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MLS rules benefit Toronto FC


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quote:Originally posted by Richard

As an established club with an established fan base Man U. could afford to invest in a few younger players who needed another year or two to mature. The situation for TFC is quite the opposite, and I have yet to be convinced that if TFC continued to play poor soccer and lose 90% and of their games they would still sell out BMO Field game after game, season after season. Clearly that's a risk neither MLS nor MLSE is willing to take either. They are in business to make money for their shareholders, developing Canadian talent is low on the priority list.

But the very fact that they are an established club means that there are/were expectations to win. And the club still took a chance on young, homegrown kids and rode the bumps for a short period before they were repaid. I would cite Arsenal as another example of this, but they've decided to use foreign youngsters as opposed to local boys.

BBTB, i would not call Canizalez a "complete bust". If Mo had a little more tactical sense he would never have used an offensive flank player that would be exposed defensively in his original 3-5-2 system. When Miguel was given a chance later in the year he showed that he could have been a serviceable backup for that left mid spot if Mo had kept him on the team.

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Canizales was the one who ended the "ALL-TIME MLS RECORD" goal drought. Only Danny Dichio and Jeff Cunningham had a better goals/minutes played number. I could apply the 'complete bust' tag to a few others before I put that label on Miguel.

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quote:Originally posted by Rudi

One would argue that coddling young Canadians would be just as bad for their development.

The cream will rise to the top. The difference is, that now they have a chance to do it at home. They still have to earn their spots. This is what drives every other club in the world, and the countries get the by-product (development) of that.

I'm in the middle in that I want Canadians to be developed by TFC, but as a season ticket holder I also want results.

Yup. Thats where I sit too. To coddle ( in your words ) young canadians would IMO be doing a disservice to canadian soccer deveopment. You need a situation when canadian are given a break through rules or quotas but at the same doesn't foster complacency. You cant keep around forever a young canadian player just because he's Canadian. But you cant take away that initial break or opportunity that the rules afford them. But the benefit to them is playing and training along side the highest possible and striving to match or improve on those skills. This is something that would never happen in in something like the old CSL or some other similar league that only Tony Waiters seesm to think benefits Canadian soccer.

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I don't know where everyone is reading into Canizales being a servicable player but that's certainly not what the majority of people saw when they watched him for a season. If we're going to go Canadian content at that position we might as well promote Gabe Gala to the regular roster. He performed better and is much younger.

Getting run out of the park against NE wasn't the only time he struggled to prove his worth.

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quote:Originally posted by ag futbol

I don't know where everyone is reading into Canizales being a servicable player but that's certainly not what the majority of people saw when they watched him for a season. If we're going to go Canadian content at that position we might as well promote Gabe Gala to the regular roster. He performed better and is much younger.

Getting run out of the park against NE wasn't the only time he struggled to prove his worth.

Canizales was a million times better than Welsh, who seemed to have every chance in the world to prove himself.

Mo has an anti-Canadian bias that makes him stupid.

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quote:Originally posted by ag futbol

I don't know where everyone is reading into Canizales being a servicable player but that's certainly not what the majority of people saw when they watched him for a season. If we're going to go Canadian content at that position we might as well promote Gabe Gala to the regular roster. He performed better and is much younger.

Getting run out of the park against NE wasn't the only time he struggled to prove his worth.

Christ, he had only 414 minutes played, 3 starts, 12 appearances in the whole season. That's less than 5 complete games. Eskandarian, who had a cup of coffee in Toronto, saw more p/t than Miguel. I thought he was worth keeping as a work in progress. I'd rather see him struggle at times than watch Bowens give up yet another goal.

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I have to agree about Canizalez. While he never shone, I don't see any reason to not give him another shot in 2008. To me, he's the kind of player I'd like to see on TFC -- players who didn't make it big in Europe but are still young and talented enough that have an upside. How many Canucks have come back from Europe after a few unremarkable years and retire from pro soccer at 22-23? I can think of quite a few. Some of those guys could've rebuilt their careers in MLS and played a lot more years of pro either with MLS or back in Europe.

Jason

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quote:Originally posted by Ed

Christ, he had only 414 minutes played, 3 starts, 12 appearances in the whole season. That's less than 5 complete games.....

