youllneverwalkalone Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Richard Or the Whitecaps who clearly have a jump start on TFC. I was naming the Ontario guys but, you're right, the residency club that went to Germany had players from all over the country and beyond. It will be interesting to see how these two clubs compete for youth signatures in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvroArrow Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 To a certain extent, player development and profit go hand in hand. Has soccer become more popular in the US due to the American's continuous qualification for the World Cup? Most likely. Has the increased popularity in soccer helped raise the profits of MLS? Most likely. Has the player development by the MLS greatly increased the US's chances of qualifying for the World Cup? Most likely. Lather, rinse, repeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SthMelbRed Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 Granted, I don't know the MLS model very well, with regards to player development, but I don't see the logic in a club like Toronto FC putting a lot of resources into youth development. If all the players are 'owned' by MLS and there is a draft of young players entering the league, where's the payoff for an individual club to develop homegrown talent? If an MLS club develops an exceptional talent through their academy, what guarantee is there that that player will automatically graduate into their senior team? Further, won't MLS take any potential profits to be gained by selling those players that turn out to be good enough on to European clubs? Again, I don't know the specifics of the model, but that's my reading of the 'single-entity' model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 When a player is sold by MLS to a European club the franchise involved now receives two thirds of the transfer fee to reinvest in the team in some manner. The plan appears to be that in future each MLS team will be able to exempt a player or two per season from their youth development system (will have to double check the exact number on that at some point) from going through the league entry draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard If there were a mechanism to ensure that the likes of Pat Onstad, Dwayne de Rosario, Andy Williams and Ante Jazic had no option but to play for TFC. I don't think anyone is suggesting something like that should be in place. Rather, I think there is a general irritation that TFC haven't done a better job in retaining Canadian talent & the result of that has been to reduce the quotas, a move that could be detrimental to the development of Canadian talent. You mention later on in your post Serioux, Pozniak & Harmse. The first two were both TFC property at one time while they let the third slip through their fingers completely. As such it's difficult to take Mo's complaints & the reasoning behind this move (even if temporary) too seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard When a player is sold by MLS to a European club the franchise involved now receives two thirds of the transfer fee to reinvest in the team in some manner. The plan appears to be that in future each MLS team will be able to exempt a player or two per season from their youth development system (will have to double check the exact number on that at some point) from going through the league entry draft. Correct, except the 2/3 figure must be spent on player acquisitions and not as the club sees fit. Also, a player must be in the academy for 2 years before they're eligible for exemption from the MLS draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 quote:Originally posted by JB_Tito If they good enough they will have chance to play,sorry but this is nothing different than in Europe.How many English players have MANU or Arsenal on their roster.It is in club interest to win and they don't care about NTs why should be here different.It sucks for Canadian talents to get the chance but that the life. If they're good enough they'll play? You're talking about kids in their early 20's, they make mistakes and their development needs to be viewed as long-term. Do you think Mo will be making decisions while looking down the road 3-5 years from now? No, he wants to win now! And that's what will stunt development of young Canadians. That golden generation of young ManU players became what they were because they were given a chance. They struggled a bit at first, but they learned and it made them stronger... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 Man U was not a brand new club when the golden generation hit and they were not facing a fan base of North Americans conditioned to expect instant gratification. Even some of the people in this forum were expecting TFC to make the playoffs in their very first season. No wonder MLSE are looking at their market and tailoring their business plan accordingly, I would do exactly the same in their shoes. Running a professional sports entertainment operation is a business and nobody can afford to forget that, least of all its owners. Woe betide any company that neglects to cater to its market as best it can. And to preempt any comeback, like any wise business operator MLSE/TFC is investing in its future through its academy program. But maybe the return on that investment is too far in the future to satisfy the typical instant gratification seeking North American fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvroArrow Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Richard Man U was not a brand new club when the golden generation hit and they were not facing a fan base of North Americans conditioned to expect instant gratification. Even some of the people in this forum were expecting TFC to make the playoffs in their very first season. No wonder MLSE are looking at their market and tailoring their business plan accordingly, I would do exactly the same in their shoes. Running a professional sports entertainment operation is a business and nobody can afford to forget that, least of all its owners. Woe betide any company that neglects to cater to its market as best it can. And to preempt any comeback, like any wise business operator MLSE/TFC is investing in its future through its academy program. So what you are saying is that a professional sports team should attempt to win as many games as possible while preparing young players to replace the teams current crop of good players? That's sport's management genius! