BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly This is not the issue at all. The issue is whether Mo did a good job in signing Canadian talent and I think he clearly did not. He should have gotten better players than Canizalez and Braz in the first place and viewed those players as risk signings that may or may not pan out.... Like who? From what I can see Lombardo, Reda, Braz, Pozniak, Brennan, Sutton and Canizalez were pretty much the best that was available in CMNT and U-20 terms when the TFC roster was being assembled given the way other players were either under contract, were looking for too much money or were simply not interested in returning from Europe. I don't see how the quota could possibly work in the short to medium term (given the fact that 8 Canadian domestic players were going to be required on the senior roster under the old setup when the 2 extra YIs that came with expansion were phased out after the 2008 season unless trades could be made for additional YI roster spots) if players with significant recent CMNT involvement like Reda and Braz can't cut it. The only Canadian players that Mo could have easily had in the expansion draft but effectively passed on are Adrian Serioux and Andy Williams (from Toronto even if he plays for Jamaica). Making the trade for Ronnie O'Brien after selecting Serioux was a no brainer, in my opinion. It was no accident that the goals dried up after O'Brien's injury. What the season would have been like without him all the way through doesn't bear thinking about and TFC appear to have been aware of Serioux's injury problem that kept him out for a sizable portion of the season when the trade was made. Selecting Jason Kreis rather than Andy Williams also worked out quite well for TFC in terms of acquiring a sizable amount of allocation money from RSL when they made the trade to get him back so it is hard to criticize the rationale behind it, in my opinion, given Williams has always been a journeyman player at best in MLS terms. Would be different if it had been Richie Kotschau that was involved. Losing out on Kevin Harmse to another MLS team may have been down to Frank Yallop having a discovery claim in on him before TFC could even do anything so I'd like to know more details on that before assuming it was a mistake on TFC's part. MLS teams don't get to compete for players in that situation. The first team to file the discovery claim are the ones who are able to get the league to negotiate a contract on their behalf. Can't say I was hugely impressed by the guy anyway when he played at BMO Field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 quote:Originally posted by VPjr BBTB Nana (is he still with the team?). As far as I know, Yes. He was very active and visible at the latest pub crawls. Many of us had a chance to talk to him at the Richmond hill pub crawl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard Occean is under contract with Lillestrom until 2010 and is making very good money there by all accounts so there are definitely reasons why he would be difficult to attract back that go well beyond what Mo Johnston's assessment of him may be. Given what happened with Marco Reda (who to most observers beyond this board was no better than a developmental player this past summer) is it really totally ridiculous to suggest that a player who has been able to play a few seasons in one of the top divisions in Scandinavia could be "no better than a developmental player" in an MLS context? If the MLS dev players are capable of scoring like Occean has been doing in Norway (for a cup-winning/UEFA participating team), I would wonder why they are dev players and not on the first team roster for these MLS teams. Regardless, having actually seen him play & being quite familiar with the MLS (who initially drafted Occean years ago) I think it's quite obvious he's not at the MLS dev. roster level. You keep bringing up Marco Reda as proof that Scandinavian-based players can't cut it in the MLS but the fact is he wasn't playing top flight football in Norway when TFC signed him (and never played for a club as large or strong as Lillestrom), which I think is more important than the form he demonstrated a number of years ago. And the flipside of the Marco Reda example is Chris Pozniak, who was playing in the 2nd (and prior to that, 3rd) tier in Norway and yet showed he was good enough to belong in the MLS. I think it shows that it is dangerous to draw too many conclusions based on level of play when comparing different players - it makes more sense simply to judge the player on their own merit. Some players will raise their games when faced with a new level, others won't. But that's up to the individual, and the manager signing the player to judge whether they have the raw talent & soccer brains to play in the MLS. The amount of money Mo threw at Andy Welsh, who had so little of the latter, to come here makes me somewhat skeptical of Mo's ability to judge that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Free kick As far as I know, Yes. He was very active and visible at the latest pub crawls. Many of us had a chance to talk to him at the Richmond hill pub crawl. Thanks Free Kick....I have high hopes for Nana. BTW, is Stama part of the team in 2008 or what? He's been front and center at several of the personal appearance events (he was at Center Sports signing Jerseys and posters this past week along with Robbo and Lombardo). I had written him off as gone but now I'm wondering if the whole story is not being told. Why would they make Stama so visible if he wont be with the team in 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag futbol Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 I like Occean as a player and think he'd be good for TFC, but let's be realistic here. He's earning the equivalent of 240k USD a year plus bonus, key part: gauranteed five year deal. On those terms he'd have the best non-dp contract in MLS and have terms completely uncommon to everyone else. On top of that TFC would have to compensate RBNY which owns his rights, just so he could come back to the league. That makes it totally unrealistic that he'd ever play here. Mo Johnston being a hack in this case is a moot point, because the economics just don't make sense. The message sent is definately that Mojo is crazy, but you can't blame him for not putting Occean on the roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redhat Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 quote:Originally posted by ag futbol I like Occean as a player and think he'd be good for TFC, but let's be realistic here. He's earning the equivalent of 240k USD a year plus bonus, key part: gauranteed five