MLS rules benefit Toronto FC

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

This thread revolves around a debate as to whether a roster regulation setup should continue to apply in which TFC has to use a sizable quota of Canadian players in senior roster terms. As non-Canadians Abbe Ibrahim and Jose Cancela were clearly imports and even if you want to play a game with semantics on that all that was traded for with RBNY in the case of Abbe Ibrahim was his MLS rights, which RBNY retained when he was placed on waivers. He had ceased to be an MLS player and was back in Togo when Mo Johnston contacted him about attending the TFC training camp. Fact is that a Togolese and a Uruguayan player were on the roster initially so it is simply not accurate to claim that Mo Johnston was only interested in British and American players.

[Ivan]

I don't know, I thought Gerba definately stood out in the Costa Rica game and I think he would be a huge asset to TFC.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

Players that are already in MLS can hardly be termed "import signings", so I don't think the label applies to Ibrahim and Cancela.

It's not as if they were unknown quantities in MLS circles before this year.

Precisely. I obviously wasn't referring to players acquired via trade or the expansion draft.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

You were implying that there is a bias on Mo Johnston's part towards acquiring players with a background in British soccer. I think it goes without saying that he probably has better connections there than elsewhere but the reality is that he had an African and a South American on his roster as the season began and had players from a wide range of countries on trial in training camp and later through the season and that would tend to point towards him being willing to sign players from a wide range of backgrounds as Scandinavian soccer is a lot closer to British soccer than is the case in a lot of other parts of Europe. Your assertion that some pro-British bias on his part could somehow affect how he rates Olivier Occean, therefore, seems a bit off base to me. I suspect it really is as simple as him thinking he isn't quite good enough to justify using a large chunk of the salary cap on him rather than on a player like Dichio or Cunningham. As to whether he is right? Not having watched a lot of Norwegian soccer in recent years I have an open mind. Anyway, over and out until after the New Year. Happy Holidays to everybody!

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

You were implying that there is a bias on Mo Johnston's part towards acquiring players with a background in British soccer. I think it goes without saying that he probably has better connections there than elsewhere but the reality is that he had an African and a South American on his roster as the season began and had players from a wide range of countries on trial in training camp and later through the season

Sigh. The point I was making is that when building his expansion team the only new non-Canuck players he brought into the league to build his team were UK-based - Dichio, Robinson, Welsh & Samuel. The UK was the market he looked towards to acquire new MLS talent that wasn't Canadian, when he had the whole world to look towards. The fact that he could draft players from other MLS teams is neither here nor there (it's not like he had a choice in who the other teams exposed in the expansion draft). Leaving aside the many other examples of a UK bias I could cite if I was bothered, if that doesn't give off the impression to you that he has his own biases and subjective opinions that can affect his judgment, then it's probably another example that nobody is beyond bias.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

He went to Togo to get a player whether you like it or not and he had players from Colombia, South Africa, Jamaica, Spain and Portugal at the training camp at various points so he did look beyond the UK. The reality is he looked all over the place. What part of having better contacts in the UK is so tough for you to understand? Having a connection at Norwich City through the then manager Peter Grant being an ex-teammate from his Celtic days and also having an ex-Norwich City player in the shape of Jim Brennan already on board helped him get Carl Robinson without having to pay a transfer fee despite the fact he was under contract. Welsh came over on trial on Robinson's recommendation as an ex-teammate at Sunderland by all accounts and I wouldn't be surprised if he was a factor in getting Dichio as well. But what does any of this have to do with why he doesn't rate Gerba and Occean? Probably diddlysquat, in my opinion. Worth noting that Mo Johnston still seems to want Kenny Stamatapolous back next season despite the roster regulation changes and his Norwegian soccer pedigree. According to what the player himself said on a recent Red Patch Live interview the main stumbling block on that is that Tromso are asking for an unrealistically high transfer fee.

[Richard]

He had no Italians, clearly that's what bothered Gian-Luca :-)

[loyola]

Andrea Lombardo....

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

He went to Togo to get a player whether you like it or not and he had players from Colombia, South Africa, Jamaica, Spain and Portugal at the training camp at various points so he did look beyond the UK. The reality is he looked all over the place. What part of having better contacts in the UK is so tough for you to understand?

Yes, and no doubt those contacts in the UK also caused Mo to overpay & overate the majority of those players as well.