What you neglect to consider is that Canizalez got plenty of playing time in reserve games several of which I watched. Along with Braz and Reda he really didn't stand out in these games. The reality is that Mo Johnston was not hesitant about benching and/or subbing off Andy Welsh if he thought there was a better alternative. The fact that it was eventually a 17 year old in the shape of Gabe Gala who benefited from that as opposed to Miguel Canizalez says all that needs to be said about the situation.

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BBTB is right...i saw 2 reserve matches. Canizalez was far from a standout. he's too slow and not strong enough on the ball. He gave up the ball too cheaply (so did Welsh and now he's back in England coming off the bench for a mediocre/bad team). MLS is a decent league. Canizalez is simply not cut out for MLS. I'd like to see how he would do in USL1. Pace is a bit slower, but not much.

TFC should give opportunities to Canadians with talent and promise. Gala, Hemmings, Lombardo, Melo and Nana (is he still with the team?). They need to find and develop their own young Canadians who will pressure the young Canadians currently on the roster. Their Academy will hopefully help.

talking about the academy, has anyone seen this link. I just noticed it on the TFC website.

http://toronto.fc.mlsnet.com/t280/youth/academy/

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quote:Originally posted by Jason

I have to agree about Canizalez. While he never shone, I don't see any reason to not give him another shot in 2008. To me, he's the kind of player I'd like to see on TFC -- players who didn't make it big in Europe but are still young and talented enough that have an upside. How many Canucks have come back from Europe after a few unremarkable years and retire from pro soccer at 22-23? I can think of quite a few. Some of those guys could've rebuilt their careers in MLS and played a lot more years of pro either with MLS or back in Europe.

Jason

You assume that MLS is a lower level of play than some of the Euro leagues that these guys are leaving. MLS is a pretty decent league, likely on par or better than several Euro premier divisions. And the league is only going to get better (although that's mostly because they will be able to bring in a few more imports).

I saw enough of Canizalez to conclude he's not cut out for MLS. Maybe he can catch on in the Luxembourg 2nd division or the Swiss 3rd division

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quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

If Reda, Braz and Canizalez hadn't been complete busts and had not got guaranteed deals for the entire first season to entice them back from Europe then making a trade for a non-Canadian keeper would not have been a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. The way Mo Johnston was able to salvage the situation, temporarily at least, when fringe CMNT players like that turned out to be nowhere near MLS calibre was impressive and is what got him an extended contract. But for an excessive injury list there is a very real possibility that TFC could have made the playoffs in year one.

The only bust of the three was Reda because he is the only one of the three who had ever had success at a level equivalent to MLS. Even in his case he is no longer young and had last played in the Norwegian 2nd division. Braz like Sutton was a player a division lower than MLS who showed potential to move up a division. Players show potential to move up a division but fail all the time so I don't think it is that much of a surprise that Sutton and Braz disappointed. I thought he would do better as well but am not surprised that he didn't. He also didn't do that well in his one year in the Swedish 1st division. Canizales is a complete success story for TFC in my opinion when one looks at his playing history. This guy played most of his career in the German 4th division so the fact that Toronto got some use out of him at all is far more than could be exected. I am not saying he is a good MLS player, only he was better than could be expected when TFC signed him.

There was always going to be some difficulty in signing Canadian players for the first year. The problem though is that Mo never took the Canadian quota very seriously and never valued having quality Canadian players. He traded Serioux and signed a number of cheap unproven players. In any league with a quota system players that fit in the quota will be a bit more expensive than foreigners. Yet Mo consistently was willing to overpay for foreigners and unwilling to overpay for Canadians. The only Canadian he even slightly opened up the purse for was Brennan and it is not surprising that Brennan was the guy who performed well. Mo didn't take the rules seriously, didn't deal with them properly and then blamed them for his failures and managed to get them changed. If there are five Canadians starting on US MLS teams it can't be that impossible for Mo to get at least two Canadian starters like both Houston and LA. The real problem was Mo failed to deal with the quota rules properly and tried to get Canadians on the cheap.

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You appear to me to be engaged in an exercise in historical revisionism on this to a certain extent. Marco Reda has played regularly in both the Norwegian and Danish top divisions in the past for Sogndal and Aalborg and has played for Canada 6 times since 2005. Canizalez may have arrived just after he had played for an obscure Oberliga club in Bremen for a few months but he was on the books of Werder Bremen and Hannover 96 for a number of seasons immediately prior to that, who are both very famous big city clubs in a German context with a strong Bundesliga level pedigree, and even managed to accumulate 5 full international caps under Holger Osieck.