year deal. On those terms he'd have the best non-dp contract in MLS and have terms completely uncommon to everyone else. On top of that TFC would have to compensate RBNY which owns his rights, just so he could come back to the league. That makes it totally unrealistic that he'd ever play here. Carl Robinson makes about $330-350K, according to published MLS salaries. Dwayne De Rosario makes less at about $175K per year. You mean to say Occean is not worth Carl Robinson's salary? What about Ali Gerba? The truth is, rightly or wrongly, MJ would rather overpay foreign players that underperform, even at the MLS level. He would rather overlook Adrian Serioux, Ante Jazic, Kevin Harmse, and a few Canadians playing in Europe. But an ineffective Tyrone Marshall, or an unfit Colin Samuel would be ideal for TFC, right? That said for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag futbol Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 Carl Robinson is making 300k for two years. That's far less than 240k a year gauranteed for 5 years plus bonus. Point stands. Marco Reda was overpaid, Adam Braz was overpaid, Andy Welsh was overpaid, Carl Robinson is overpaid. The overapayment has nothing to do with being Canadian or not, it's just because Mo Johnston can't peg a proper value to anyone. The point of my discussion is confined to Oliver Occean, and why he's not playing for TFC. I'm not talking about Ali Gerba, although maybe someone else could come it and provide the details about how much money he wanted, because that was reported as the deal breaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 quote:Originally posted by VPjr Thanks Free Kick....I have high hopes for Nana. BTW, is Stama part of the team in 2008 or what? He's been front and center at several of the personal appearance events (he was at Center Sports signing Jerseys and posters this past week along with Robbo and Lombardo). I had written him off as gone but now I'm wondering if the whole story is not being told. Why would they make Stama so visible if he wont be with the team in 2008 Near the end of the season, Mo said that he would like to get Nana some PT with the full squad, but he was hurt and couldn't get in. In the Fan590 interview on Thursday, Anselmi said that Sutton was getting better and looked forward to the solid 1-2 punch he and Kenny would be next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 quote:Originally posted by redhat Carl Robinson makes about $330-350K, according to published MLS salaries. Dwayne De Rosario makes less at about $175K per year. Just want to clear up that misconception. De Ro makes $325k according to the MLS Players Union: http://www.mlsplayers.org/files/8_31_07_salary_info_alpha.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmynow Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 quote:Originally posted by redhat The truth is, rightly or wrongly, MJ would rather overpay foreign players that underperform, even at the MLS level. He would rather overlook Adrian Serioux, Ante Jazic, Kevin Harmse, and a few Canadians playing in Europe. But an ineffective Tyrone Marshall, or an unfit Colin Samuel would be ideal for TFC, right? That said for me. it's not "truth" that he wants to overpay. nobody "wants" to overpay for players. Neither would he "rather overlook" Canadians. Nice attempt at spin though. you should work for Dubya. In reality, getting these players and getting them at good prices is more complex than is expressed in this thread. Mo Johnson is not the only factor in whether a player will come here. The competitive market overseas + the salary cap in MLS are big factors. Also, I do not consider Tyrone Marshall "ineffective". He did a nice job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 ^There are some posters here who display a very simplistic understanding of the ways of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Free kick As far as I know, Yes. He was very active and visible at the latest pub crawls. Many of us had a chance to talk to him at the Richmond hill pub crawl. The roster has been updated on the TFC website so the information on who made it past the recent waiver draft is readily available:- http://toronto.fc.mlsnet.com/players/roster.jsp?club=t280 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca If the MLS dev players are capable of scoring like Occean has been doing in Norway (for a cup-winning/UEFA participating team), I would wonder why they are dev players and not on the first team roster for these MLS teams. The United States only had 12 top tier teams for a population of over 300 million when Mo made that comment while Norway has 14 top tier teams for a population of 4 million so there is no reason to believe that the quality of the top level teams in the two countries is directly comparable. People on this board have always built up Scandinavian soccer into more than it really is, in my opinion. A few years back Reda's latest performances for Sogndal and Aalborg were being described breathlessly on here and there were lots of call for him to be included in the CMNT from more than just Luis Rancagua. Excuse me if I don't instantly buy into the hype on Occean or Gerba based on them playing at a similar sort of level. "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" sums up my feelings on that quite well. Neither particularly stood out in the Costa Rica game as far as I was concerned so I'm willing to concede that Mo Johnston's assessment may well be accurate. He has no emotional involvement in this based on them being Canadian and can look at things more objectively than many of the people on this board can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 BBTB, you're letting Reda's poor TFC season cloud your judgement on this one. The levels between MLS and top tier Scandinavia are very similar. You seem to have summarily judged the entire Scandinavian system based on the poor play of Reda for TFC, who was playing second tier in Norway before coming to Toronto and has just come off two lengthy injuries over the last few years (injuries that I think permanently affected his playing level, based on what I saw of him before). Just as you don't want people to over-estimate players currently in Scandinavia, I feel that you generally under-estimate them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 I'm basing it on a lot more than Marco Reda, Rudi. I grew up watching a national league in Scotland that tends to be marginally more highly rated in European terms than the Scandinavian leagues so I think I have a pretty good feel for how MLS teams would fit in once you move beyond the big 5 leagues in a European context. MLS is a very good standard in terms of