The Milkman cometh.

[Robert]

Is Dale Mitchell the man who's going to take Canada to the promised land (also known as the World Cup Final)? It's unbelievable how far one can milk a 1-0 win over Burkina Faso at the U20 championship back on December 8, 2003. Dale owes Josh everything he's ever gotten from Canadian soccer for that 59th minute score. Since then, we haven't exactly had a lot to cheer about. Dismal in Holland, worst in Canada and now he's in charge of the seniors. Pretty smug smile at the draw though when he found out our opponent is going to be St. V. & G. An opponent he will not even be able to scout out in the 1st round because they received a bye.

[VPjr]

You will find some Mitchell apologists/supporters here but I'm not one of them. Until I'm proven wrong, I dont believe Dale Mitchell is ready for the job he's got (and may never be ready). However, if I'm proven wrong, I'll be the first to come on here and publicly admit I was wrong.

[Grizzly]

I don't think there is anyone who is a Mitchell apologist/supporter here. I think the two camps here are those who are willing to give Mitchell a chance to show what he can do and those who have already pre-judged him as a failure.

[Scottie]

let's leave this discussion in the 25 other threads it has.

[Toronto MB]

More like he should thank Iain Hume. He scored all three of our other goals in that tournament, two of which were absolute gems. He nearly put us past Spain single-handedly, after scoring the equaliser from long range he rocketed a 35 yard free kick off the cross-bar. 6 inches lower and we were in the semis.

But on a serious note, Mitchell did have an impressive run in qualifying for the U-20 World Cups. Let's keep in mind that there is absolutely no precedent for Canada succeeding at a FIFA World Cup (on the Men's side) so I'm not going to hold him liable for our failures to advance in Holland and Canada.

The team played very well against Costa Rica at BMO, played a rather lack-luster game on a slippery pitch against Iceland and were awful against South Africa. So we have no grounds to hate him or love him yet.

I pray he gives all the haters a reason to bite their tongues by leading us to 2010, but that being said, I have my concerns.

[The Ref]

It seems that Mitchell's limited success is due more to some inspired players rather than his own inspiration. I think that we've seen Mitchell long enough to know he is not a genius or has any hidden talents waiting to be showcased. However I remain hopeful that at least we can reach South Africa. Anything after that would be a first for Canada.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by The Ref

It seems that Mitchell's limited success is due more to some inspired players rather than his own inspiration.

I think that you have to give Mitchell both credit and blame equally for whatever success and failure his teams have had. It is not correct to place the entire blame of the recent U-20 failure on the players as Mitchell did but is equally incorrect to say his earlier successes were due only to the performances of a couple of players like Simpson or Hume. National team coaches are indeed somewhat at the mercy of the talent at their disposal especially at the youth level. That has to be taken into consideration in evaluating all the U-20 results. However, I think we can all agree that at the senior level we have pretty good talent available compared to the CONCACAF standard so Mitchell certainly has the players to succeed and has to produce.

[The Ref]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

National team coaches are indeed somewhat at the mercy of the talent at their disposal especially at the youth level.

That is very true. But I would say such situation occurs equally at youth level and senior level. In other words, our National coaches do not have the players long enough time to teach them new skills or modify their individual play. Their interaction is somewhat limited to some strategies and practicing certain plays or moves. And of course to juggling positions and selecting appropriate players for the formation.

I may be wrong on this as I have never coached at this level. Anyway, it seems then that the coach must select the talent wisely and try to get the best of them guy.

[Grizzly]

I think the coach is more subject to the talent level at the youth level because the talent pool to select from is much smaller, usually a 2 year age range of players. Even in the top soccer nations the talent in a particular age range will vary much more than that available to the full senior team. Regardless of that, I think we can say that at the senior level we have had the talent pool to put us as one of the top teams in CONCACAF for some time and that coaches results have to reflect that. We should have done better in the last WCQ and we should expect to do well this time as well. I don't think we are quite at that level in the youth ranks yet though that doesn't excuse coaches when they make selection or tactical errors.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

Regardless of that, I think we can say that at the senior level we have had the talent pool to put us as one of the top teams in CONCACAF for some time and that coaches results have to reflect that. We should have done better in the last WCQ and we should expect to do well this time as well.

