USL club in Winnipeg?

[PostmanPat]

I've read a few topics on the site which gave a little bit of insight into the potential of a return of professional outdoor soccer to Winnipeg, however most of them are older. With Toronto FC's joining MLS encouraging the rejuvenation of public consciousness in Canada to domestic soccer, I'm wondering whether there's been any interest on the part of Winnipegers or businessmen in the city to potentially push the formation of a Winnipeg soccer club which would play in one of the two main USL divisions.

Also, any idea as to the process of construction of a new soccer facility in the city. I've read a few topics which brought up the question of the revamping of the Soccer Spectrum, but not much in recent months.

[redhat]

No serious interest, and even the CMISL team for Winnipeg cannot find a venue.

Winnipeg has always struggled to field any professional team, even in the CSL days.

There was the experiment in PDL with the Sundogs a few years ago, but I doubt the

seriousness of the bid in the first place. USL would love to have a first division

team here, but the Sundogs opted for PDL. In the end, not enough interest, marketing,

and money were in place to compete for summer entertainment dollars (CFL Bombers and

AA Goldeyes baseball). There may be some interest in the future, but who knows?

[PostmanPat]

quote:No serious interest, and even the CMISL team for Winnipeg cannot find a venue.

Winnipeg has always struggled to field any professional team, even in the CSL days.

There was the experiment in PDL with the Sundogs a few years ago, but I doubt the

seriousness of the bid in the first place. USL would love to have a first division

team here, but the Sundogs opted for PDL. In the end, not enough interest, marketing,

and money were in place to compete for summer entertainment dollars (CFL Bombers and

AA Goldeyes baseball). There may be some interest in the future, but who knows?

Alright, thanks for the reply. It seems to me that the two major issues which plague professional soccer in Winnipeg is a lack of any organization in regards to forming a club first, and the lack of a decent venue for that club second. Perhaps if individuals in the Winnipeg community were to begin some sort of lobby to at least indicate public interest, then perhaps the business community would take notice and potentially solve the issue of the venue. Saputo Stadium in Montreal is likely not an ideal venue, however the price tag is definitely attractive to smaller investors and partnership with the University of Manitoba to allow the Bison men and women to operate out of such a venue is possible.

Overall, I get the impression that nobody has made the step forward to put the idea into the public consciousness.

[Cheeta]

I think you nailed it.

Don't doubt that there are investors in the city who'd take a bath on operating a team in USL Division 1 over a number of years jsut to see if it'll fly. Three years, four years or whatever USL would require of them before launching, but it's always been a venue issue. No one is going to risk venue capitol and potentially continuous operating losses without some sort of payoff. And there will never be a payoff for pro-soccer in Winnipeg.

Asper with his CFL stadium scheme certainly isn't. That's just a glorified retail land grab which gives him a CFL club and "ownership" of a stadium venue for his lifetime. No risk and when all is told possibly the best investment he'll every make. With or without the CFL club or new stadium. He's covered his bases.

Shame about WSC 2 at the U of M. Glad for it but had a decent stadium been included in the plans, and I'm not saying the potential isn't there for that in the future, but had a reasonable stadium been draw into the scheme we might have had just reason to expect something in the way of pro-football back in Winnipeg in the near future.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

Asper with his CFL stadium scheme certainly isn't. That's just a glorified retail land grab which gives him a CFL club and "ownership" of a stadium venue for his lifetime. No risk and when all is told possibly the best investment he'll every make. With or without the CFL club or new stadium. He's covered his bases.

Why wouldn't Asper or any future owners of the new stadium and the Bombers not want to explore ventures that would allow him to fill-in dates for the new facility? It would seem pretty hard to justify a new CFL facility for just 9-10 CFL games in any given year. Moreso given the costs to build such a facility.

Perhaps the counter argument is that baseball ( given its roots, and presence on the Canadian landscape) would would be higher on the pecking order. But, its much easier to get a USL D1 club. In regards to the short term economics, you could argue on the premise that this venture would serve only to fill dates and reduce your operating costs. No different than Robert Kraft in New England with Gillette stadium. Somehow I doubt that his perseverance in sticking it out with his MLS club has anything to do with any hidden passion for soccer.

