he were playing CB at the club level he would probably be a clear choice for this position but since he isn't I think his lack of experience at CB would make him a risky choice and better used further up the field. Klukowski would be one of my top candidates as starting CB.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

Klukowski would be one of my top candidates as starting CB.

I have to make clear that the underlying motive of my previous post regarding a Hutch-Klukowski partnership was to reinforce my arguments of different peoples' perspectives of what players they consider to be "best" for a given position or an opponent's style of play, not because I endorse either of them for the CB jobs. I'm an advocate of maintaining players in positions on the MNT in which they regularly play at club level, as much as possible. Since his appearence as an emergency centre back vs N. Ireland, how many times has Klukowski played centre back for club and/or country?

[Grizzly]

I can't answer your question about Klukowski though I think he has mostly played at left back for Bruges. I would argue that switching from left back to centre back is a far less radical switch than from offensive midfielder to centre back. Several other centre back candidates are also either currently left backs or have been most of their career, ie. Hastings and Brennan. This is actually an unfortunate situation because of our current weakness at CB. Can you imagine the competition for left back we would have if we had an equal number and quality of players available at CB? It would be great to have a competition between Kluk, Brennan, Jazic and Hastings for the starting position and equally tough competition for every position.

I think it goes without saying that different people have different perspectives about who would be best for which position. What matters at the moment is Dale Mitchell's perspective and my opinion is that he should hold a fair competition for the positions with all players who have a decent shot at being on the team. This is something that his predecessor did not do and that destroyed what chance we had at qualifying for the World Cup. In my opinion DeVos is one of the players who should be given the opportunity to both make the team and compete for a starting position.

[BrennanFan]

De Vos is not going to come back to sit on the bench. He has better things to do with his time. The guy only has so many years of professional soccer left, why would he endure travel/ upset his club/ risk injury/ shorten his career to be 2nd choice and injury cover for us? He would only come back if he was going to be the man at CB in WCQ and in South Africa. Thats obviously not happening. By 2010 its likely that McKenna and Hainault will both be playing in the 1 Bundesliga or better, not to mention Edgar, Klukowski, etc. JDV is done and i think he knows that. He is best remembered as a great leader of past campaigns. I fear that his legacy would be completely tarnished by poor play if he was allowed back on the team due to his leadership skills/ nostalgia.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

Several other centre back candidates are also either currently left backs or have been most of their career, ie. Hastings and Brennan.

The big difference between these two and Klukowski is that in the past 12 months they have had substantially more first team club or MNT match experience in the position than Klukowski. Hastings' claim to the spot is that he was able to transform a shaky debut vs Venezuela into three weeks of practice with a consistent partner (Hainault) and five more games to hone his performance. Even though now he's consistently playing left back for ICT, he's still in the CB mix based on that recent run of performances. In another thread awhile ago, I posted that had Klukowski been playing in the same situation at the GC instead of Hastings, I wouldn't have a problem with him in contention for a CB spot, either. Last year, Brennan shifted between a number of spots at TFC (left flank defender in a 3 man back line, left mid, left back) but he seemed to be playing a lot of CB, gaining more experience along the way.

quote:I think it goes without saying that different people have different perspectives about who would be best for which position. What matters at the moment is Dale Mitchell's perspective and my opinion is that he should hold a fair competition for the positions with all players who have a decent shot at being on the team.

Totally agree. But though you appear to have more concerns about the CB positions, I have big issues with the RB spot: the incumbent has been stuck in the press box for most of the past couple of months and when he played in the last international was not particularly convincing in his performance. And should he go down to injury, who would be his replacement? Hope one of our left sided fullbacks can slot in? Convert one of our midfielders? Bring in a default utility man?

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan

De Vos is not going to come back to sit on the bench. He has better things to do with his time. The guy only has so many years of professional soccer left, why would he endure travel/ upset his club/ risk injury/ shorten his career to be 2nd choice and injury cover for us? He would only come back if he was going to be the man at CB in WCQ and in South Africa. Thats obviously not happening.