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 Yes because that is the reality of TFC's situation. The nature of the North American market is such that if they don't field a team that wins 50% or more of its games most seasons they will alienate their fan base which in the main consists of fans looking for instant gratification. The reality is that apart from a few diehards such as yourself, most North American ticket buyers don't really care much about what passport the players have as long as the team can produce entertaining play and win. With the personnel TFC had in their first season they failed on both counts so change is needed. TFC is faced with a choice of either fielding a team now stacked with second rate Canadian nationals because the MLS salary cap et al prevents them from hiring the best Canadians and risk alienating their fans because they lose most of their games. Or they field the best team they can to meet the expectation of the instant gratification fans and they invest in developing their own Canadian talent in house. The sports entertainment business professionals running TFC who are accountable in the first instance to their shareholders, know full well what their choice must be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB_Tito Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 I can't see MLSE investing money in TFC just to develop Canadian soccer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 quote:Originally posted by jpg75 If they're good enough they'll play? You're talking about kids in their early 20's, they make mistakes and their development needs to be viewed as long-term. Do you think Mo will be making decisions while looking down the road 3-5 years from now? No, he wants to win now! And that's what will stunt development of young Canadians. One would argue that coddling young Canadians would be just as bad for their development. The cream will rise to the top. The difference is, that now they have a chance to do it at home. They still have to earn their spots. This is what drives every other club in the world, and the countries get the by-product (development) of that. I'm in the middle in that I want Canadians to be developed by TFC, but as a season ticket holder I also want results. Our problem is that we don't have enough high-level Canadian clubs. Eventually we'll have Montreal and Vancouver (in that order), but will that be enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Richard Man U was not a brand new club when the golden generation hit and they were not facing a fan base of North Americans conditioned to expect instant gratification. Even some of the people in this forum were expecting TFC to make the playoffs in their very first season. No wonder MLSE are looking at their market and tailoring their business plan accordingly, I would do exactly the same in their shoes. Running a professional sports entertainment operation is a business and nobody can afford to forget that, least of all its owners. Woe betide any company that neglects to cater to its market as best it can. And to preempt any comeback, like any wise business operator MLSE/TFC is investing in its future through its academy program. But maybe the return on that investment is too far in the future to satisfy the typical instant gratification seeking North American fan. ManU was a well established club, but yet they chose to give the youngsters a chance and it didn't seem to hurt their bottom line. As for TFC, well that lack of instant gratification sure didn't hurt the season ticket base now, did it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 Rudi, not looking for the Canadians to be coddled. Just hoping they get a fair chance and aren't shipped off by trader Mo after their first mistake so he can get his instant rocks off . Granted, he at times gave Gala, Melo, Monsalve, Hemming and Lombardo a look last year so there is hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redhat Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Rudi The cream will rise to the top. The difference is, that now they have a chance to do it at home. They still have to earn their spots. This is what drives every other club in the world, and the countries get the by-product (development) of that. I'm in the middle in that I want Canadians to be developed by TFC, but as a season ticket holder I also want results. I hear you Rudi, but the problem really is TFC player selection. Do the current roster of "foreigners" play the expected standard? Every time I see an Edson Buddle, Colin Samuel, Nagamura, and Boyens, I see quite a few non-Canadians playing below par. And with all the press reports, I just notice that Mo Johnston would point out the lack of good Canadians for the failure of TFC. If TFC Canadians are so bad, why did San Jose pick up Pozniak? Why would it be Lombardo, Canizales, or Melo's fault if Samuel, Buddle, or any other player couldn't score? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massive Attack Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 I hate Mo. Can't wait til he's fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca The reason the quotas are being loosened a bit (one extra spot & no YI/SI distinction) across the league is obviously the expansion. There aren't enough quality American players to adequately staff the 13 (and soon to be 14) US MLS teams to that high a degree. To suggest that there aren't enough quality Canadians to partially staff one Canadian team is ludicrous. Nice to live in that fantasy world of yours. You can try and argue that the rules are being loosened for expansion. yet you base it on the assumption that US temas will use it find foreign talent. In reality, MLS is still small enough that it will still find American players to fill their rosetr spots. The likely outcome is that most of those new foreign spots will go unfilled. Toronto FC will forever be seen as the real benefactor of the rule changes. It no longer has to be burdened by the need to hire Canadians. They can now go out and fill their positons with more Americans and internationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 quote:Originally posted by DoyleG Nice to live in that fantasy world of yours. You can try and argue that the rules are being loosened for expansion. yet you base it on the assumption that US temas will use it find foreign talent. In reality, MLS is still small enough that it will still find American players to fill their rosetr spots. The likely outcome is that most of those new foreign spots will go unfilled. Toronto FC will forever be seen as the real benefactor of the rule changes. It no longer has to be burdened by the need to hire Canadians. They can now go out and fill their positons with more Americans and internationals. WTF Doyle? Have you been reading the thread or any of Gian-luca's post on the matter? The argument you are trying make about TFC is reasonable enough, but I think Gian-luca is absolutely correct about the American talent issue. I don't see how giving NY Red Bull an additional SI has anything to do with Toronto. In any event, starting off in such an insulting maanner is hardly condusive to anything but a flame war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 quote:Originally posted by jpg75 ManU was a well established club, but