DeGuzman vs. Barcelona

[SthMelbRed]

I'm not sure if the Barca/Deportivo match was on Canadian TV, or not. I got to watch it here in Australia and I paid particularly close attention to how JDG performed. From the matches I've seen him play for Canada, he's usually deployed in an attacking midfield role. Against Barca, he was played as more of a holding midfielder. In this role, I think he did an excellent job. He was very intelligent in the defensive positions he took up, didn't make any rash challenges (against Ronaldinho, Messi, Deco, Eto'o, etc. that is impressive), and showed great composure with the ball at his feet. After Collocini, who was easily the most impressive player on the pitch for either team, I'd say Julian was Deportivo's most impressive player. Does anybody else who saw the game have any analysis?

[Guest Jeffery S.]

Collocini was more impressive than Iniesta, oh my....

If anyone should deserve credit it is Felipe for stopping Messi and having a few good runs forwards.

As for Iniesta, he is one of the top ten players in the world right now IMO, and it showed, even in an average game.

As for Julian, he was good, at least I thought so. But the papers here gave him a 5/10 and one called him "pasmado", meaning stunned, meaning he was not fully there at times. A bit harsh, but maybe balances my -and your- view a bit.

[SthMelbRed]

DeGuzman sat in a deep, defensive position (the most defensive of Depor's midfielders) for pretty much the whole game. He didn't touch the ball at all for the first 20 minutes or so, but got more of it as the game wore on. When he did have the ball, he was calm and invariably made the right pass. I don't think he gave the ball away once in the whole game. What impressed me most was his positioning. Even when he wasn't getting a lot of the ball, it was because Barca was domination posession and weren't playing through his areas because he was taking up good defensive positions and limiting their forward options in those areas. When he was marking Barca's dangerous forward players, he did well to hold them up, not get beaten, and gave his teammates the chance to get back to double up on the marking. Similarly, he was quick to help out his teammates when they found themselves in one-on-one marking situations. Obviously, playing probably the greatest attacking team in the world, Deportivo wasn't going to get too much of the ball. Still, they defended well throughout and created a fair few chances on the counter. I find it hard to believe from watching that match that they are in the relegation zone (it was the first time I've seen them this season). They were unfortunate not to get a point from the game. How anybody could give JDG a 5/10 rating in that game is beyond me.

[SthMelbRed]

As for Iniesta, he is undoubtedly a great talent. I'm not sure he's quite in the top ten best players in the world, though. Given, it isn't as common for a well-rounded player such as Iniesta to get the recognition he deserves as opposed to dazzling attacking players. I've paid a keen interest to his career ever since he single-handedly beat our U-20 team in the QFs in UAE a few years back. He's done very well for himself.

[Bertuzzi44]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

As for Iniesta, he is one of the top ten players in the world right now IMO, and it showed, even in an average game.

Man oh man.... and this is the same Iniesta who was roughly at the same 'level' as Hume and to a lesser extent Simpson 4 years ago at WYC 2003, right??

Yet more evidence Spain develops talent better than england. I remember Hume was regarded very highly back then, and played very evenly against Iniesta and Spain in the knockout stages of the tourny. Today Iniesta is in Barca's starting XI and Humey is with relegation threatened Leicester in englands second tier.

As if De Guzman's development didn't make this point obvious enough...

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Bertuzzi44

I see your point. But to be fair to the oposite point of view, Iniesta was already knocking on the door of of the starting eleven for Barça, at the time of the U20 WC in the UAE.

Your argument would be better strenghtened using the example of Atiba. He was named to the tournament all star team. Though he didn't play in England, his plight has been more progressive he is with a mid-group UEFA cup side while Iniesta might be a top 10 players. Imagine if the roles were reversed and it was Atiba who was where Iniesta is now.

[Grizzly]

I am disappointed with Hume's development as well. However, Iniesta was a star player going into that tournament (maybe not yet a star in La Liga but already someone being touted as the next big thing) and a star player during it. As Freekick states the comparison is not apt.