Agreed. But I'd hate to lose any of our key midfield starters for an extended period of time during WCQ, especially DeGuzman.

[fan]

It is clear on our MNT that the coach is handicapped by time with the players and our organizations obvious dysfunction.

That is why selecting the strategy and formation first is vital and then matching the right players to it with the most talent is absolutely essential.

I think we have enough of a deep and varied talent pool to match any style a coach chooses.

Of course some positions or tactics are easy to teach like finishing.

You would likely have to find 3 or 4 finishers to account for availability and injury factors.

I would like to see the style and strategy remain a constant while the players become interchangeable rather than the other way around.

[Robert]

Stephen Hart had developed a type chemistry with the senior Canadian national team that I have never seen previously with one of our squads. His enthusiasm on the bench paid direct dividends on the field. I don't like to blame the failure of our teams on referees, but in that semi-final of the last Gold Cup, against the Yanks, we were ripped off big time. The Hart shown by our boys with that final minute equalizer rivals the best fight I've seen in a dog on any soccer pitch. Since Dale has taken over, the team's performances have slipped noticably. Why is that? He's blessed with exactly the same players Stephen had at his disposal. Maybe the players respect Dale, but Dale isn't getting the same kind of bang out of the same players. What more evidence do we need? In my opinion, the CSA has screwed up majorly. They had a guy who was doing a good job, and they replaced him with a dour Milkman.

[Gordon]

I for one think that Mitchell is not quite ready for Prime Time as a Senior Men's National Team coach but...he has finished atop of 3 consecutive CONCACAF groups, finishing including ahead of the US in the United States in 2003 qualifying and both Mexico and Honduras in Honduras. Those are pretty decent accomplishments that have not been mirrored by the U-17 or senior men's team. Is there any other Canadian coach able ot be judged by his team's performances over 3 World Cups? So I think there is room to be a little more circumspect about his recor with the U-20s.

[RJB]

This World Cup is more important than any for soccer in Canada. Granted, we could say that about every World Cup after it, but this is the most important because our professional clubs are stronger than ever. The Impact, Whitecaps, and TFC are getting plenty of exposure, and they would only benefit from a World Cup berth for our mens team.

Say what you will, but Dale Mitchell is under a lot of pressure for that very reason. Let's not forget that we haven't won under him yet, nor did he do anything of value to actually earn the job. The pressure is on him to prove he deserves it, not on us to get off his back.

Funny, when I think of the Dale Mitchell-Rene Simoes saga, I can't help but think of Steve McLaren. Hopefully after WCQ, I will think of Jurgen Klinsman.

[Robert]

I'll go along with giving Dale a chance. If he is able to guide Canada to the Hex, then Canada will have made progress. It's been 15 years since we last competed at that level. In the past two campaigns, Canada was eliminated each time at the semi-final stage. On both occassions, we lost the crucial opening match at home. Trinidad 0-2, at Edmonton and Guatemala 0-2, at Burnaby. This just shows how important it is to get the right results at home, as we never seriously challenged for Hex qualifying spots after these two defeats. If Canada qualifies for this year's semi-final group, chances are we will face Mexico, Jamaica and Honduras. Conceding that the Mexicans will take one of the two qualifying spots from this group, means that Canada will definately have to win both their home matches against Jamaica and Honduras to stand any chance of securing the other qualifying place from this group. Mitchell should have someone checking out both Jamaica and Honduras in their qualifying matches leading up to the semi-final group stage. The game tapes of all four of those matches should also be obtained, in order for our boys to know what to expect. However, if Dale fails to secure win the opening home game (allthough if this turns out to be against Mexico a tie would be acceptable) of the semi-final matches, or gain a result in the opening away game (unless that happens to be at the Azteca), he should have the decency to admit he is in over his head and step down to at least give someone else (If the CSA is paying attention and has the balls to make a change at a time when it is necessary. Stephen HART would be a great alternative, as he already knows the team.) a chance of doing the job, because I feel there is no reason why Canada should not be able to finish ahead of both Jamaica and Honduras in this group.