You don't know this, I don't know this and Dale Mitchell doesn't know this. All Mitchell has to do is to call DeVos ask him what his attitude would be to returning to the team. If DeVos says he would not come unless he is a starter then end of question and Mitchell has done his job properly. If Mitchell does not ask the question then he has not done his job properly.

quote:By 2010 its likely that McKenna and Hainault will both be playing in the 1 Bundesliga or better, not to mention Edgar, Klukowski, etc. JDV is done and i think he knows that. He is best remembered as a great leader of past campaigns. I fear that his legacy would be completely tarnished by poor play if he was allowed back on the team due to his leadership skills/ nostalgia.

Those are all best case scenarios and is also possible that none of those players will be playing in top leagues by 2010. It is also possible that in 2010 DeVos will be playing in the EPL or he might also be retired. How DeVos is playing in 2010 is not an issue here at all. The issue is how he is playing right now when we need to qualify for the World Cup. Whether he plays in 2010 is immaterial. At the present time he is the Canadian Centre Back playing at the highest level and is having a good season.

Bearcat, I am indeed concerned about right back as well though it is a completely different scenario. Stalteri if he is in form is an automatic selection but his lack of club playing time is hurting his form plus he is starting to have injury problems. After Stalteri we have very little depth and quality at this position and the hier apparent to Stalteri, Ledgerwood has also been injury-prone.

[sstackho]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I had only watched the DeVos interview and had not heard Paul James comments but have now listened to them.

Are Paul James's comments online somewhere?

[Guest Ed]

How is it that you remember de Vos being so superior to McKenna four years ago? McKenna didn't even play in qualifying until the last game (the only one we won). You say my opinion is both biased and ridiculous?

I don't want to slam de Vos too much as he was excellent for Canada in the past, but his prime days are behind him. To suggest that he is playing at the highest level of any Cdn center back is certainly displaying bias on your part. To each his own.

You might also keep in mind that I haven't stated anything about McKenna as first choice centre back, before you go off on a tirade. However, he has been playing in the Bundesliga 1 and now with a huge German club (Ipswich is at a higher level than Koeln? - that is your opinion not mine) with a very good shot a promotion back to Bundelisliga 1, to slag him endlessly as you do gets a bit tiresome.

[loyola]

With Hainault transfer to Sparta Prague I think we can say that him, Mckenna and DeVos are playing at similar levels. Kluka and Hastings are also playing in similar leagues but most of the time at left back.

The thing with DeVos is that I don't see him as being that superior to Mckenna or Hainault (yes, he has more experience but it's not like the other 2 don't have any) and I'm not sure it's worth the risk to include him in the squad. I personnally would not call him but I can understand if DM do so in the near future.

[Guest Ed]

Hainault hasn't played a game for Sparta Prague, so I wouldn't exactly say he is at the same level yet. He has a huge upside though.

The prospect of a Hutch / Klukowski tandem (suggesteb by BearcatUSA) has some appeal, as Atiba could come out of the back with the ball on his feet. It would also open a spot in our midfield to include Tam Nsaliwa or Daniel Imhof in the holding roles.

We need speed, control and composure in Concacaf.

A back line of Stalteri, Hutch, Klukowsi, de Jong? Subs McKenna, Hainault, Brennan.

Midfield of Rad/Bernier, de Guzman, Nsaliwa, Imhof, DeRosario with Friend/Gerba alone up front?

All positions are up for grabs, with players like Simpson, Ledgerwood, Peters (who still has so much potential despite my slagging his lack of time at Ipswich). In June, we might be looking at some new faces - who knows.

The key is to put a winning lineup on the field later this summer. Form, injuries, familiarity, etc. will all be huge factors.

This back line would be far superior to our WCQ lineups of 2004 (combinations of Stalteri, de Vos, Watson, Pizzolito, Jazic).

[Gordon]

I am a big believer in playing "skill" over physical attributes in against most of CONCACAF. The only exception I make is in the area of speed for certain positions. The backline is one of those as it can "cover" mistakes. As for Kluka, he was a Centre back while in France as a youth player, but when he went to Belgium became almost exclusively a Left back. I am not aware of any instances of even injury coverage. I have been advocating him as a centreback for a number of years and will continue to do, club experince or no. He is large enough, has better than average for a guy his size and has some skills to him. I don't think it is that big of a reach. I would be happiest if Kluka was given every game up to and including the St, V & G qulaifiers to play the position, and if our backline looked like:

De Jong LB

Klukowski CB

McKenna or Hainault CB

Nsaliwa or Stalteri RB

I'd be thrilled beyond recognition (I've put first choice first in the either or options). Speed, decent size and more skill and speed than I can ever recall us lining up. I like McKenna as a starter over Hainault due tro expereince and his scoring ability. I think he will drive all of our opponents nuts on set pieces into the box, and I think with DDR, JdG and Hutch in the midfield, I think we will be getting our fair share of set pieces into the box this go around.