[jonovision]

quote:Originally posted by PostmanPat

Saputo Stadium in Montreal is likely not an ideal venue, however the price tag is definitely attractive to smaller investors and partnership with the University of Manitoba to allow the Bison men and women to operate out of such a venue is possible.

Currently, the University of Manitoba doesn't even have a mens soccer team, and the women's soccer program is only a few years old.

[redhat]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Why wouldn't Asper or any future owners of the new stadium and the Bombers not want to explore ventures that would allow him to fill-in dates for the new facility? It would seem pretty hard to justify a new CFL facility for just 9-10 CFL games in any given year. Moreso given the costs to build such a facility.

But, its much easier to get a USL D1 club. In regards to the short term economics, you could argue on the premise that this venture would serve only to fill dates and reduce your operating costs.

The short answer is ego. No individual in their right mind would

want to own a CFL franchise without anticipating losses. And the

man is even asking the city/province for funds in his playground.

But it remains to be seen. The proposed stadium CAN be suitable

for soccer (field turf) and Asper is a true Blue Bomber fan (and

a former board member), so maybe he'll get one of his buddies

(ex-Crocus maybe?) to partner up with him in a USL franchise.

I doubt it, as soccer in summer is a thorn for owners of the

Bombers and AA Goldeyes (Katz the mayor is the owner), who are

competing for your attention dollars.

The past experience with the Winnipeg Fury, unfortunately soured

the taste of Winnipeggers looking for winning teams in major leagues.

Here's a common saying : "Why would I support the Winnipeg (Fury/

insert team name), when I follow Chelsea/ManU/Milan/Real Madrid?

I'd rather go to the lake ..." Well, they can enjoy the mosquitoes.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Why wouldn't Asper or any future owners of the new stadium and the Bombers not want to explore ventures that would allow him to fill-in dates for the new facility? It would seem pretty hard to justify a new CFL facility for just 9-10 CFL games in any given year. Moreso given the costs to build such a facility.

The Eskimos have gotten away with that for years.

You need to get out of Toronto more often.

[VPjr]

Do the Eskimos own Commonwealth?

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

Do the Eskimos own Commonwealth?

And was Commonwealth built recently, expressly for CFL football?

[PostmanPat]

quote:And was Commonwealth built recently, expressly for CFL football?

Commonwealth Stadium in Edmonton was built for the 1978 Commonwealth Games.

quote: Do the Eskimos own Commonwealth?

Commonwealth is owned publically by the City of Edmonton.

quote:Here's a common saying : "Why would I support the Winnipeg (Fury/

insert team name), when I follow Chelsea/ManU/Milan/Real Madrid?

I'd rather go to the lake ..." Well, they can enjoy the mosquitoes.

Well that same belief prevailed in Toronto until Toronto FC proved that support for foreign clubs can be channeled into a local club. It's impossible to say here in Winnipeg until someone decides to put forward the money and effort to try.

Does anyone by chance have any info on the finances of the average USL-1 club?

[redhat]

quote:Originally posted by PostmanPat

Does anyone by chance have any info on the finances of the average USL-1 club?

Hey Pat, here's a direct quote from USL on startup:

"There are variable estimated initial investments for each league. The

initial franchise fee range is $25,000 to $350,000 (depending on

franchise type). Average operating budgets for the USL First Division

range from $1M - $1.5M, USL Second Division range from $500K - $1M,

the USL Premier Development League range from $100K - $200K, and the

USL W-League from $75K to $150K. League administrative and

affiliation fees vary from league to league."

http://www.uslsoccer.com/aboutusl/franchise/123541.html

Keep in mind travel costs, the bane of the CSL existence. USL1 is

great with Vancouver and Montreal, as well as Minnesota, but you

also have Puerto Rico and Miami. USL2 may be better in terms of

lower fees, but most of the teams are based in the East Coast

(Baltimore, Maryland, Richmond, even Bermuda). Unless Canadian

cities join USL2 (and form a division), its feasibility is unlikely.

And PDL, well it's great geographically (Toronto Lynx, Thunder Bay,

Wisconsin), it's still PDL --- 5th division in North America.

Also the issue of adequate playing venue can be significant.

