MNT players who were never given a chance

[rick titus]

Frank Lofranco, Eddy Berdusco, and Domenic Mobilio were all overlooked somewhat, and it seemed to happen most when they were in their best form. Selection is just terrible, be it racist or not. If I were Italian I'd be pissed! I think the reasons for keeping them out were not good enough, especially when they were in their best form.

[Toronto MB]

Hmmmmm....

I think

DeGuzman

Gerba

Occean

DeRosario

Bernier

Hutchinson

Gerba

would probably disagree with you Rick.

While I cannot speak to Holger's racial beliefs, I think commenting that the entire CSA selection network is "racist" is a bit outlandish.

Although in my competive youth days I played against a ton of seriously talented Portugese and Italian players. And am suprised that those two groups have hardly any representation at the national level.

Woodbridge (mostly Italian) were consistant national club champions in my age group ,1987, and Toronto Supra (mostly Portugese) were excellent as well.

From playing alongside some of those guys, I remember they had virtually no interest in playing for Canada. That could be part of the reason.

[squid2]

quote:Originally posted by rick titus

Here is a question? Why is Lyndon Hooper, one of our most decorated national team players, a consumate gentleman, and an excellent coach, not involved in any facet of coaching at the national or provincial level? Is it racist, disrespectful, or is he not one of the boys? Makes you wonder doesn't it... Remember the good old boys trusted him as a player, but do not give him the opportunity to help coach in any way. Seems a little racist, and a little disrespectful to me. What do you think?

Lyndon Hooper, Technical Coordinator (Referee Development - OSA)

http://soccer.on.ca/OSN.nsf/a93f8fc45a396d178525681d005e2f20/be8dac4e34c7d8058525681d005e4dc9?OpenDocument

Mr Hooper is right thick in the middle of the OSA as a F-T employee.

FWIW - I'm more in agreement with your comments than against.

Back in the 80's when I was an OSA Instructor, I can remember some "off-colour" remarks made by "people in higher positions" which were directed towards certain potential participants of the Level 1, 2 & 3 coaching clinics. However ......

[squid2]

quote:Originally posted by Toronto MB

.... I think commenting that the entire CSA selection network is "racist" is a bit outlandish.

I'm just expressing my own opinion here ... everyone should have an equal chance, unfortunately at the CSA not everyone is equal, especially in the opinion of a select few.

As much as I'd like to see the CSA torn apart, there are some good people doing some good work. I'm willing to guess that perhaps the only explanation that anything positive ever occurs is because of these few people of competence. The problem is, once they are found, everyone else exploits the hell out of 'em and they either move on or burn out.

After 40+ years of watching the way the CSA operates, I'm betting that Mickey Mouse wears a CSA watch.

And the apologists can all go to hell.

[youllneverwalkalone]

The reality of immigration is that these British guys at the CSA aren't coming from Kensington. They're coming from places like Glasgow and Liverpool. It's only in recent memory that Rangers and Celtic became somewhat secular. I'd venture to say it's only since David Moyes that black players are welcome at Everton (And yes I know there was a guy who scored in the '66 FA Cup whose second cousin was from the West Indies).

Don't know about Holger though. When I think of the guys who wanted him out, the ones that come to mind are all white (Bircham, Brennan, etc.) When I think of "Holger's players" most of them are non-white: Nsaliwa, Hutchinson, De Guzman, Canizales, etc.

[Grizzly]