If the Canadian talent pool is currently as deep as some of you guys think then players like Reda, Braz (who let's not forget has played for Canada 11 times in recent seasons) and Canizalez are exactly the type of player who have to be able to step in and perform if the quota rules that were in place for the first season are going to work in the short to medium term until TFC's youth academy starts to be fully functional. MLS's salary cap makes it very difficult to attract the likes of Hume, McKenna, Friend, Bernier, Klukowski and Occean back from Europe after all.

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quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

You appear to me to be engaged in an exercise in historical revisionism on this to a certain extent. Marco Reda has played regularly in both the Norwegian and Danish top divisions in the past for Sogndal and Aalborg and has played for Canada 6 times since 2005. Canizalez may have arrived just after he had played for an obscure Oberliga club in Bremen for a few months but he was on the books of Werder Bremen and Hannover 96 for a number of seasons immediately prior to that, who are both very famous big city clubs in a German context with a strong Bundesliga level pedigree, and even managed to accumulate 5 full international caps under Holger Osieck.

If the Canadian talent pool is currently as deep as some of you guys think then players like Reda, Braz (who let's not forget has played for Canada 11 times in recent seasons) and Canizalez are exactly the type of player who have to be able to step in and perform if the quota rules that were in place for the first season are going to work in the short to medium term until TFC's youth academy starts to be fully functional. MLS's salary cap makes it very difficult to attract the likes of Hume, McKenna, Friend, Bernier, Klukowski and Occean back from Europe after all.

There is no revision at all. As I said Reda and of the three only Reda had success at a level similar to MLS, ie. Norwegian 1st division. He was successful in Norway but less so in Denmark partly due to injuries (possibly he never recovered his form after these injuries). His last club before joining TFC was a 2nd division Norwegian club. His last good year in a European 1st division was 2004.

Now if you are such an expert on the history of these players, please inform me how many games Canizales played with the 1st team of either Werder Bremen or Hannover 96? I would also like to know what leagues he was playing in Germany when he was with Werder Bremen and Hannover 96 and also how well he performed? After you inform yourself about this you can tell me whether he was a bust or in fact played better than could be expected.

Braz was a guy who had potential but was still a gamble as he had never been successful at a higher level than USL. The problem with Mo was he just assumed that both Braz and Sutton could successfully make the jump from USL to MLS and this proved to be a faulty assumption.

Noone said that it was easy to fill the Canadian quota requirement with quality players. That is indeed the reason that Mo should have made a more serious effort to find quality Canadian players instead of trying to do things on the cheap with unproven players. The most he paid a Canadian player was $150 000 for JB who not surprisingly was the best Canadian player on the team and probably the best player on the team overall. If he was going to overpay a mediocre 2nd tier player maybe it should have been a Canadian player instead of a Welsh one or British one. Robinson was decent but not worth $300 000 and I do not have to even mention how Andy Welsh performed. I think if Mo were offering certain Canadian players $300 000 and $200 0000 salaries the quality of Canadian players available to him would have improved.

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As I said before, I have very little problem with these decisions. Canizalez never did impress. Even after his goal against Colobus he did nothing for the rest of the game. Gala and Melo have speed, skill and are much younger. Melo also looks stronger on the ball. In the two reserve games I saw, Melo stood out as a talented player.

Braz played well in a few games (he was a standout in the Galaxy game) but often looked overmatched and slow. Too bad, but can't really argue with the decision. Hemming looked great in the games he played.

Hate to lose Poz, however.

Hopefully, some other Canadians get the chance to replace these guys.

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I saw Canizalez play in a number of reserve matches too, but i'm certainly not going to place too much emphasis on reserve games. I'd rather grade him on the real thing and like him or not, Canizalez wasn't a "complete bust". Was he the answer for the full 90? Nope, but i wouldn't concede defeat if he was trotted out in the last 15 minutes when we're down a goal.

I have no problem with Gabe Gala or Joey Melo outstripping Canizalez in the long haul, these are exactly the types of players that should be promoted at the expense of foreign journeyman. Does that mean dumping Ronnie O'Brien or Todd Dunivant? No, not right away, but in the next few years i'd like to see these kids given a chance with regular PT.

Again, as for coddling the draft picks coming in, let's give them as much of a chance as we do the foreign guys. Guys, like Andy Boyens who will get a lifeline with the rule changes, and because he's a young CB who was a 1st rounder and Mo sees potential in him.