I thought Depor looked every bit a relegation team. They used to take it to the big teams when they played them but have really declined to 2nd class citizens in La Liga. They played a classic everyone back style that vastly inferior teams use when playing superior opposition. Obviously their coach had no confidence that they had any chance of winning and was hoping to steal a tie.

DeGuzman played an effective defensive game but didn't offer very much going forward. His short passing game is good but he did give the ball away on several longer passes. Hitting forwards on long, accurate passes as you need to do to be a top counterattack player doesn't seem to be his strength. However, he was one of their better defensive players. It is cool to see a Canadian playing against guys like Ronaldinho let alone marking him so close at one point that he ran the gammit of his moves got frustrated and ended up having to pass it away.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

I don't want to slag Julian at all, for me he was at least a 6/10, because basically he did not make anything happen, did not get forward, and was not creative in any definitive way. But he was effective in doing what he had to do defensively, and did not lose the ball, and was feisty. For me he takes a step back too often and should take on forwards, since if he misses the mark he has the pace to recover, but does not take advantage of this. Perhaps being up a goal vs. Barça in m. 2 has a lot to do with his role, obviously the team held back, even when drawn they held back. And only pushed when behind, logical, but there was little time left for them to make much happen.

I let Iniesta slip out there just to provoke folks a bit, quite beyond his fine performance vs. us in the U-20 quarter finals (where, by the way, Hume was the best player in the game IMO). He is right now the most consistent player for Barça and has been one of Spain's best in the Euro-qualifying, perhaps the best national team player in the last 5-6 games. But he may not seem trendy to folks, he is so sweet and soft-faced and gentle, so that type of player gets ignored. But is there anyone who has that poise and calm on the ball, that control and accuracy passing, and a great dribble, both feet, and scoring capacity? He is better than Ronaldinho in Ronnie's position, and two years back was sub for Giuly on the right side. He can play all over the place. He is absolutely extraordinary, I invite football fans everywhere to watch him, one of the great young and still unsung players in the world right now.

For me he is a step ahead of the other Barça-system mids out there, like Arteta, and neither Cesc nor Xavi are better. And his curve is only upwards.

[SthMelbRed]

Spain do have an abundance of talented central midfielders right now. On top of Iniesta, Fabregas, and Xavi, they also have Xabi Alonso. Mikel Arteta can't even get a call-up, despite being one of the most consistently outstanding players in England for the past two or three seasons. Although Arteta plays largely on the right side of midfield these days, I think he's originally a central midfielder, and a pretty good one, at that.

[SthMelbRed]

Spain do have an abundance of talented central midfielders right now. On top of Iniesta, Fabregas, and Xavi, they also have Xabi Alonso. Mikel Arteta can't even get a call-up, despite being one of the most consistently outstanding players in England for the past two or three seasons. Although Arteta plays largely on the right side of midfield these days, I think he's originally a central midfielder, and a pretty good one, at that.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by SthMelbRed

Spain do have an abundance of talented central midfielders right now. On top of Iniesta, Fabregas, and Xavi, they also have Xabi Alonso. Mikel Arteta can't even get a call-up, despite being one of the most consistently outstanding players in England for the past two or three seasons. Although Arteta plays largely on the right side of midfield these days, I think he's originally a central midfielder, and a pretty good one, at that.

I think Spain should call up Arteta, even for a friendly, as they should give Novo a run-around just out of respect for what he has done, let him play a friendly some day.

[Gordon]

Cesc is the best player in the world right now. Mentally, as tough as any kid I've seen at this age. He will be a huge reason as to why Spain sheds their label of "underachievers" over the next 6 years.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Cesc is the best player in the world right now. Mentally, as tough as any kid I've seen at this age. He will be a huge reason as to why Spain sheds their label of "underachievers" over the next 6 years.

Cesc is far from the best Spanish player, how could he be the best player in the world? I think you are just reacting to the opinion that whoever generates hype in England is the best player in the world, whereas I have gotten used to the idea that whoever generates hype at Barça is the best. And more votes and polls would tend to agree with me. But it is all a bit silly I admit.