Nobody said that the team was exclusively Canadian, American & British. That's just a red-herring you are introducing. The fact that he looked to the UK as his prime source of new MLS content & over-pay and over-rate those same players is the point that you seem unwilling to grasp or admit to. Carl Robinson's role could easily have been taken by cheaper North American talent, yet somehow Mo found it necessary to give him double the salary that Jim Brennan gets (even though nobody would view Robinson as twice the player as Brennan). You can point out that he traded Edson Buddle for Tyrone Marshall all you like - it will not change the facts or history.

As for what this has to do with Mo's opinion or Gerba & Occean - you tell me. You are the one that made that connection, not I. I was simply pointing out in response to your "Mo is more objective than the people here" comment that everyone has their own biases & subjective views, including Mo who seems to over-value & overate UK-based players. I can totally understand why he does, but he still does it. I don't see how Mo can be said to be above bias or subjectivity, which you seem keen to argue, unless he is in fact an android or cyborg with a computer for a brain and a microchip for a heart.

[jimmynow]

i think the expansion year presents too many variables to complain about some sort of bias yet.

it was a completely new team, in a stadium under construction, without any idea of what the fan base would be like, in a pre-beckham league, in a country not known for soccer.

all of these factors mean having to do things differently, such as overpay to convince proven players to come here. overpaying ensures you at least get some consistency, some proven talent, rather than taking some kid out of Africa and trying to make him the centerpiece of the team.

secondly, there cannot be a bias based solely on 1 season. In science, trends need to be seen over a number of years before we can be sure of whether bias exists. whether this is a "Mo Johnston bias for the UK" or whether the exigencies of the situation dictated signing these players are both possibilities.

saying "Carl Robinson's role could easily have been taken by cheaper North American talent" is not a truth statement (as you write it) but a completely hypothetical argument portrayed as truth.

Please list the players other teams were willing to hand Mo Johnston to serve that role at a cheaper price. Of course, you can't... which explains my point. Cheaper players already playing in this league are not instantly available to Mo Johnston at his wish. Secondly, players other teams have signed may not (notice the qualifier, "may" since I'm trying not to state absolute truths about things I don't know) have wanted to come to this newfangled canadian team.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by jimmynow

secondly, there cannot be a bias based solely on 1 season. In science, trends need to be seen over a number of years before we can be sure of whether bias exists. whether this is a "Mo Johnston bias for the UK" or whether the exigencies of the situation dictated signing these players are both possibilities.

saying "Carl Robinson's role could easily have been taken by cheaper North American talent" is not a truth statement (as you write it) but a completely hypothetical argument portrayed as truth.

Please list the players other teams were willing to hand Mo Johnston to serve that role at a cheaper price. Of course, you can't...

Actually I can name four available Canadian players off the top of my head that would have been as suitable in a holding midfield role that Robinson played - Brennan, Pozniak, Harmse & Serioux. Three of the four have played the role for the Canadian national team, while I have no doubts that Brennan could do so as well. That's without looking at which US players might have been available, something I won't bother to do (that was Mo's job, not mine) since my point has already been made. If you are seriously trying to tell me that holding midfield role on the field needs to be filled by someone making the equivalent salary as the MLS Cup MVP, we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

Andrea Lombardo....

OK one but will he last? :-)

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

OK one but will he last? :-)

Dichio is ethnically Italian.

[Ivan]

Actually, the cheap North American point was illustrated by Lalas' brother during the first Revs-TFC game. In that game TFC started Paolo Nagamura in midfield, who had grown up at a latge Brasilian club (can't remember which), then moved over to Arsenal's youth system before ending up in MLS. Meanwhile, the Revs started Jeff Laurentowicz in midfield who played high school soccer, then went to an NCAA school (again, can't remember which). Revs won 4-0 and Laurentowicz had Nagamura in his back pocket all game.

[Gian-Luca]

Perhaps a more obvious suggestion in terms of Americans to fill that role would be TFC's own Maurice Edu. No doubt people will quibble & argue that Robinson is superior to all of the names suggested so far, but the point is it would have been better to have that amount of money spent on a creative midfield import than a holding mid import, and have one of the more affordable North American options playing behind or alongside him in the d-mid role.

Incidentally, jimmynow, I think it's quite obvious that people are stating their own theories, and not presenting their opinions as a scientifically-proven fact, which you seemed to be accusing me of. Adding "IMO" for every sentence in a post can get a bit redundant.