WSC, Pan Am stadium, or Winnipeg Stadium are possibilities.

If a franchise comes up, I will support it as a fan. However the

success of TFC has not really translated in significant interest

in professional soccer in the city. Not many people have asked

for a TFC jersey at River City Sports ...

[PostmanPat]

quote:If a franchise comes up, I will support it as a fan. However the

success of TFC has not really translated in significant interest

in professional soccer in the city. Not many people have asked

for a TFC jersey at River City Sports ...

Same here, any sort of professional club here in Winnipeg, be it USL-1 or USL-2 would be a major coup for soccer fans in the city and for the province in general. Thanks for the financial info, I did some rough calculating and an operating budget of 1.5M for 14 home matches is about 107,000 dollars per match to cover the expenditures. If we had a venue then an average attendance of 5,000 would require ticket prices of 21.5 dollars, 8,000 attendance would be 13.75 dollars and 10,000 would be 10.7 dollars, and that doesn't include other forms of income. So using my terribly rough numbers, if we had a venue then it would be definitely possible to manage a USL-1 club here. Of course we'd need a venue, and someone or a group of people to put forward a franchise fee of around 350,000 dollars.

By the way, which River City Sports do you work at?

[redhat]

quote:Originally posted by PostmanPat

By the way, which River City Sports do you work at?

Oh no I don't work for RCS, I just buy about 10-12 jerseys

a year as prizes for my seminars. Mostly MNT ones, but

I have never seen any MLS jerseys including Toronto FC.

Every time I asked for one, they say there's no demand.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by PostmanPat

Same here, any sort of professional club here in Winnipeg, be it USL-1 or USL-2 would be a major coup for soccer fans in the city and for the province in general. Thanks for the financial info, I did some rough calculating and an operating budget of 1.5M for 14 home matches is about 107,000 dollars per match to cover the expenditures. If we had a venue then an average attendance of 5,000 would require ticket prices of 21.5 dollars, 8,000 attendance would be 13.75 dollars and 10,000 would be 10.7 dollars, and that doesn't include other forms of income. So using my terribly rough numbers, if we had a venue then it would be definitely possible to manage a USL-1 club here. Of course we'd need a venue, and someone or a group of people to put forward a franchise fee of around 350,000 dollars.

By the way, which River City Sports do you work at?

I think that your figures are in the ball park. At the time when the Lynx played at varsity, the 5k number is the figure than was often heard as being the break even point.

Although, 21$/game is steep and presents a challenge. Add in revenues from soccer camps and clinic as well as the odd community advertising and sponsorship and that 21$ number should come down to about 15$. Which is where everybody else is at more or less.

But that is why it is crucial that the owners own the club also own the facility because the revenues from things like parking and concessions can drastically reduce your break-even point. This is why I believed that there was optimism when I first heard of the Aspers plans to build the stadium and own the CFL team. That would put them in a unique situation amongst the CFL teams. As for the USL?, suppose ( all other things being equal) that you figure that you need to average 5K per game at 12$ per ticket to break even. This is not unreasonable considering what we know of the situations in places like Montreal, Vancouver, Toronto Lynx, Rochester etc. But all those teams ( until saputo stadium opens) play in facilities that they do not own and operate. What if the owner can get more than 12$ per spectator on average through revenues from concessions and parking for example. Revenues which you dont get if the city or some other landlord owns the facility. Now, whats the average per game break even point? 3500 maybe? maybe even 2500 or lower.

[PostmanPat]

quote:Now, whats the average per game break even point? 3500 maybe? maybe even 2500 or lower.

Potentially, if any USL club in Winnipeg only needed to pull in 3,500 attendance a match in order to make ends meet then that would definitely make it more viable for the club's continued existence and prosperity. However I'm taking a wild guess that in Winnipeg, if someone was to build and own their own facilities for the club then the operating budget would likely require a raise in expenditures to cover the original cost of investment in those facilities, as well as the start-up costs of the club in general. While this might not be extreme at all, but for the club to be considered as healthy it would likely require in the range of 6,000 to 8,000 attendance per home match, which I think is definitely possible if the club is marketed correctly within the community. David Asper doesn't come across as the type who would be a hidden soccer-fan, so I doubt that he would invest in a USL club and I have a feeling that many potential investors just haven't thought of the idea of professional soccer in Winnipeg. If Asper's 35,000 capacity concept for a new Stadium passes, then that would provide potential facilities for a USL club, but I doubt that Asper would be the owner of it which wouldn't allow for secondary sources of income other then the gate.