Many of the directors of the CSA are amateur soccer officials who are incompetent for the positions they hold and tend to favour hiring their friends when positions are open. I draw the line, however, when people start claiming it is a racist organization. Some of the comments here make it sound like it is run by a combination of KKK men and Rangers anti-Catholic hooligans (will the next claim be we don't have enough Catholics on the national team?) who are still missing the good old days of the Fuhrer Ossieck. Exactly how many CSA directors/provincial association directors are recent immigrants from Glasgow and Liverpool? Most are born and raised in Canada and many are not even of Scottish or English background. In fact the only real racism I am seeing is the opinion that Scottish and English people have taken over the CSA and are inherently racist that is being expressed on this thread. An awful lot of the CSA directors are Italian, so lets make some similar claims that they are a bunch of recently immigrated racist Lazio fans and see how well that goes over on the board. Oh and I forgot, some of the bright guys claiming racism inclusing Titus are saying it is the Italians being discriminated against despite one of the head coaches and many of the CSA directors being Italian-Canadian.[:0] I doubt it would be OK to float a theory about Jews taking over the CSA and discriminating against everyone so it should be no more acceptble to make similar claims about Scots and English. There are enough legitimate things to criticize the CSA and provincial associations about rather than spewing this crap.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Andy Sharpe, Colin Linford, Jim Fleming are the past 3 CSA presidents. Their reign spans 10 years. All three are from the UK. Non are from Kensington. I don't claim that any are racist, or have any religious paramilitary affiliations. Obviously, Grizzly, keep your f-ucking pants on you spaz. I don't know any of them. But if Rick Titus tells us there's racism in the organization it wouldn't surprise me at all. The tone is set from the top and all three of the past presidents come from a football culture where "supporters" make monkey noises at their own internationals. That **** STILL happens. That's all I was pointing out. This isn't a trial, I can speculate and offer up all the conjecture I like. But, for the record, I'm not floating a theory. I have no theory. I have no opinion. But it is a fact that the past three CSA president are from the UK. Fleming from Edinburgh, Sharpe from not Kensington, Linford from not Kensington.

We all have to wade through minimum 10,000 words every f-ucking time you post. Do me a favour and read my 50 words carefully enough not to fly off the handle.

[Grizzly]

You are indeed strongly insinuating they are racist. Why else are you bringing up where they were born and their ethnicity and also stating it would be so much better if they were from Kensington? That is in itself racist and discriminatory. Once again the only evidence of racism I have seen so far is in the racist comments against Scottish and English people in this thread. Let's have someone, including the disgruntled former player with a history of outlandish statements whom you seem to believe so much, bring some actual proof of any racist behaviour on the part of the three past CSA presidents or other CSA officials.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by rick titus

Here is a question? Why is Lyndon Hooper, one of our most decorated national team players, a consumate gentleman, and an excellent coach, not involved in any facet of coaching at the national or provincial level? Is it racist, disrespectful, or is he not one of the boys? Makes you wonder doesn't it... Remember the good old boys trusted him as a player, but do not give him the opportunity to help coach in any way. Seems a little racist, and a little disrespectful to me. What do you think?

Here is an answer:

Lyndon Hooper has already coached the Ontario U-17 team which he did while he was getting his B licence. As previously mentioned he is currently Technical Coordinator of Referee Development for the OSA. I am not sure what OSA coaches make and how many if any are full time but I suspect that Hooper's position is full time and probably better paid than the coaching positions. As far as Hooper's qualifications go he only retired as a player 6 years ago, is still relatively young with lots of time to establish a coaching career if he so chooses, as far as I can determine does not have extensive experience as a coach other than the U-17 stint and a short stint as Lynx assistant coach and as far as I can determine does not hold an A coaching licence. Hooper was a classy guy and played very well for the MNT. He may indeed make an excellent coach in the future but I have seen no evidence that he wants or has been denied an OSA coaching position let alone that this has occurred due to racism against him. I also doubt he is the only former MNT player to have a B coaching licence and to be working in a different job.

Now a question for you Rick:

Does Lyndon Hooper know that you are posting accusations of racism on his behalf against his current employer on an internet forum? If he does not than I think this is extremely unprofessional and unethical behaviour on your part. If this is indeed the case I think Lyndon Hooper would be quite upset with your actions. If he has indeed ever experienced any racial discrimination from the OSA I am quite sure he is able to deal with it himself in the manner he deems proper without having you gossip and speculate about it on an internet forum. If I am to believe Lyndon Hooper has been discriminated against then I want to hear this from Lyndon Hooper not Rick Titus.

I have also not heard any valid evidence from you that Holger was racist. Not only are your comments so far unsubstantiated, they seem to be libelous.

[youllneverwalkalone]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

You are indeed strongly insinuating they are racist. Why else are you bringing up where they were born and their ethnicity and also stating it would be so much better if they were from Kensington? That is in itself racist and discriminatory. Once again the only evidence of racism I have seen so far is in the racist comments against Scottish and English people in this thread. Let's have someone, including the disgruntled former player with a history of outlandish statements whom you seem to believe so much, bring some actual proof of any racist behaviour on the part of the three past CSA presidents or other CSA officials.

I am not insinuating that any of the past presidents are racist. You are making a libelous statement. However, unlike Rick, you don't provide your name to the public domain. So how will I call you out and talk to you like a child for posting your opinion on an internet forum?