Iniesta is a more complete and more mind-boggling player than Cesc. But let's watch Cesc, Xavi and Iniesta play for the Spanish midfield in the Eurocup, cause if it works and they win it like that it will by truly marvellous.

[SthMelbRed]

Where do you reckon David Silva fits into the Spain midfield? I know he plays as a second striker sometimes, but with Torres and Villa, he's not likely to get in there. Do you think he will be shifted to the left wing or have to content himself with a spot on the bench?

For me, the Spain front six would be best lining up like this:

Xavi (or Xabi Alonso)

Iniesta Fabregas Silva

Torres Villa

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Cesc is far from the best Spanish player, how could he be the best player in the world? I think you are just reacting to the opinion that whoever generates hype in England is the best player in the world, whereas I have gotten used to the idea that whoever generates hype at Barça is the best. And more votes and polls would tend to agree with me. But it is all a bit silly I admit.

Iniesta is a more complete and more mind-boggling player than Cesc. But let's watch Cesc, Xavi and Iniesta play for the Spanish midfield in the Eurocup, cause if it works and they win it like that it will by truly marvellous.

Close Jeffrey, because I really am a slave to the English hype machine. No its watching him play in a league where he has a target on his back for every player who fancies himself a "hard man". Its watching him make the most intelligent play available to him every time, even when someone is looking to break his leg. Its watching his ability to control every ball, every pass even under the most intense pressure and make something good result. Its watching him routinely and regularly shed his defender and slip into open space despite the fact that every manager in the premier league has told his player "stop Cesc". Cesc has the Royal Jelly. Something painfully lacking from the Spanish Squad for as long as I can remember.

Iniesta more complete and mind boggling? I don't think so. However, I find you have a good soccer mind, no matter the result of the coin flip, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and allow myself to be convinced otherwise.

How about a friendly wager though? I will bet you that Cesc emerges as the</u> key player for Spain at Euro 2008. If I win, you will purchase and mail me an official Barcleona Jersey - Iniesta's number of course. If you win (and you get everyone but Cesc so really a sucker's bet by myself), I will purchase and mail you an Official Saskatchewan Roughrider's Jersey. From what I can see, they are of equivalent cost and would represent our respective geography. And, if Robbie Savage, Joey Barton, or their like are successful, and Cesc is injured, the bet will be off.

[JPB]

I didn't watch the match. If DeGuzman played the key midfield defensive role, for a relegation team, against the offensive talent on the Barca lineup (especially in the middle of the park), and the play was close, and the result was respectable, then, he probably did perform his mission very well.

I wouldn't deduct points for lack of attacking content, in such a match by such a key defensive position, but would rather deduct based on errors in fulfilling the mission he was given by his coach and team-mates.

As noted above by SthMelbRed, DeGuzman made no rash fouls (meaning he wasn't carded, right?) and given where he'd be playing and against whom that's significant. The result, 2-1, suggests his contribution frustrated the Barca attack. Was DeGuzman in error on the two goals? Did he make any big stops or tackles? That's the main criteria by which to assess him in that role against that team, I think.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by SthMelbRed

Where do you reckon David Silva fits into the Spain midfield? I know he plays as a second striker sometimes, but with Torres and Villa, he's not likely to get in there. Do you think he will be shifted to the left wing or have to content himself with a spot on the bench?

For me, the Spain front six would be best lining up like this:

Xavi (or Xabi Alonso)

Iniesta Fabregas Silva

Torres Villa

All these ball-talented little guys. Spain lack some strength but there are sure a lot of great ball handlers there.

In the end you have to sacrifice any of the little guys for someone to hold (Senna or Albelda usually), and Spain tends to like to use a winger. So a lot of guys get left out. Or a lot of subs get used.

Canada, with Tam especially, has a similar problem in the middle (Serioux, Atiba, Bernier, Tam, Julian, imagine if his brother came on board: and then you'd have to get another to hold for you). But wouldn't it be nice to have just one great playmaker to top all that off?

