youllneverwalkalone Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 quote:Originally posted by gwallace76 Sorry but reverse racism is still racism. Supply some concrete evidence against specific persons or STFU. These Xenophobic and racist generalizations need to stop. Rick provided concrete evidence of under-representation in his first post: Other than Stephen Hart (who I didn't even know was mixed race), there are no black people on that list of coaches and delegates that the CSA releases after all the black players are named. Grizzly fired back and said the times they are a changing. Like some southerner in the 60s. This is Canada in 2007 and the numbers don't lie: of the top 5 cap winners, 3 are black. The two white guys are coaches, the black guys *appear* not invited. You are not going to get more "concrete" evidence. I want to explain where I stand. I referenced the Di Canio thread to point out a trend of Grizzly minimizing racism toward black people, while exaggerating it's importance to others. In that thread, like this one, I'm taking a *position* that requires more than one level of thought as I'm trying to digest an opinion which comes from somebody with a much different perspective than myself. Life is not black and white and concrete evidence is hard to come by. So let me sum up: I don't think the CSA is necessarily racist because, amongst other things, I personally believe coaches should cut their teeth at the club level. To their credit, Watson and Dasovic have done this to some extent. Bunbury and Samuel have not, which suggests to me they are not really interested in coaching. With Hooper, there may be a case. He does have similar experience to Dasovic and Watson. I don't think Holger was racist. He was a hard ass, but I believe he was fair and gave an opportunity to more than one black kid to play a prominent role on the MNT. Did he go to Bunbury, Samuel, and Hooper and use his connections in Europe to help them get involved in coaching in the professional game? Obviously not. This is what I would have done but, to be fair, he didn't do this for any white guys either. Rick Titus disagrees with me as to the extent of this under-representation at the CSA. He says it's racist and if I was black I would probably feel that way too. I respect that. All he's asking is for the posters to look at the facts (no black guys at the CSA) and appreciate how that looks to him. If Rick feels Holger was racist, I'm completely willing to allow him his opinion without demanding a trial. Rick is our fellow Voyageur. He's openly admitted that he has no first hand experience with Holger so calling him out for libel and demand concrete evidence is far beyond the scope of what the guy has said. It's easy to disagree with him about Holger without holding court over the matter. We are all hard on each other as this thread shows, but this case is slightly different given the poster and the subject matter. And I would bet my left nut that neither Grizzly nor Geoff would have the stones to say any of this to his face. It seems to me that Grizzly and Wallace are, to quote Sir Alex, calling Rick a "Big-time Charlie." If you can't figure out what that means, go find a black friend and ask him to read this thread and sort it out for you. Cause we all have black friends, right my fellow Voyageurs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick titus Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 AvroArrow I agree with you totally! My point is lets be fair, and lets just qualify with the best team, the best admin, and the best outcome, period! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick titus Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 I am no big time charlie. I respect what you have to say whether you agree with me or not YNWA! At least we can both understand that all of or veiws are valid, and that we want something to change because right now the status quo is not working. Good luck to you all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest speedmonk42 Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Grizzly fired back and said the times they are a changing. Like some southerner in the 60s. This is Canada in 2007 and the numbers don't lie: of the top 5 cap winners, 3 are black. The two white guys are coaches, the black guys *appear* not invited. You are not going to get more "concrete" evidence. -------------------- This is not concrete evidence of anything. Ask them. Contact Alex Bundbury, and ask him. Find out what he has done to become a coach, or even if he wanted to. I don't know the answer, but those stats you keep repeating mean NOTHING. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 To Rick Titus, you should read what Grizzly told you and look under his profile to see who he is.... I would agree with Wallace and Grizzly here, you need evidences before calling people racist. What are your personnal experience with Holger that makes you say he's a racist? I'm curious about this. If it's only based on the fact that he never gave you a chance I would say it's hardly a serious evidence but if he made derogatory comments to you, I will start to give some credibility to this claim. The fact that Watson and Dasovic are from BC and have had the chance to get some coaching experience with USL sides (and serious organization) might have played a role in their coaching career development (BTW, Watson is still playing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 To Rick Titus, you should read what Grizzly told you and look under his profile to see who he is.... I would agree with Wallace and Grizzly here, you need evidences before calling people racist. What are your personnal experience with Holger that makes you say he's a racist? I'm curious about this. If it's only based on the fact that he never gave you a chance I would say it's hardly a serious evidence but if he made derogatory comments to you, I will start to give some credibility to this claim. The fact that Watson and Dasovic are from BC and have had the chance to get some coaching experience with USL sides (and serious organization) might have played a role in their coaching career development (BTW, Watson is still playing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 So let me get this straight. My starting eleven has Tam, Julian, Hutch, DeRo, Bernier, and maybe Occean. That is 6 out of 11 guys who are black or not white. This isn't a recent development. Canada has had lots of black players my entire life. That's why I mention Samuel, Bunbury, and Hooper. Yet no-one other than Stephen Hart on the CSA delegation list is, or has ever been, from my recollection of the senior team, black. Are you saying that isn't strange? Doesn't it look a little off? Edit: According to wiki, Bunbury is coaching in Minnesota. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 So let me get this straight. My starting eleven has Tam, Julian, Hutch, DeRo, Bernier, and maybe Occean. That is 6 out of 11 guys who are black or not white. This isn't a recent development. Canada has had lots of black players my entire life. That's why I mention Samuel, Bunbury, and Hooper. Yet no-one other than Stephen Hart on the CSA delegation list is, or has ever been, from my recollection of the senior team, black. Are you saying that isn't strange? Doesn't it look a little off? Edit: According to wiki, Bunbury is coaching in Minnesota. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick titus Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Hey loyola read my post, all of them, I told you I will not give proof on here, it is the wrong forum for that. Be good bro! Racism exists in the OSA and CSA, and even a little bit is too much! Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick titus Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Hey loyola read my post, all of them, I told you I will not give proof on here, it is the wrong forum for that. Be good bro! Racism exists in the OSA and CSA, and even a little bit is too much! Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone Yet no-one other than Stephen Hart on the CSA delegation list is, or has ever been, from my recollection of the senior team, black. Are you saying that isn't strange? Doesn't it look a little off? With that kind of logic, you could ask the same questions for a lot of NCAA basketball and football programs who never had a black coach but had thousands of black athletes. And you can apply it to a lot of others sports and clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick titus Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 That is a valid point loyola, and that is the problem. Fairnrss cannot exist in any institution unless every memeber of that institution is fair by nature, and we all know that is not the reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 quote:Originally posted by loyola With that kind of logic, you could ask the same questions for a lot of NCAA basketball and football programs who never had a black coach but had thousands of black athletes. Exactly. That's a serious topic which requires it's own thread. At least we're talking about Americans who we come to believe have much more institutional racism than Canada. But, truth be told, it looks like Canada could be worse because at least American admit the existence of racism. John Thompson was a coach at Georgetown before I was born. At least that's one example of the top of my head. Who is the Canadian example? Stephen Hart I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 quote:Originally posted by rick titus Hey loyola read my post, all of them, I told you I will not give proof on here, it is the wrong forum for that. Be good bro! Racism exists in the OSA and CSA, and even a little bit is too much! Regards. I respect your right to remain silent about this issue but you have to respect mine to question the way your making a serious claim about an individual without backing it with any kind of evidences. I'm no fan of Osieck but I need something more to think he was a racist. But you have no obligation to tell us your personnal experience, that's true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone Exactly. That's a serious topic which requires it's own thread. At least we're talking about Americans who we come to believe have much more institutional racism than Canada. But, truth be told, it looks like Canada could be worse because at least American admit the existence of racism. John Thompson was a coach at Georgetown before I was born. At least that's one example of the top of my head. Who is the Canadian example? Stephen Hart I guess. Make the proportion with all the ACC, Big East and Big Ten/Twelve coaches all over the years in football and Basketball and I'm pretty sure Stephen Hart is enough for the CSA to look like Amnesty International compare to those institutions. BTW, Rudy Doliscat has also been involve with our youth national teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 quote:Originally posted by loyola Make the proportion with all the ACC, Big East and Big Ten/Twelve coaches all over the years in football and Basketball and I'm pretty sure Stephen Hart is enough for the CSA to look like Amnesty International compare to those institutions. BTW, Rudy Doliscat has also been involve with our youth national teams. So the Black Coaches Association, who have their own f-ucking bowl game, have no members? Interesting theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 How about putting aside the race card in these discussions? Not the topic, but tossing at other posters. Rick, Holger selected Tam Nsaliwa at a very young age and used him in situations that a lot of coaches coddle young players and even declared him the "future" of Canadian soccer. Maybe a token, I suppose, or maybe Tam was just that good with that much potential that Holger couldn't ignore him, but on the surface this would seem contrary to your suggestion. Also, I only saw you play at the latter stages of your career. Of the centrebacks that Holger selected that I can recall, where would you rate yourself? The five I can think of were DeVos, Menezes, McKenna, Gervais and Pizzolitto. If you don't want to answer that question, fair enough. It does put you you on the spot. Maybe the other voyageurs would care to contemplate this in terms of the suggestions being made of Holger's prefences. The questions raised though about