Let's try anyway. I'll slow it down for you one last time. It doesn't matter who is from Kensington. The point is that most immigrants come from places that are worse off than Canada -especially in the generation prior to ours. Typically, places in the UK that are/were worse off than Canada (ie. Glasgow & Liverpool -or Burnley or Luton or whatever) have a history of racism in football that exceeds what you might find in London. If you would care to deny this I would love to hear your 10,000 word explanation.

I honestly don't know whether there are any merits to Rick's claim. But to stammer up and down for evidence of racism in football appears to me to be incredibly naive. What rock have you been hiding under?

I completely agree that I don't believe there was any racism in Holger's era. I would also agree that English football is way better than it used to be in this regard, if anyone would care to make that argument.

But, IIRC, Rick Titus is approaching 40 years of age. This is about the age of England's first black captain, Paul Ince. To get these guys to *prove* to you (and who the f-uck are you anyway?) that there is racism in their past is incredibly f-ucking ignorant. As much as I agree that Lyndon Hooper shouldn't be part of this debate, attacking a guy for giving his opinion on an issue with which he is well acquainted and then giving him a holier-than-thou lecture about internet forums whilst you wax on with more written masturbation than any of us would care to see is really disgusting. Personally, I've lost a lot of respect for you Grizzly.

[rick titus]

It's funny to see the different opinions expressed on this thread. I am not even angry about it, just more disappointed that the racial divide in Canada remains the same, and will not change until people like Grizzly can admit that it exists. Grizzly... I am not a racist, my lady is Polish, and I don't think all members of the CSA and OSA are racists, because that would be ridiculous! I respect many of the members whatever colour they are. John Knox I respect the most! For you to mention a group of black players and use that as ammunition to say that there is no racism is ignorant, and tells me that you have no idea what you're talking about. By the way, I had both CSA and OSA officials tell me face to face that young black players are lazy, and athletic, but not technical enough. I can write a book on the proof, but that would probably get me (blackballed)! LOL! . As far as the three CSA presidents being from the U.K. I don't really give a ****e, as my Scottish brother Ian Sneddon would say. However, it is the truth. No one on this thread is racist against anyone, but your comments make you sound like you're not willing to admit that there is racism. SQUID2, Lyndon Hooper is a fulltime employee of Referee Development!!! Are you kidding me mate!!! Do you think he deserves a job as a national team coach? Referee Development for a player capped over 60 times for Canada!!! You know what makes it even worse? He works in the same office as our representatives! They should be begging him to coach! Don't you see my point!!!! If you don't, it further proves my point that the racial divide will only get wider unless we all can admit that it exists! Anyway, this thread can go on forever, and it has become redundant already. As far as me being a disgruntled former player... I still play, and I still love the game, and I am not disgruntled at all, I just don't want other black kids to go through what I had to endure just to make a career in soccer. The road was too hard, and in the end it was only worth it because of the fact that I can help other kids acheive their dream a little easier than I did. What we need is an open honest discussion on this issue, but it will never happen... Grizzly I don't know who you are, and Squid2 I don't know you either, but if you put your real name in your responses then maybe one day we can come to some sort of understanding. In the past I have said alot of crazy things but it was always truth that I spoke, and that won't change, so if you have a problem with that it was probably you it was directed at, and I apologize if it hurt you. Good luck to you all, and take care...

[youllneverwalkalone]

quote:Originally posted by rick titus

Race and ethnicity is a problem that exists in every institution in soccer unfortunately. I think Holger was guilty of that more than any other coach since 1986. Not because of my personal dealings with him, but his overall behaviour was indicative of the type of racism I see in soccer sometimes. I've had to deal with that in soccer ever since I was about thirteen, and sadly I see children now that are Italian, Indian, Asian, black, etc... going through the same thing. It sucks, but it will always be there until the OSA and CSA members represent what Canada really looks like. Canada is a multicultural country, and our soccer members should represent that, but it won't change anytime soon.

I'm just quoting this because I've read it again and it makes perfect sense. How can anybody dispute that the coaches, the delegates, the admin staff are predominantly white when the actual MNT is at least 50/50?