IMO, at least.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Actually I can name four available Canadian players off the top of my head that would have been as suitable in a holding midfield role that Robinson played - Brennan, Pozniak, Harmse & Serioux. Three of the four have played the role for the Canadian national team, while I have no doubts that Brennan could do so as well.

"The fact is everyone has their own biases and subjective opinions - no one is above it, even if some are more affected by others. We're all human, not machines, and gauging talent is not an exact science."

Totally agree with you on that point. I readily admit to falling into that category myself. We both can look at an individual player after a given match or series of matches and then have totally opposite views of the quality of that player.

In gauging his holding midfield situation at the GC, Hart chose to stay with a defensively-challenged USL player (Nash) in the position instead of keeping Pozniak there after the Haiti match or re-introducing Harmse. On the other hand, Yallop maintained a fairly regular role for Harmse with the Galaxy as one of the two holding mids he liked to use and then used a waiver draft pick and SI position on Pozniak, showing his regard for him. Two different managerial perspectives you can add to Mo's talent evaluation of these particular players.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Yes, and no doubt those contacts in the UK also caused Mo to overpay & overate the majority of those players as well.

Exactly how easy do you think it is to attract players like Carl Robinson and Danny Dichio to an MLS expansion team regardless of where they are from? Before anyone is going to uproot their family and move them to another continent to be part of a new operation that is just starting up they will usually, if they have any kind of intelligence, need to hear from someone they trust that the people they are are going to be working with know what they are doing. The people who can vouch for Mo Johnston in that regard tend to be in the UK or North America.

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Nobody said that the team was exclusively Canadian, American & British. That's just a red-herring you are introducing. The fact that he looked to the UK as his prime source of new MLS content & over-pay and over-rate those same players is the point that you seem unwilling to grasp or admit to.

As I have pointed out repeatedly to you based on something as simple as a list of all the countries he had players in on trial from at training camp there is actually no evidence that he looked to Britain as his prime source of players. It is not at all clear that Dichio and Samuel were even part of his plans when the season started. Jose Cancela and Abbe Ibrahim definitely appear to have been, however.

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Carl Robinson's role could easily have been taken by cheaper North American talent, yet somehow Mo found it necessary to give him double the salary that Jim Brennan gets (even though nobody would view Robinson as twice the player as Brennan). You can point out that he traded Edson Buddle for Tyrone Marshall all you like - it will not change the facts or history.

Very few North American players in MLS can do what Carl Robinson does. He makes something very difficult look deceptively easy in terms of providing an easy pass for defenders and then making one touch passes into space to one of his fellow midfielders to get an attacking move going. A lot of spectators don't appreciate what he does for the team. Whether that role is worth 300k out of a 2.1 million salary cap is another issue. My take on that is one of skepticism but I think it might as long as better left and right midfielders are available all the way through the season next time around. Beyond that I wouldn't let him take any more corner kicks as he is basically useless at that but O'Brien being back will help in that regard.

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

As for what this has to do with Mo's opinion or Gerba & Occean - you tell me. You are the one that made that connection, not I.

We clearly wouldn't even be having this discussion if you didn't see some kind of connection. You are the one who brought the British stuff up not me. He rates Stamatopolous in MLS terms. He doesn't rate Gerba and Occean. My attitude is that he could be right and he could be wrong as I don't see much Norwegian soccer.

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

I was simply pointing out in response to your "Mo is more objective than the people here" comment that everyone has their own biases & subjective views, including Mo who seems to over-value & overate UK-based players. I can totally understand why he does, but he still does it. I don't see how Mo can be said to be above bias or subjectivity, which you seem keen to argue, unless he is in fact an android or cyborg with a computer for a brain and a microchip for a heart.

Getting a bit silly with the cyborg and android stuff when it all boils down to the fact that you rationalize how Mo Johnston rates Olivier Occean in terms of some kind of bias because you see it as a "totally ridiculous" assessment while I don't because I am completely open minded on the question of whether the player is in fact up to it. If you look at British soccer do you tend to see managers focusing exclusively on British players these days or do you tend to see them getting the best players available no matter where they come from in what has become a truly international transfer market? Why would Mo Johnston have a different mindset from what tends to be the norm in the UK right now?