[Number6]

quote:Originally posted by Toronto MB

The team played very well against Costa Rica at BMO, played a rather lack-luster game on a slippery pitch against Iceland and were awful against South Africa. So we have no grounds to hate him or love him yet.

I think we do have some room to pass judgment... how many of those were wins? It seems that the club has gotten worse and worse since he took over.

Mitchell is all the wrong appointment and part of the problems of CSA.

I spoke with this old Canadian soccer fan and he said we'll never get rid of these people who ruin our game. Unless we go to their homes, drag them out and beat them senseless, we can expect less than mediocrity from the Administration.

[denis]

I am also of the belief that Mitchell has been gifted a job that he has not earned nor is qualified for. The performances under him have been progressively worse. Even the Costa Rica game that many have called a good performance (a draw at home?) was a step down in quality from what we saw at the Gold Cup. With that said, the only break I can give Mitchell is lack of prep time. We saw what can be accomplished if you get a team to gel such as we witnessed under Hart. Lets hope at the very least Mitchell can have the team comfortable playing together before we start qualifications.

[Robert]

Iceland, South Africa's "B" squad, and now Estonia. Who picks these matches and why? Are we that desparate to find an opponent. Aside from the U.S. playing the South African "A" side, which other Concacaf country goes through the trouble to play these meaningless types of contests? I guess anything is better than nothing, but how are these matches going to benefit our MNT for the June 14th and 21st matches and the soon thereafter semi-final group matches, with half of those played in Central American and Caribbian climes? The guys in Europe are already match-fit and really don't need to get together on a geyser in Iceland or in the tundras of Estonia. However, some matches for our North American based players, who are all out of season right now, against some Concacaf opponents might prove to have some value come summer time.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

are we that desparate to find an opponent.

simple answer to that question....YES.

Canada is not a big draw...YET!

The better you are as a soccer nation, the better quality teams that are interested to play you, especially when they are paying us to play them. We get countries with limited budgets (like us) who see Canada as a team they can afford to play.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

simple answer to that question....YES.

Canada is not a big draw...YET!

The better you are as a soccer nation, the better quality teams that are interested to play you, especially when they are paying us to play them. We get countries with limited budgets (like us) who see Canada as a team they can afford to play.

Hi Red, got your message the other day and will get back to you on that via Email if that's how you'd like to do it.

Getting back to the matter at hand, I realize that we are not as attractive an opponent as say Italy for instance. However, there must be some Central American opponent that we can entice into either coming up to Vancouver around this time of the year, or else we should be able to market ourselves for a match or two down South. How much would it cost to get the Haitian or Cuban team to come up here? 20 airplane tickets, two nights in a hotel (say 10 rooms), and some scarves and new boots for their players? If that cost plus the cost of assembling a Canadian team is divided by 5,000 fans at Swangard, tickets shouldn't have to cost more than $20 a piece.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

Getting back to the matter at hand, I realize that we are not as attractive an opponent as say Italy for instance. However, there must be some Central American opponent that we can entice into either coming up to Vancouver around this time of the year, or else we should be able to market ourselves for a match or two down South. How much would it cost to get the Haitian or Cuban team to come up here? 20 airplane tickets, two nights in a hotel (say 10 rooms), and some scarves and new boots for their players? If that cost plus the cost of assembling a Canadian team is divided by 5,000 fans at Swangard, tickets shouldn't have to cost more than $20 a piece.

It would not likely be difficult to get a central american team up to Canada BUT the CSA don't want to pay for it.