I'm not making any comment as to racism. But what Rick says is true. The CSA is not representative. I'm not even saying it should be, but hey, I'm white. I'm only quoting this because some dumb c-unt is jumping all over the guy for saying something that pretty closely resembles fact and is now trying to make him justify himself.

Grizzly, how many elected or appointed members of the CSA are non-white?

I've never seen a single one.

[rick titus]

By the way, Lyndon would NEVER admit if he was treated unfairly due to race. That is not in his character. I am posing the question to you because the point is valid. Did Mark Watson or Nick Dasovic have more playing exerience than Lyndon, or a better career? How about Randy Samuels does he not deserve the opportunity as much as Mark or Nick, but they got their opportunities already. You tell me why... Me, Mark and Nick are very good friends, and I am happy for them both, but I think it sucks that the opportunity has not come around for Lydon, Randy, Alex, Kevin Holness, Carl Fletcher, etc... Yes I know some have had some opportunity, but why is there such a disparity in the higher coaching positions? Stephen Hart... who else is there. Why is Charmaine Hooper not a part of the WNT set-up? Remember her? Remeber what recently happened to her? Was that racist? I don't know brother, but the question exists because racism exists in all institutions. You seem a little racist to me, because racist people tend to say that racism doesn't exist, and ask me to prove it. Come on man, get real. I've had bananas thrown at me as well, and I know who is racist and who isn't by how they conduct themselves with myself and other blacks. I am not the black man spokesman, but if you want to know the truth I can tell you if you let me know who you really are. Don't be afraid brother, be strong, and be real! Take care Grizzly!

[rick titus]

YOULLNEVERWALKALONE for President!!! Your point is mine exactly! I don't really care if the representatives are predominantly white. What I do care about is that Canada is changing, and all of our institutions should reflect that change to make it fair for all. Right now it seems unfair, and I know of racism because it has been a thorn in my side for as long as I can remember. If a person is white they will not understand that, and it is okay for them not to understand, but at least be honest enough to see that the unfairness is there, and that racism could be part of the decision making process in regards to selection of coaches, players, and members etc... I have seen it, I have experienced it personally, and I know for a fact that it is there, because white guys that are my friends tell me it exists because they also know from personal experience. To discuss proof is not only childish, but also incindiary. It would open up old wounds, and that is not where I want to go. I want to move ahead and forget the past injustices, because we can only be sure of right NOW, not what happened in the past. It is time to move forward brothers!!!

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

I am not insinuating that any of the past presidents are racist. You are making a libelous statement. However, unlike Rick, you don't provide your name to the public domain. So how will I call you out and talk to you like a child for posting your opinion on an internet forum?

Let's try anyway. I'll slow it down for you one last time. It doesn't matter who is from Kensington. The point is that most immigrants come from places that are worse off than Canada -especially in the generation prior to ours. Typically, places in the UK that are/were worse off than Canada (ie. Glasgow & Liverpool -or Burnley or Luton or whatever) have a history of racism in football that exceeds what you might find in London. If you would care to deny this I would love to hear your 10,000 word explanation.

I honestly don't know whether there are any merits to Rick's claim. But to stammer up and down for evidence of racism in football appears to me to be incredibly naive. What rock have you been hiding under?

I completely agree that I don't believe there was any racism in Holger's era. I would also agree that English football is way better than it used to be in this regard, if anyone would care to make that argument.

But, IIRC, Rick Titus is approaching 40 years of age. This is about the age of England's first black captain, Paul Ince. To get these guys to *prove* to you (and who the f-uck are you anyway?) that there is racism in their past is incredibly f-ucking ignorant. As much as I agree that Lyndon Hooper shouldn't be part of this debate, attacking a guy for giving his opinion on an issue with which he is well acquainted and then giving him a holier-than-thou lecture about internet forums whilst you wax on with more written masturbation than any of us would care to see is really disgusting. Personally, I've lost a lot of respect for you Grizzly.

First of all this is not a debate about whether racism exists in soccer, in Canada or anywhere else in the world or whether Rick Titus has at some point faced racism in his soccer career. Rick Titus has stated in this thread very specific allegations against specific individuals and organizations: that Holger Ossieck, the CSA and the OSA are racist. He has in no way provided any evidence to back these claims. And yes if Rick Titus or anyone else for that matter makes such allegations on a public forum it is indeed necessary for him to provide some proof.