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In terms of Occean, it should be mentioned that the problem isn't that of TFC not being able to afford him but Mo simply not rating him. There was a reliable report on the usector board from Ryan Keay that Mo apparently said that Occean was "no better than a developmental player" which would be a totally ridiculous assessment, if that's what he said. Apparently he also does not think much of Gerba, who is now available, but who I expect has a better chance of signing with San Jose than TFC.

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quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

Canizales was a million times better than Welsh, who seemed to have every chance in the world to prove himself.

Mo has an anti-Canadian bias that makes him stupid.

Let's be fair. I despise Andy Welsh, but he certainly proved more than Canizales. He could at least get to the corner before the flubbed in a worthless cross or got shielded off the ball, Canizales couldn't even get that far.

I don't agree with the amout of slack that was given to Welsh, but that doesn't mean i want to see the same thing with another player of questionable quality. There simply wasn't enough there to warant time on the field.

If we're going to develop players it's about working guys like Melo and Gala into a a system. There is no point of wasting time on MC2.

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quote:Originally posted by jpg75

I saw Canizalez play in a number of reserve matches too, but i'm certainly not going to place too much emphasis on reserve games. I'd rather grade him on the real thing and like him or not, Canizalez wasn't a "complete bust". Was he the answer for the full 90? Nope, but i wouldn't concede defeat if he was trotted out in the last 15 minutes when we're down a goal.

I have no problem with Gabe Gala or Joey Melo outstripping Canizalez in the long haul, these are exactly the types of players that should be promoted at the expense of foreign journeyman.

Agreed on all counts. The kid certainly has skill, his problem was inconsistency. But he was a Canadian who could certainly be upgraded by another Canadian signing - but we won't have to bother in the next two seasons.

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The issue in the Canizalez case is less how he performed but more what could be expected from him.

This is a guy who spent a little bit of his career playing at about USL level (German 3rd division with Werder Bremen reserve team - if I remember correctly he was not even a steady starter) and most of his career playing at below USL level in the German 4th division. He was earning $36 000 with TFC. I think he was a good signing since he must have some talent if Werder Bremen and Hannover signed him even if it was unrealized. It was worthwhile taking a flyer on him and seeing if you might luck out with the 1 in 10 chance that he is a late developer or just needed a different atmosphere. However, if this is the type of player you are expecting to fill your Canadian content on your starting 11 don't start bitching when it doesn't work out. Considering Canizalez playing history and the salary he was making, I think he exceeded what could be expected. He may not have been the calibre of player TFC needed at his position but he never looked out of place at the MLS level either which is more than I can say about several other players many earning much more money than he was. I don't have a problem with him being released but I do have a problem with getting rid of Poz and Serioux and not making a serious effort to sign good Canadian players.

Instead of getting a couple of proven Canadian players in the mold of Brennan, Mo spent most of his money on unproven Canadians and mediocre foreigners. Although he wasn't the only overpaid player on the team, did Mo really have to pay Sutton $125 000 to leave the USL? I also have a strong suspicion that if Braz, for example, returns to the Impact and is playing for a coach who believes in him, we might see some stronger performances from Braz at the MLS level if the Impact join this league. As everyone knows I am not the biggest fan of Yallop (though he may be fine as a club coach) but I think it is not surprising that he takes two Canadians both of whom there were doubts about and they both performed well for him. Jazic had played at a high level for many years but was coming off a serious injury and had not played in a while. Sounds a bit like Reda. Harmse was a young player who had done well in USL but who had also never proved himself at a higher level. Sounds like several TFC players. Yet Yallop despite not having any Canadian quota at all to respect manages to go 2 for 2 while Mo's success rate was considerably lower.

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I can't believe there are people out their willing to stand up for Adam Braz, one of the worst performers on TFC, period. He absolutely has no place in the league and anywhere outside of this board you'd find that as a consensus.

Sure you can't exactly call Canizales a bust on 35k a year, but he didn't do anything to deserve to come back. He was a fringe player on a last place team. It's only natural that part of the roster is going to turn over. If he put on the same performances for Canada I doubt any of you would be arguing we should be springing him more time to show what he has. He did nothing exceptional with the limited chances he had, so he didn't get any future opportunities. The youth are going to take his spot because frankly they showed more in the limited time they had.

All this sobbing about cutting the last players on the depth chart.