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Close Jeffrey, because I really am a slave to the English hype machine. No its watching him play in a league where he has a target on his back for every player who fancies himself a "hard man". Its watching him make the most intelligent play available to him every time, even when someone is looking to break his leg. Its watching his ability to control every ball, every pass even under the most intense pressure and make something good result. Its watching him routinely and regularly shed his defender and slip into open space despite the fact that every manager in the premier league has told his player "stop Cesc". Cesc has the Royal Jelly. Something painfully lacking from the Spanish Squad for as long as I can remember.

Iniesta more complete and mind boggling? I don't think so. However, I find you have a good soccer mind, no matter the result of the coin flip, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and allow myself to be convinced otherwise.

How about a friendly wager though? I will bet you that Cesc emerges as the</u> key player for Spain at Euro 2008. If I win, you will purchase and mail me an official Barcleona Jersey - Iniesta's number of course. If you win (and you get everyone but Cesc so really a sucker's bet by myself), I will purchase and mail you an Official Saskatchewan Roughrider's Jersey. From what I can see, they are of equivalent cost and would represent our respective geography. And, if Robbie Savage, Joey Barton, or their like are successful, and Cesc is injured, the bet will be off.

No, of course he is good, a great talent. I think Iniesta is better, even Xavi is as good. But they have better talent around them so you don't notice as much.

Cesc made the right move to go to Arsenal as right now he would still be behind Xavi and Iniesta in the Barça pecking order.

I'll take a Roughie Jersey, as long as it fits me. Would that be a small? Seriously, remind me of the bet next summer, I'll be in BC shortly afterwards and you can come out and take in our St. Vicent and Grenadines match at Swangard.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

All these ball-talented little guys. Spain lack some strength but there are sure a lot of great ball handlers there.

In the end you have to sacrifice any of the little guys for someone to hold (Senna or Albelda usually), and Spain tends to like to use a winger. So a lot of guys get left out. Or a lot of subs get used.

Canada, with Tam especially, has a similar problem in the middle (Serioux, Atiba, Bernier, Tam, Julian, imagine if his brother came on board: and then you'd have to get another to hold for you). But wouldn't it be nice to have just one great playmaker to top all that off?

Of those players you've mentioned Serioux's the only one who hasn't really progressed as a midfielder since I first saw him in the last WCQ. No denying his physical capabilities, of course, especially now that his knee is fixed, but I'm left wondering why he hasn't established himself as regular midfielder at MLS level but instead seems to be getting converted into a centre back or a flank defender in a 3 man backline by his last two clubs.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by BearcatSA

Of those players you've mentioned Serioux's the only one who hasn't really progressed as a midfielder since I first saw him in the last WCQ. No denying his physical capabilities, of course, especially now that his knee is fixed, but I'm left wondering why he hasn't established himself as regular midfielder at MLS level but instead seems to be getting converted into a centre back or a flank defender in a 3 man backline by his last two clubs.

Admit I have not seen him recently. Imhof could hold for us, DeRo could play in a four man midfield and push forwards. Issey also plays mid quite often, left side behind two strikers at his club, or so I understand. There are a few others out there who could help as well. If we get into the HEX and need depth I am a big believer in Jonathan Boulieu-Bourgault, he is pretty sure with the ball.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Admit I have not seen him recently. Imhof could hold for us, DeRo could play in a four man midfield and push forwards. Issey also plays mid quite often, left side behind two strikers at his club, or so I understand. There are a few others out there who could help as well. If we get into the HEX and need depth I am a big believer in Jonathan Boulieu-Bourgault, he is pretty sure with the ball.

It's always interesting to see which players "burst" onto the scene, especially considering the total duration of the WCQ, and maybe he'll be the one. Overall, it's nice to finally have a core of midfielders that have the "craft" to go along with the "graft," unlike in previous ill-fated WCQs (such as for WC 98, for instance).