[Toronto MB]

I don't think you can discount Brennan and Jazic just because they play in the MLS. Brennan socred twice (vs. Austria) in one of only two appearances for us last year, and had a what I thought was a very strong showing at BMO vs. Costa Rica.

Jazic had a very strong Gold Cup and did an excellent job starting the distribution down the left side. He also impressed when I saw him wtih LA.

I see lots of potential from Kluka, but I still feel more comfortable with Brennan and Jazic. Kluka just seems a little flimsy on the defensive end, and I'm not entirely convinced of him in this team yet. He didn't particularly impress versus RSA either. So based on recent performances with the squad, Jazic and Brennan trump him for me.

De Jong looks like an excellent left back, and very possibly our starter, I just need to see more of him at the senior level. He look like he has the ability to move up in midfield as well, which is veyr useful.

As for CB McKenna and DeVos are neck and neck for the big-man role. I am of the belief that DeVos deserves a look, and Estonia looks like a prime chance. Hainault looks like a great prospect as partner for those two, and I think he will continue to grow.

Hastings has shown he can do that job at CB, and I love his attitude, always a hard worker and a good mentor to Hume (it would seem - I alway catch glimpses of them embracing or sharing a laugh - and you could see Hastings giving Hume a good talk after the US game)

The final piece to the defensive puzzle would be Nsaliwa. Who at this point, I would slot in at centre-back. Unorthodox choice, I know, but I'm willing to bet he would be a perfect fit for Kev or JDV. Though I'm not expecting many of you to agree with me there.

[El Hombre]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

De Jong LB

Klukowski CB

McKenna or Hainault CB

Nsaliwa or Stalteri RB

Seconded. I think Klukowski is terribly underrated. I've always felt comfortable with him back there.

As for De Vos, I'd prefer Mitchell spend more time figuring out Nsaliwa's situation rather than coaxing De Vos back. He's primarily injury backup in my mind and down on that depth chart to boot.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

How DeVos is playing in 2010 is not an issue here at all. The issue is how he is playing right now when we need to qualify for the World Cup. Whether he plays in 2010 is immaterial.

You could substitute the word "De Vos" with "each CMNT player" and then I would agree even more because this WCQ is about "right now," not about past accomplishments/setbacks or future developments. In the aftermath of the last WCQ, how many here would have predicted that Onstad would be in our present WCQ picture? All the positions should be wide open, though realistically a challenger is going to have to be a clear improvement over an incumbent starter in order to win the job. Current form is really big on my agenda: Simpson's continued progress at K-town keeps him in the WCQ mix, for example. On the other hand, if I hear someone say that we need Menezes back in central defence based on performances of 7-8 years ago, then I'd be quite skeptical.

[Guest Ed]

The half season left may produce some more questions, good kind of questions, as we start to realize some depth:

1. Peters - needs playing time. Not the most savvy of our players to date, but he's only 20 and has tons to learn. If he starts to get more playing time, he could be in the mix.

2. Edgar - see above. Needs weekly games.

3. Nik Ledgerwood - scarcely mentioned in any formation threads, he looks to be ready for a busy 2nd half in Germany as 1860 try to get back in the promotion hunt. He was captain of our U20's 3 years ago and one of our best in Holland.

4. David Hoillet - could be the surprise player of next year. Scores regularly with the B2 team SC Paderborn when he plays (only friendlies). Can't play full pro until the late spring but could be a real gem.

5. Daniel Imhof - rarely mentioned but is arguably the Canuck starting at the highest level (aside from Julian).

6. Josh Simpson - after a slow 2006/2007 season where he only came on strong at the end of the season, was out of the lineup most of the 1st half but has been terrific for a young Kaiserslautern team. Has all the tools and the right attitude. Needs confidence.