the level a player needs to be at to start regularly even if the money a lot of them make is nothing particularly spectacular. Players like Andy Welsh and Collin Samuel found that out very quickly in addition to Marco Reda. Winding this back to the original subject matter the reason TFC needs more access to American players is because that is where a huge portion of the players who are both good enough and willing to play in MLS for the money that is on offer are located. Having access to the Canadian playing pool instead turned out to be a significant handicap rather than a competitive advantage. Long term I hope they move to a situation where Americans and Canadians count as domestic content throughout the league. Judging by what Don Garber told Gerry Dobson recently there will have to be a second Canadian franchise before it will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 If OO really was a dev. player in the MLS, a lot of the MLS dev. strikers would be looking to move to Scandinavia to make the easy money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 Some American players avoid MLS altogether and do try that route instead. Ever heard of Cam Weaver or Heath Pearce, for example? As someone who is currently working overseas I can understand why more don't and why MLS can usually get away with paying so little to players graduating from the NCAA system. Not easy being in a country where you don't speak the language and don't know anybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearcatSA Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard Some American players avoid MLS altogether and do try that route instead. Ever heard of Cam Weaver or Heath Pearce, for example? As someone who is currently working overseas I can understand why more don't and why MLS can usually get away with paying so little to players graduating from the NCAA system. Not easy being in a country where you don't speak the language and don't know anybody. Is that the guy who said he should be playing ahead of Bornstein at left back for the USMNT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 Think I remember reading about that. He is definitely a left back. Another prime recent example of a young American player taking the money in Scandinavia rather than going to MLS would be Charlie Davies:- http://www.yanks-abroad.com/get.php?mode=players&id=128 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Ault Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 One more American leaving MLS: Troy Perkins goalkeeper with DC United with 29 starts (16 wins, 8 shut-outs) this season has signed a five year deal with Vålerenga I.F. of the Tippeligaen (Norwegian Premier League). He leaves MLS with 77 career starts, 19 shut-outs and a 1.22 GAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 quote:Originally posted by ag futbol Carl Robinson is making 300k for two years. That's far less than 240k a year gauranteed for 5 years plus bonus. Point stands. Robinson is making $300 000 per year and is TFC's highest paid player. He would be a good deal at $150 000 but is overpaid at $300 000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard A few years back Reda's latest performances for Sogndal and Aalborg were being described breathlessly on here and there were lots of call for him to be included in the CMNT from more than just Luis Rancagua. Once again, Reda's form from a few years ago & Reda's current form are not necessarily the same thing. When people were calling for him to be given a chance with the national team he was performing much better at the club level. Players are human - their form can improve or worsen over a career. quote: Neither particularly stood out in the Costa Rica game as far as I was concerned so I'm willing to concede that Mo Johnston's assessment may well be accurate. He has no emotional involvement in this based on them being Canadian and can look at things more objectively than many of the people on this board can. I suppose it was only a matter of time before the "lack of objectivity" claims came from you in this thread. It's not a debating tactic I am a particular fan of, as the fact is everyone has their own biases and subjective opinions - no one is above it, even if some are more affected by others. We're all human, not machines, and gaging talent is not an exact science. This applies equally to Mo Johnston as much as anyone else - all of his import signings for 2007 were players who either are from the UK or have played there. With the exception of Dichio, he has over-rated all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 Abbe Ibrahim and Jose Cancela? He has also had players from Colombia, South Africa, Jamaica, Portugal, Brazil and Mexico in on trial as far as I'm aware. You can talk about debating tactics if you like but I have much the same opinion about a lot of the opinions I read about Mo Edu and Marvel Wynne's future Premiership prospects on the RPB board and have said so on there. In my opinion, people getting a bit carried away about how good some of the players are on the team(s) they support is a general phenomenon across all of soccer. I'd also point out that the phrase "I'm willing to concede that Mo Johnston's assessment may well be accurate" is not quite the same as agreeing with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 Players that are already in MLS can hardly be termed "import signings", so I don't think the label applies to Ibrahim and Cancela. It's not as if they were unknown quantities in MLS circles before this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 Players that are already in MLS can hardly be termed "import signings", so I don't think the label applies to Ibrahim and Cancela. It's not as if they were unknown quantities in MLS circles before this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 This thread revolves around a debate as to whether a roster regulation setup should continue to apply in which TFC has to use a sizable quota of Canadian players in senior roster terms. As non-Canadians Abbe Ibrahim and Jose Cancela were clearly imports and even if you want to play a game with semantics on that all that was traded for with RBNY in the case of Abbe Ibrahim was his MLS rights, which RBNY retained when he was placed on waivers. He had ceased to be an MLS player and was back in Togo when Mo Johnston contacted him about attending the TFC training camp. Fact is that a Togolese and a Uruguayan player were on the roster initially so it is simply not accurate to claim that Mo Johnston was only interested in British and American players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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