Second you don't need to slow any explanation down for me at all as I understood exactly what you were getting at the first time (the only thing I am not sure about is whether you are referring to the ethnically diverse Kensington, Toronto or the non-ethnically diverse Kensington London). You are stating that the past three president's of the CSA have come from areas where there have been racial incidents in the past. I see no other reason for mentioning this than to infer that these individuals also must share discriminatory attitudes since they came from these regions. This inference is in itself discriminatory especially since whatever racial incidents that may or may not have occured in the cities where the three presidents grew up (Do you actually know at what age any of these individuals came to Canada or exactly where they grew up?) they were likely only indicative of the attitude of a small portion of the population of this area. Once again it is not acceptable to state that because the last three leaders of the CSA have come from an areas where there have been incidents of intolerence in the past (which by the way includes just about every region in the world) that this lends credence to Rick Titus' assertion that Holger Ossieck, the CSA and OSA are racist.

Third it has not slipped my notice that your last two posts have not solely dealt with what I have posted but have included personal attacks on myself and various opinions about my style of posting, in some of which you claim to represent the board's opinion. I personally could not care less whether you respect me or not and I leave it up to others to form their own opinions on my posts. Like anyone else you are entitled to read or not read my posts. A simple look at my profile would reveal that I am in no way anonymous on this forum. I think that Glasgow, Liverpool and Kensington and whether any past CSA presidents come from these areas is irrelevant to the current topic and do not wish to discuss these topics further. I would be interested in hearing Rick Titus' response.

[Grizzly]

To respond to Rick Titus' post which came while I was writing my last one. I am not denying that there is racism. There is racism in every country, culture, ethnic group, organization etc. It is also true that the majority of people in these countries, cultures, ethnic groups, organizations are not racist. Because one or several members of a certain group or organization do a racist act does not mean that this group is in itself racist. We can debate racism in society all we want if you want to open a thread on that but that is not the subject of this thread.

You have made claims that the CSA and OSA are rife with racism and that Holger Ossieck was racist. I have yet to see you support these claims with evidence and that is what I would like to see.

As for the number of CSA directors who are non-white, the demographics of Canada and Canadian soccer have changed quite rapidly in recent years. Currently depending on the selection anywhere from 1/3 to half of our MNT starting 11 is non-white. As many of these players retire I am sure some of them will enter high level positions in Canadian soccer. Additionally the increased non-white percentage of membership in the provincial soccer associations will result in more of the directorship being from visible minorities. This does not happen over night. 20 years ago I doubt that the Technical Coordinator of Referee Development for the OSA was black. In several years we could see Hooper in a much higher position possibly even as president of the OSA. I have no doubt that all of our soccer organizations leadership will diversify in the coming years. I am more worried about us getting more competent people in such positions than has been the case in the past than what their ethnic background is.

[CanadasBest]

quote:Originally posted by rick titus

YOULLNEVERWALKALONE for President!!! Your point is mine exactly! I don't really care if the representatives are predominantly white. What I do care about is that Canada is changing, and all of our institutions should reflect that change to make it fair for all. Right now it seems unfair, and I know of racism because it has been a thorn in my side for as long as I can remember. If a person is white they will not understand that, and it is okay for them not to understand, but at least be honest enough to see that the unfairness is there, and that racism could be part of the decision making process in regards to selection of coaches, players, and members etc... I have seen it, I have experienced it personally, and I know for a fact that it is there, because white guys that are my friends tell me it exists because they also know from personal experience. To discuss proof is not only childish, but also incindiary. It would open up old wounds, and that is not where I want to go. I want to move ahead and forget the past injustices, because we can only be sure of right NOW, not what happened in the past. It is time to move forward brothers!!!

Speaking just for myself... If what you've written here is how you really feel i'm kind of glad you haven't represented our country.

[youllneverwalkalone]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

To respond to Rick Titus' post which came while I was writing my last one. I am not denying that there is racism. There is racism in every country, culture, ethnic group, organization etc. It is also true that the majority of people in these countries, cultures, ethnic groups, organizations are not racist. Because one or several members of a certain group or organization do a racist act does not mean that this group is in itself racist. We can debate racism in society all we want if you want to open a thread on that but that is not the subject of this thread.

You have made claims that the CSA and OSA are rife with racism and that Holger Ossieck was racist. I have yet to see you support these claims with evidence and that is what I would like to see.