When I had that meeting with the CSA suits 3 months ago, the message was loud and clear that inviting teams to Canada is too expensive to do very often. It's more attractive to them to play away games vs. anyone who is halfway decent and who is willing to pay us to come to them.

While I have little respect for that position, it's not cheap to host a game. Believe me that you aren't just buying 20 plane tickets (try double because you have hangers on). Hotels must be of a certain quality (4 star or 5 star minimum). transportation, meals, security, etc.. etc... etc... Then there is the cost to rent facilities, the cost to sell tickets, advertising, etc.. etc.. etc..

I still think they should do it but I guess that they are trying to save money to pay Nykamp (sorry to bring that up...LOL).

[Robert]

The suggestion was off the top of my head, as were the details. Soccer, like anything else is a business and in order to make money, you have to spend money. If the CSA is unable to come up with ideas on how to do that, then they should all resign. An alternative might be to play a home and home series with the United States. This time of the year, Vancouver and Seattle would make a viable choice of venues. Both countries are in the off-season and it might be beneficial for to stage 10 day camps for their North American based players, who could use it more than those currently playing in Europe. It would give Dale an opportunity to expand his player pool, the cost of staging this would probably be as inexpensive as you could get it and fans would get a rare opportunity to see a pair of interesting internations, even if they would be considered "B" level internations. As far as the CSA's financial problems are concerned, they are of their own making and why therefore should our players and fans bear the brundt of the CSA's ineptitude. One of the things that pisses me off about Vic, is his public finger-pointing that the fault rests with the last administration. Who knows, he? Probably both slates have some degree of responsibility in this matter. As I see it one made a bad deal, and the other dealt with it poorly. It really doesn't matter at this point who is to blame. The situation exists and has to be dealt with in the best possible manner. Vic was quoted once in the now defunct WFP that the CSA should put their all kahunas clearly on the table. Well Vic is now in charge, but he hasn't shown what the CSA agenda is. Practise what you preach, or risk being labelled a hypocrite. The bottom line is that the CSA has never been able to give Canada's soccer community what it wants. For that matter I don't think this current administration even has a clue what Canadian soccer fans want. All we get are what the few in power think is best for Canadian soccer, and we all know how unsatisfying that has been. Maybe someone on this board, or even the at CSA, could conduct a poll to find out what Canadian soccer fans really want.

[ag futbol]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

The suggestion was off the top of my head, as were the details. Soccer, like anything else is a business and in order to make money, you have to spend money. If the CSA is unable to come up with ideas on how to do that, then they should all resign. An alternative might be to play a home and home series with the United States.

Man you hit the nail on the head with that one.

Have to wonder how much revenue the USSF generated with their recent friendly with Brazil. I'm sure CBF has a pretty hefty appreance fee but they packed foxborough which is pretty impressive. That money can be usedlater to fund just about anything, it would also be tough competition but a good experience for just about any team.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by ag futbol

Man you hit the nail on the head with that one.

Have to wonder how much revenue the USSF generated with their recent friendly with Brazil. I'm sure CBF has a pretty hefty appreance fee but they packed foxborough which is pretty impressive. That money can be usedlater to fund just about anything, it would also be tough competition but a good experience for just about any team.

I really dont think a home and away fixture of US v canada is all that attractive to the USSF.

I don't see it selling too many tickets south of the border, although it would absolutely sell out BMO or Stade Saputo on the return leg. I wouldn't imagine you would sell out Commonwealth but you'd draw a good crowd certainly.

The Americans love to play home fixtures against Mexico (because a sell out is a certainty) or bigger name soccer countries (i.e. Brazil, Sweden) because it sells tickets and TV rights. I wonder when the US will line up a freindly in the US vs the English. That would be a bonanza.

I think the USSF looks at Canada as a money loser, frankly, which is why we don't get them to play us very often.

[Gordon]

The USSF has no interest in helping Canada get on the map. They host a number of home games that are not hugely attractive so it is not a question of money.