Bunbury, Samuel and Hooper are fair enough. Finally, this is the second thread where Grizzly is accused of hiding his identity. It is clearly posted in his profile, and some Voyageurs have met him at games. I don't always agree with him, although most often I do, but I certainly am confident I know who he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone So the Black Coaches Association, who have their own f-ucking bowl game, have no members? Interesting theory. My point was that using your logic you could easily claim that UNC is a racist institution due to the fact that they've had many black athletes but no black basketball coaches. The fact there's a Black coaches association has anythin to do with that. It's exterior to some of those institutions who've never hired a black guy in their history. BTW, I spoke about proportion, so of course I'm aware they are black coaches out there just like the CSA has currently two black coaches working for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 quote:Originally posted by loyola My point was that using your logic you could easily claim that UNC is a racist institution due to the fact that they've had many black athletes but no black basketball coaches. The fact there's a Black coaches association has anythin to do with that. It's exterior to some of those institutions who've never hired a black guy in their history. BTW, I spoke about proportion, so of course I'm aware they are black coaches out there just like the CSA has currently two black coaches working for them. You're not reading anything I've written. I'm not calling the CSA a racist organization. I said it wouldn't suprise me if someone said it was because, amongst other things, non-white people are grossly under-represented as coaches, delegates, trainers, etc. Two people is not enough to disprove this fact, given how many black footballers there are in Canada. The NCAA, like the US, has a long history of racial discrimination. But, unlike many of the Voyageurs, members have admitted that it could be a problem and have taken steps to address the issue such as forming the Black Coaches Association. Whether they are doing well or poorly, I'm not really sure. But to say that the CSA is doing a reasonable job at being a representative organization because the NCAA has no black coaches either makes no sense. Can you honestly say that the CSA is representative of Canada? What would be the harm in admitting it's not? Would our world cave in around us? Would we all have to go to confession for being racists? WTF is the problem here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest speedmonk42 Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Forum text problems aside. Lets think here. Communicating in this medium can suck a$$. I can quite confidently say Grizzly and others I have met from this forum are not anything like what is getting implied here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest speedmonk42 Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Can you honestly say that the CSA is representative of Canada? --------- Probably not. But it is also not a big organization. The problem may be more indicative of people sticking around too long and getting recycled. (may not is) So if you can change the % by double digits just by adding two people, the numbers become a little dangerous. What I mean is (and yes zero is still zero) but 0 out of 5 is very different than 0 out of 200. I am not saying anything is acceptable, just that the numbers can be deceiving in a small organization where there is little rate of change. Where there is little or no change, there little or no chance for ANYONE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Sorry, I know you didn't say the CSA was racist (I got mixed up with the Holger stuff). Your only questionning who they're hiring and are suggesting it's weird because it's not reprentative of Canada. 2 black head coaches for the CSA seems reprensentative of Canada ethnic diversity IMO. Hart with the U-20's and Doliscat with the development team (U-20's who went to the Francophone games). That's 2 out of 8-10 teams the CSA has. On a small number like that, it's pretty tough to ask an organization to be reprensentative of the country ethnic diversity. But the real debate should be about the quality of those hired, not about their ethnic background. Unless of course we have some informations about race affecting selection, but so far I'm seeing a bit of everything among our coaches. In the past 5-6 years we've had coaches from arabic, italian, croatian, Haitian, Trinidad, German, english, quebec background. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Also, while the CSA is not representative of Canada in its make up, I wonder - and I do not know one way or another - if it is reprentative of its membership. I doubt there is anyway to know, but one wonders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 quote:Originally posted by speedmonk42 I am not saying anything is acceptable, just that the numbers can be deceiving in a small organization where there is little rate of change. Where there is little or change, there little or no chance for ANYONE. Exactly. We don't have that much teams and a lot of those are only functionnal once every 2 years, it's tough to find jobs for everyone and I would think that former players who wants to be involve with the program at the coaching level should first work with some clubs and work the ladder. That would be the ideal situation. It's nice from Rick Titus to talk about his friend Hooper like that but a lot of former players could do the same about another former players and the reality is, we don't have place for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Gordon Also, while the CSA is not representative of Canada in its make up, I wonder - and I do not know one way or another - if it is reprentative of its membership. I doubt there is anyway to know, but one wonders. I would be surprise the CSA has datas about their membershîp ethnic background. But one that's jumping in your face is we have no woman head coach at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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