As for the number of CSA directors who are non-white, the demographics of Canada and Canadian soccer have changed quite rapidly in recent years. Currently depending on the selection anywhere from 1/3 to half of our MNT starting 11 is non-white. As many of these players retire I am sure some of them will enter high level positions in Canadian soccer. Additionally the increased non-white percentage of membership in the provincial soccer associations will result in more of the directorship being from visible minorities. This does not happen over night. 20 years ago I doubt that the Technical Coordinator of Referee Development for the OSA was black. In several years we could see Hooper in a much higher position possibly even as president of the OSA. I have no doubt that all of our soccer organizations leadership will diversify in the coming years. I am more worried about us getting more competent people in such positions than has been the case in the past than what their ethnic background is.

Three of out top 5 cap winners for Canada are black: Hooper, Bunbury, and Samuel. The other two, Watson and Dasovic, have been national team coaches. I don't know if Alex and Randy have been interested in coaching, but clearly Lyndon was. It does seem odd -especially with Bunbury who has so much experience playing against the type of competition we face in CONCACAF- that none of the three have been coaches for the senior team. Especially as these three retired long before Watson and Dasovic.

Here's an interesting thread where Grizzly called Anson Carter a racist after he had bananas thrown at him in Russia.

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5674&whichpage=1&SearchTerms=Paolo%2CDi%2CCanio

After Wallace's recent comments perhaps the Voyageurs need to forget future scarf projects and go straight to the pointy white hats.

[Grizzly]

If you want to call me out and bitch at me why don't you just open a separate thread for that, YNWA? Regarding the thread, Anson Carter was a victim of a racial incident in Russia which I completely condemned but also responded with a racial insult of his own which while maybe understandable was not a commendable gesture as someone had suggested. This was also the thread where you defended DiCanio's fascist salute. Anyway if you want to continue revealing the quality of your character by debating me on such topics, open a new thread.

quote:After Wallace's recent comments perhaps the Voyageurs need to forget future scarf projects and go straight to the pointy white hats.

Yeah I guess the Voyageurs are inherently racist as well. Thanks for telling us, guy who is ok with the fascist salute.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

You are indeed strongly insinuating they are racist. Why else are you bringing up where they were born and their ethnicity and also stating it would be so much better if they were from Kensington? That is in itself racist and discriminatory. Once again the only evidence of racism I have seen so far is in the racist comments against Scottish and English people in this thread. Let's have someone, including the disgruntled former player with a history of outlandish statements whom you seem to believe so much, bring some actual proof of any racist behaviour on the part of the three past CSA presidents or other CSA officials.

Grizzly ..the CSA and OSA pooh bahs have for years discriminated in Ontario without the right accent a B licence invite to be in the course was impossible unless you were someone with a British passport in your past, and yes I say it someone who was white.

Has it changed, somewhat but the same values still exist in the pubs after events the strains are there in our behavour, to deny it is silly.

You talk of Scots and English being discriminated against....? What about when a district associations president and technical director want to have a club/team out of the OSA cause they dont like the fact there "community" memebers come out to games and other teams feel intiminated by seeing a sideline full of Jamicans and yes i can give you line and verse on it.

Suffice to say the actions did not move any further, as it was reported as clearly as a clash of soccer cultures much akin to how we feel when we play games in Central America.

British Isles immigration to Canada in the mid sixtys and on has been fueled by lots of rationales from individual immigrants, for working class Britons one reality was they wanted to leave a Britain which they felt was no longer theirs.

I have said it before .. and will no doubt say it again the influence of individuals from the British Isles has been far greater in Canadian soccer then has been good for the game and it continues today... that influence might not be racist against visible minoritys or immigrant groups in any greater amount then it is clearly discriminatory against non-british background long term Canadian stock. That includes the massive under representation of franco players in the national programs.

So is the CSA - OSA racist of course it is, how does it get played out, in various ways subtle and no so subtle, does the CSA or OSA address the issue, they dont. Heck the OSA opposes letting the EODSA get registration forms translated to french for those who want to register using a french form let alone hiring a bilingual development officer to grow the game in french communitys in Ontario.

[CanadasBest]

Sorry but reverse racism is still racism.

Supply some concrete evidence against specific persons or STFU.

These Xenophobic and racist generalizations need to stop.