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quote:Originally posted by ag futbol

I can't believe there are people out their willing to stand up for Adam Braz, one of the worst performers on TFC, period. He absolutely has no place in the league and anywhere outside of this board you'd find that as a consensus.

Sure you can't exactly call Canizales a bust on 35k a year, but he didn't do anything to deserve to come back. He was a fringe player on a last place team. It's only natural that part of the roster is going to turn over. If he put on the same performances for Canada I doubt any of you would be arguing we should be springing him more time to show what he has. He did nothing exceptional with the limited chances he had, so he didn't get any future opportunities. The youth are going to take his spot because frankly they showed more in the limited time they had.

All this sobbing about cutting the last players on the depth chart.

This is not the issue at all. The issue is whether Mo did a good job in signing Canadian talent and I think he clearly did not. He should have gotten better players than Canizalez and Braz in the first place and viewed those players as risk signings that may or may not pan out. If Mo had done a good job of dealing with the Canadian quota there would have been no need to eliminate it. I think with the rules as they were last year he only had to play two Canadians per game so it is not like the rules were very restrictive.

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For all the bashing Braz has taken, some of it deserved, he was effective at times and even Mo praised him on occasion (unlike Reda & Canizalez). I still think Braz would be more effective as a centre-back (the position he grew up playing), since his lack of speed would be less of an issue there. Instead Mo put Braz in midfield a few times and tried out Robinson as a CB as well, moves which still boggle the mind.

There's been a lot of talk about Canadian busts, but it draws attention away from the fact that for every Canadian bust there as a non-Canadian bust on TFC last year. In fact of the top four biggest busts salary wise, three of them were not Canadian (Welsh, Samuel & Marshall), and two of them are still on the roster. And with so many injuries, I think at least another year, if not more, should have happened under the current roster regulations before deciding whether they should be tightened or loosened. Instead it is like the MLS (and maybe MLSE) is panicking that unless they loosen up the roster quotas a bit the soccer-starving Toronto market will give up on the team if they don't win by their second year - a feeling I don't get at all from talking to fellow fans (hard-core or casual). This is Toronto after all, a market that loves the Leafs with an unstoppable passion over 40 years since they last won anything!

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quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

For all the bashing Braz has taken, some of it deserved, he was effective at times and even Mo praised him on occasion (unlike Reda & Canizalez). I still think Braz would be more effective as a centre-back (the position he grew up playing), since his lack of speed would be less of an issue there. Instead Mo put Braz in midfield a few times and tried out Robinson as a CB as well, moves which still boggle the mind.

There's been a lot of talk about Canadian busts, but it draws attention away from the fact that for every Canadian bust there as a non-Canadian bust on TFC last year. In fact of the top four biggest busts salary wise, three of them were not Canadian (Welsh, Samuel & Marshall), and two of them are still on the roster.

Agree 100%. Overpaid Canadians? Compare them with the overpaid,

underperforming players occupying an IMPORT spot.

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quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

This is not the issue at all. The issue is whether Mo did a good job in signing Canadian talent and I think he clearly did not. He should have gotten better players than Canizalez and Braz in the first place and viewed those players as risk signings that may or may not pan out. If Mo had done a good job of dealing with the Canadian quota there would have been no need to eliminate it. I think with the rules as they were last year he only had to play two Canadians per game so it is not like the rules were very restrictive.

I can agree with you on that 100%. Somebody should have been reaching out to players like David Simpson and Ali Gerba to come play for TFC. I guess this is what happens when you sign with the wrong agency.

I have nothing positive to say about Mo Johnston other than he gave the young kids on the development roster a decent chance to play a few games.

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quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

In terms of Occean, it should be mentioned that the problem isn't that of TFC not being able to afford him but Mo simply not rating him. There was a reliable report on the usector board from Ryan Keay that Mo apparently said that Occean was "no better than a developmental player" which would be a totally ridiculous assessment, if that's what he said. Apparently he also does not think much of Gerba, who is now available, but who I expect has a better chance of signing with San Jose than TFC.

Occean is under contract with Lillestrom until 2010 and is making very good money there by all accounts so there are definitely reasons why he would be difficult to attract back that go well beyond what Mo Johnston's assessment of him may be. Given what happened with Marco Reda (who to most observers beyond this board was no better than a developmental player this past summer) is it really totally ridiculous to suggest that a player who has been able to play a few seasons in one of the top divisions in Scandinavia could be "no better than a developmental player" in an MLS context? Surely some lessons have to be learned.

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