yet they chose to give the youngsters a chance and it didn't seem to hurt their bottom line. As for TFC, well that lack of instant gratification sure didn't hurt the season ticket base now, did it? As an established club with an established fan base Man U. could afford to invest in a few younger players who needed another year or two to mature. The situation for TFC is quite the opposite, and I have yet to be convinced that if TFC continued to play poor soccer and lose 90% and of their games they would still sell out BMO Field game after game, season after season. Clearly that's a risk neither MLS nor MLSE is willing to take either. They are in business to make money for their shareholders, developing Canadian talent is low on the priority list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 quote:Originally posted by jpg75 Correct, except the 2/3 figure must be spent on player acquisitions and not as the club sees fit. Also, a player must be in the academy for 2 years before they're eligible for exemption from the MLS draft. Not necessarily on player acquistions. New England only got to use a limited portion of the cash they received that way from the Clint Dempsey transfer so that the competition within MLS would not be skewed. The rest has to be spent on improving the on field product somehow with an investment in something like a new training facility, their youth system etc quote:Originally posted by JB_Tito I can't see MLSE investing money in TFC just to develop Canadian soccer. I think you have a clear understanding of what drives the capitalist system, Josip. Maybe North American soccer needs to be run based on the principles of workers' self-management. quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca I don't think anyone is suggesting something like that should be in place. Rather, I think there is a general irritation that TFC haven't done a better job in retaining Canadian talent & the result of that has been to reduce the quotas, a move that could be detrimental to the development of Canadian talent. You mention later on in your post Serioux, Pozniak & Harmse. The first two were both TFC property at one time while they let the third slip through their fingers completely. As such it's difficult to take Mo's complaints & the reasoning behind this move (even if temporary) too seriously. I think what probably swung the argument in Mo Johnston's favour was the whole goalkeeping saga after Greg Sutton got injured. There needs to be a bit of depth to the pool of available players for things to work because otherwise players and clubs like Tromso wind up having too much leverage in salary and transfer negotiations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Gordon WTF Doyle? Have you been reading the thread or any of Gian-luca's post on the matter? The argument you are trying make about TFC is reasonable enough, but I think Gian-luca is absolutely correct about the American talent issue. I don't see how giving NY Red Bull an additional SI has anything to do with Toronto. In any event, starting off in such an insulting maanner is hardly condusive to anything but a flame war. Some people need a dose of reality. Not my fault that people can't take it. Anybody who reads between the lines knows that these rules were to benefit TFC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 quote: I think what probably swung the argument in Mo Johnston's favour was the whole goalkeeping saga after Greg Sutton got injured. There needs to be a bit of depth to the pool of available players for things to work because otherwise players and clubs like Tromso wind up having too much leverage in salary and transfer negotiations. He may have used this situation as an argument but this situation exactly shows where the problem lies. First of all there was no requirement that the keeper position be one of the designated Canadian positions but Mo apparently decided it would be regardless of how many quality Canadian keepers were available. Second, Mo hires a keeper in Sutton who was unproven at the MLS level and doesn't sign a backup with any MLS pedigree whatsoever. The result was a disappointing performance from Sutton (not entirely expected but certainly not surprising either) and noone to replace him first when he was underperforming and then afterwards when he got injured. I wrote extensive posts about this problem well before the first TFC game and stated that this very scenario was a distinct possibility. I don't claim to be a soccer genius or that I can see the future so how come a poster on a soccer forum (and I don't think I was the only one here who saw this possibility) can see the problem and Mo can not? Is he really that clueless? It seems to me the answer is yes particularly as you can take a variety of other situations and analyze them and come up with similar conclusions. Mo did a bad job managing talent/signings and an even worse job managing Canadian talent and possible signings. Then when the results of his errors became apparent he blamed the players that he himself had chosen, no scratch that not the underperforming foreign players but only the Canadian players, and blamed the "unfair" quota system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 If Reda, Braz and Canizalez hadn't been complete busts and had not got guaranteed deals for the entire first season to entice them back from Europe then making a trade for a non-Canadian keeper would not have been a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. The way Mo Johnston was able to salvage the situation, temporarily at least, when fringe CMNT players like that turned out to be nowhere near MLS calibre was impressive and is what got him an extended contract. But for an excessive injury list there is a very real possibility that TFC could have made the playoffs in year one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 If Reda, Braz and Canizalez hadn't been complete busts and had not got guaranteed deals for the entire first season to entice them back from Europe then making a trade for a non-Canadian keeper would not have been a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. The way Mo Johnston was able to salvage the situation, temporarily at least, when fringe CMNT players like that turned out to be nowhere near MLS calibre was impressive and is what got him an extended contract. But for an excessive injury list there is a very real possibility that TFC could have made the playoffs in year one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB_Tito Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard I think you have a clear understanding of what drives the capitalist system, Josip. Maybe North American soccer needs to be run based on the principles of workers' self-management. I'm more for dictatorship type of controlling the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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