Wouldn't normally go the line by line rebuttal route but saw no other way on this one. Merry Christmas to everyone! Hope you don't have to work through it the way I am having to right now.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by redhat

As much as I would prescribe to the American notion of PROFIT,

MLS was started not for that reason. MLS teams are not in the

same situation as European teams where they can sign all Brazilians

if they want.

I think Alex of Chelsea would disagree with you there.

If anything, the player quotas in Europe are more restrictive than MLS, but since the EU is considered to be one country and because of the high amount of soccer talent coming from EU countries, it sometimes seems like there are no restrictions.

MLS quotas are very soft actually and the fact that they come into play at all puts in perspective how little soccer talent is coming out of a country with a 300 million population.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by amacpher

I think Alex of Chelsea would disagree with you there.

If anything, the player quotas in Europe are more restrictive than MLS, but since the EU is considered to be one country and because of the high amount of soccer talent coming from EU countries, it sometimes seems like there are no restrictions.

MLS quotas are very soft actually and the fact that they come into play at all puts in perspective how little soccer talent is coming out of a country with a 300 million population.

I think it also shows that the NCAA system does not produce an adequate number of pro ready players

[ag futbol]

^Yes and unfortunately, even though we’re only talking about NCAA, MLS still has talent leakage to both the USL and Europe. Reportedly the MLS players union was even telling potential new players not to sign development contracts because of the paultry pay rate. A lot of those guys (who can’t cut europe) end up in the USL.

The notion of MLS “not being started for profit” is totally misleading. It’s very clear that MLS was started to help develop the american talent pool, but in order to facilitiate that they need investors, who’s objective is to make a return. No capital, no league. So talent development and profits have to come in balance. As the ownership picture has changed, so have the nature of the objectives.

[Richard]

At last somebody else who understands that professional football, after all the fine words about the glory of the game, national team and player development, is a business that at the end of the day must turn a profit for its investors or they will eventually go away and invest their money elsewhere and your league/team vaporises. There are a few exceptions where for a time teams benefit from wealthy owners who, while they are around, spend money on their team like an expensive hobby but it would be foolish to think one can build an entire league that will survive in the long term dependent upon the magnanimity of such eccentric folks. Professional sports must be run on sound fiscal principles if it is to endure. There are too many examples littering the annals of soccer history of leagues/teams that neglected this important fundamental principle.

[redhat]

quote:Originally posted by ag futbol

The notion of MLS �not being started for profit� is totally misleading. It�s very clear that MLS was started to help develop the american talent pool, but in order to facilitiate that they need investors, who�s objective is to make a return.

I never denied the profit motive eventually affecting the viability

of MLS. I said MLS was "STARTED" not really for the reasons of

profit, but for the development of American players. That's why

there's a limited ownership group, and a player pool OWNED not by

each franchise, but by the league itself.

This info came from an inaugural MLS season programme, by MLS itself.

The league was part of the 1994 World Cup deal with FIFA, whereby a

formal league must be set up AFTER the Finals. The owners lost money

for years, but the rewards were that the USA has been in each final

since 1990. After 10 years, MLS owners SHOULD be expecting some

return from their entertainment foray into soccer. That's why

MLSE would get on board despite higher entry fees than in 1996.

Everyone is comparing MLS ownership with the NBA, NHL, and NFL, and

yet it is totally different. Besides, if the Kraft family loses

money on the Revs, it's more of a tax-offset on its revenue from

the Patriots, the Stadium events, and concessions.

[Richard]

MLS is structured the way it is because the founders were well aware of what caused the downfall of every other league started in the USA and Canada and they very deliberately strove to avoid making the same mistakes. Don't kid yourself that MLS expects to exist indefinitely on charitable contributions from wealthy soccer philanthropists and tax deductions remain business losses, don't pretend otherwise.

[Guest Ed]

But the point is the league HAS indeed existed for over 10 years on largely the charitable contributions from ..... as you state. There is no doubt that the league was founded to DEVELOP US PLAYERS, no and's, if's or but's. And the CSA handing over $35 million to the MLSE was based on a similar principle of developing CDN players. The rule changes do not facilitate the promotion of Cdn players.

[Richard]

First and foremost TFC/MLSE must take care of their direct business concerns. MLSE is not one of those philanthropic eccentrics treating their soccer team like an expensive hobby. MLSE has shareholders to whom it is beholden. All other factors are secondary including giving favourable treatment to players with Canadian passports. I am not sure you are correct in saying that the CSA handed them $35 million - where did that come from?