7. Ryan Gyaki - where is he going to end up.

I'm not saying any of these players are starters, but all have (save Gyaki) potential to have an eye-opening 2nd half of the season leading up to our qualifiers.

[Toronto MB]

quote:1. Peters - needs playing time. Not the most savvy of our players to date, but he's only 20 and has tons to learn. If he starts to get more playing time, he could be in the mix.

2. Edgar - see above. Needs weekly games.

3. Nik Ledgerwood - scarcely mentioned in any formation threads, he looks to be ready for a busy 2nd half in Germany as 1860 try to get back in the promotion hunt. He was captain of our U20's 3 years ago and one of our best in Holland.

4. David Hoillet - could be the surprise player of next year. Scores regularly with the B2 team SC Paderborn when he plays (only friendlies). Can't play full pro until the late spring but could be a real gem.

5. Daniel Imhof - rarely mentioned but is arguably the Canuck starting at the highest level (aside from Julian).

6. Josh Simpson - after a slow 2006/2007 season where he only came on strong at the end of the season, was out of the lineup most of the 1st half but has been terrific for a young Kaiserslautern team. Has all the tools and the right attitude. Needs confidence.

7. Ryan Gyaki - where is he going to end up.

I'm not saying any of these players are starters, but all have (save Gyaki) potential to have an eye-opening 2nd half of the season leading up to our qualifiers.

In response to:

1. Peters: Great point, Peters is only 20, and hence for now he will get his looks in at the U23 Olympic Qualifiers, where I'm sure he may prove to be a useful contributor. But with JDG, Hutch, DeRo, Radz, Imhof, Bernier, Nsaliwas, DeJong, etc... he will not get another sniff this time round for WCQ. Nor should he.

2. Edgar: Same as Peters. Offers some good depth, but at this point McKenna, DeVos, Hainault and Hastings all offer more proven goods at CB. Look for him at the U23's and maybe as an emergency back-up at CB.

3. Ledgerwood: Good prospect, haven't followd him much since the U-20. If still eligible should be at U-23's and if does well, deserves a look in a friendly.

4. Imhoff: AGREED. Does he start regularly for Bochum? Regardless he does get enough minutes, and is right there good cover for JDG as a holding mid. And I bet you his time in the Bundesliga is rubbing off well on him. Would like to see him in the squad vs Estonia.

5. Hoillet: Don't know enough about him. But if he can't crack Paderborn's squad right now, I'm not calling for him in the team. But will pay more attention.

6. Simpson: Loads of seemingly unharboured talent. Sucked against RSA and has fallen behind our top-class mids. I don't expect to see much of him.

7. Gyaki: Seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle. We'll have to see what transpires.

For me the more pressing issues are:

1. Nsaliwa

2. Jono DeGuzman

3. DeVos

Now, those three, all have a starting roles to fight for and would be automatic subs if willing.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

As for Kluka, he was a Centre back while in France as a youth player, but when he went to Belgium became almost exclusively a Left back. I am not aware of any instances of even injury coverage. I have been advocating him as a centreback for a number of years and will continue to do, club experince or no. He is large enough, has better than average for a guy his size and has some skills to him. I don't think it is that big of a reach. I would be happiest if Kluka was given every game up to and including the St, V & G qulaifiers to play the position

I just can't see Mitchell making this decision unless an injury crisis occurs in the CB positions. As I posted before, if Klukowski had been thrust into Hasting's situation at the GC and had demonstrated at least the same level of ability and improvement over those three plus weeks then I would be more supportive of your argument, even as he continues exclusively as a left back in Belgium.

[jpg75]

Hoillet can't play in league games yet because he isn't 18, some kind of paperwork is needed...that and the German leagues are on (official) hiatus currently. Ed, how many friendlies has he played in and how many goals has he scored? What about in the Verbandsliga with the reserves?

[Cheeta]

Just to change direction for a bit...

Anyone catch Neil Davidson on Saturday's show? Worked Saturday and missed it and can't find the vid on the website. (Not that the vids are worth watching these days, still getting a very poor stream at my end).

P.S. Super podcast on January 7th. Very good listen.