[SoccMan]

Look things are changing, the CSA and OSA are slowly starting to reflect Canadian society a liitle more. As someone who had a sibling go through the youth soccer system back in the 80's and 90's who played on a few provincial teams but never made the respective U17 and 20 national teams, when I look back and remember some of the players that were picked over him onto these youth national teams , players of inferior abilities, it was plain to see that ethnic background was likely the final deciding factor. Do I hold a grudge? No not realy, I just look back and think it was kind of funny because it was pretty obvious to us and many people what was going on. Hey if the CSA or OSA had been dominated by people of Italian background you would have still seen the same type of thing happening. You would have seen various national teams dominated by players of Italian background. I think it's just human nature to favour people from your own background when making decisions like this. I'm not saying it's right but I can understand it. The only thing that does bug me is for some people to come on here and deny that this sort of thing was not at play over the years with the OSA and CSA. It was admitt it, however, the good thing is slowly things are changing and eventually we will all get along for the better of soccer in Canada.

[rick titus]

Like I said I am disappointed by what I am reading. I will not use this type of forum to prove my point. I will say again that my opinion is that Holger was a racist person. I have my reasons, so it doesn't matter if you think I need proof or not, I know what I'm talking about! As far as proof whether members are racist or not, again is childish, and should not be discussed on this forum. I gave an example of my own personal circumstance, so why was this not addressed by those of you asking for proof? AGAIN, I say that NOT ALL OF THE MEMBERS OF THE CSA or OSA ARE RACIST BECAUSE THAT IS A greatIN IDIOTIC STATEMENT! What I am saying is that some members fall under this category whether they say it or not because I have experienced it, as well as other blacks. Some Italians, and Slavic memebers have as well. To give you proof, we could be here all day! Get my drift! I doubt you do... Anyhow, take it how you want to, I've been there and done that, you want to discuss proof then come on this forum with your real name and then tell me what you think, but we both know that is not going to happen! Thank-you Grizzly for further proving my point. You ask for proof because you think I'm either lying or exaggerating, but contrary to what you think, the proof has been in the pudding since I was very young. As for Holger, he was much more of an asshole than a racist, but I think he was a racist no doubt. Have you ever heard of the term "TOKEN"? Holger picked some "TOKEN" blacks because sometimes when you're a racist person it is better to not rock the boat, and play the "game", so to speak. Just like you're doing right now Grizzly. My opinions are based on my own experience, and the experiences of alot of the people that have been, and are a part of our national and provincial organizations.

On a side note, I hope Dale MItchell does well, because unlike Holger, Dale has never displayed any of the racist characteristics that some of you have Mr. GRIZZLY. Dale may not have had alot of success at the under 20 level, but I wish him the best because he is FAIR. If he deems you a good player, he will play you on his team, and that is all myself, and everyone else is asking for, and that is FAIRNESS. If there were fairness to be begin with, it wouldn't matter who represents us, because the best players and coaches would be picked. The reason that we are having this discussion is because that fairness only exists with some individuals. That is my whole point!

Before you ask anything else please address my questions about who you are, and then maybe we can discuss further. If not, please don't ask me anything else, because it would be pointless! gwallace! Did you really say reverse racism? I mean really! Are you that stupid? How does the recipient of racial abuse become a racist? I know for a fact that Anson Carter is not a racist because he is my friend, and I would not hang out or talk to anyone that is racist because my woman is Polish. Some of Anson's ex's were white, so how does that make him a reverse racist? You're an idiot, and you should also use your own name when posting so that we all know who the asshole is, that is calling Anson Carter a reverse racist! What a spineless ass you are gwallace! Go back under the rock you crawled out from! Your opinion means nothing if you're not man enough to stand behind it using your own name. Other than that, I couldn't give a ****e about what you have to say. Be a man Grizzly, be a man gwallace, don't hide from your opinions, let me know how you feel, being yourself, as I do. If you can't do that, please stop writing a bunch of ****e!

[rick titus]

Hey SoccMan that was a nice post. It was at least honest. Thanks! What you are saying is "spot on"

[AvroArrow]

To argue that any type of leadership position or team make-up needs to represent the country at large based on skin colour or ethnicity is ridiculous. If that was the case, the Canadian national soccer and basketball teams would have to drop a lot of minority players in order to bring the team into line with Canada's overall "Caucasion-ness". This would be inherently stupid.

I don't care if the person is white, black, or rainbow-coloured. Just pick the guy who is best and qualify for the freaking World Cup already.