Stade Saputo though, the concept of a 15 million dollar investment to build a 12.5k capacity stadium in Winnipeg might seem much more worth the investment, then a massive honking 165 million dollar stadium proposed by Asper for the city. Simple in its construction and facilities it could be cheap enough for public investment, combined with investment on the part of University of Manitoba (if placed out on the Fort Garry campus). However, I doubt that City hall or the provincial legislature would have any initiative themselves without some outside investor(s) who would push in Winnipeg for a USL club vigorously, with public lobbying and pledges of investment of their own private capital. I think its possible for this second outcome, and it might be less expensive and risky overall then for an owner to rent Asper's Stadium for 14-16 home matches per year. I don't see any such individuals who would be willing to do either option at this point, however.

[Winnipeg Fury]

Not sure if you guys saw the front page of the Free Press yesterday, but the Asper's are now calling on the new Bomber stadium to have a roof so it can be used year round, including 'soccer.'

Winnipeg Sun,

January 6, 2008

Asper floats bubble

New-stadium pitch adds cover

By ROB NAY, SUN MEDIA

A proposed plan for a Winnipeg football stadium includes a new lid that would make it capable of year-round operations.

David Asper has unveiled details on an inflatable bubble dome that would make the stadium available to a range of groups during the Blue Bombers' off-season.

The bubble dome would be "connected to the hard infrastructure of the stadium" through tunnels and air locks, Asper said yesterday.

It would allow for a range of indoor activities, including soccer, amateur football, lacrosse and other physical fitness activities, he said.

"There's a significant recreational infrastructure deficit in Winnipeg," said Asper.

During the past few months, Winnipeggers have been asked to submit ideas for a new stadium through e-mails, surveys, forums and one-on-one and group consultations. After sifting through the feedback, Asper said the bubble dome idea came to the forefront.

"We came to the conclusion that it was very practical solution to both what the budget can sustain and what the community wants and needs," he said.

A year ago, Asper presented a proposal for a $120-million stadium to the Winnipeg Blue Bombers' directors. Since then, he's been trying to convince two levels of government to contribute an $80-million share and donate land currently occupied by Canad Inns Stadium. The feds have not pledged any support but the province publicly announced it will consider the Asper plan. Public opinion has been divided regarding the new stadium.

Asper said the capital costs for the bubble would run about $1.8 million, with yearly operating costs between $400,000 and $500,000.

Other Canadian cities such as Calgary, Toronto and Ottawa have already made use of the bubble stadium concept.

"If the proposal is successful the whole idea is to calibrate this thing on a cost recovery basis," said Asper, who would contribute the funds for the bubble.

Asper said "expanded uses by the community" of a new stadium have been part of the original proposals for a new facility.

INFLATED DOME

Some of the design details, subject to change, of the bubble dome for a new stadium:

- Bubble shape would be maintained using computer-controlled, internal pressurized air

- Approximately 137 metres long by 76 metres wide

- Tested to meet Manitoba weather standards and able to withstand 193 km/h winds and snow loads of up to 40 pounds per square yard

- Bubble would be opaque, insulated and feature interior lighting

- Would be inflated after Bombers season ends and dismantled in the spring

[jonovision]

The dome would only be in place during the winter. I think the main benefit for soccer in the city would be having another indoor venue, in a relatively central location.

[PostmanPat]

quote:Not sure if you guys saw the front page of the Free Press yesterday, but the Asper's are now calling on the new Bomber stadium to have a roof so it can be used year round, including 'soccer.'

I didn't read the article, but a neighbour is saving it for me to read. But as jonovision noted it would only be used during the window, but the mentioning of soccer suggests that David Asper might be looking to allow the amateur leagues in Winnipeg to use his new Stadium idea as an extra venue, which frankly they desperately need at the moment. That or it would allow soccer to be played during the winter months in some sort of winter league.