Pele on England's woes (Slam sports)

[NPE]

SHEFFIELD, England - Pele believes England is too quick to blame its managers for underachieving - instead of admitting that the soccer-mad country is starved of talent.

1. The national team's only significant triumph remains the 1966 World Cup, which it hosted, and is now in danger of missing its first major tournament since the 1994 World Cup after last month's defeat in Russia maintained a patchy European championship qualifying campaign.

Manager Steve McClaren, fighting for his future after 15 months at the helm, needs Israel to deny Russia three points on Nov. 17 and for his team to beat Croatia four days later at Wembley.

"England has few very good players," three-time World Cup winner Pele said on Wednesday. "When those players get injured in a tough, long tournament they don't have a player to replace them - that is the big problem in England.

"Unlike other countries, Brazil in particular, you don't have many choices when either players are off form or not playing well."

He insists McClaren isn't at fault.

"It's normal all over the world that the coach is always the one who people blame when results don't go well," Pele said. "You have to see the whole process, not just the management."

Pele points to his country's failure to reach the knockout phase of the 1982 World Cup.

"Brazil had the best team, was fantastic with excellent players, and lost the World Cup," he said. "The coach is not the real problem. When things start to go badly, the team doesn't work well, sometimes it's tough to change."

England's so-called "golden generation," featuring the talents of David Beckham and Michael Owen, has gone out at the quarter-finals at the 2002 and 2006 World Cups, and Euro 2004, under Sven-Goran Eriksson.

Pele was in northern England to celebrate the 150th anniversary of the world's first soccer club, Sheffield FC. The amateur side plays Italy's Inter Milan in a friendly on Thursday.

While labelling the English Premier League as the strongest in the world, Pele believes Englishmen must get more match experience in teams swamped with foreign players.

"Countries should give opportunities for their own players if they want a strong national team," he said. "If you take a country like Brazil or Argentina, they don't have foreigners. But because they don't have the money to pay - that is the difference."

[amacpher]

Dumb comments from Pele. Playing in the best league in the world is only going to make you a better player.

[Massive Attack]

Well, he is right about the talent part.

[NPE]

He seems to make some sense - there's less room for english players

to make it into that league which has to have some impact at the national

team level

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by NPE

He seems to make some sense - there's less room for english players to make it into that league which has to have some impact at the national team level

Why? How? That makes no sense, sorry. There are 92 full-time professional clubs in the English leagues plus a dozen or so more in the football Conference.

[NPE]

The fact that the top leagues in Argentina, Brazil and others comprise

more domestic players than the Premiereship, must play some role in the larger talent base

they are developing. Realize there are more reasons than this to explain lack of success

of England but surely this is a contributing factor?

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by NPE

The fact that the top leagues in Argentina, Brazil and others comprise

more domestic players than the Premiereship, must play some role in the larger talent base

they are developing. Realize there are more reasons than this to explain lack of success

of England but surely this is a contributing factor?

No, it's not a contributing factor. At least not in a negative way.

Remember the English team was even worse 10-15 years ago when the Premier League had much fewer foreigners in it.

Today, English players have more opportunities than players from any other country.

It's funny that you bring up the Brasilian league which has become a bit of a joke. Look at someone like Alexander Pato. What did he play... like 5 games for International in the Brasilian league before he moved to AC Milan? If Brasil had a league like England, Pato would be playing as we speak against the best players in the world without having to move halfway across the world at age 17. Instead he is twiddling his thumbs in Italy waiting until he's old enough to be allowed to kick a soccer ball in Europe. [8)]

[loyola]

A good indication of the problem is at the keeper position where you have only 5 or 6 englishmen starting for clubs in the EPL (none with top teams) and none in other top leagues. If you look at Germany, Italy, Holland, France and Spain you'll find a lot more home keepers in their own leagues while a few are also playing in top leagues.

And we all know that England keeping has been very suspect in the past few years but that's what happen when you only have 6 keepers playing at the top while Germnay, Italy and Spain have between 12 and 20.

[NPE]

Look, I realize the lack of English success comes down to other factors as well

but I can't believe that fielding top teams (Arsenal, Chelsea, Man U, Liverpool)

which are comprised of largely foreign players is not having some impact on the English rate

of success.

[Canuck Oranje]

In my view and I think if Pele was allow to expand his thoughts, he would agree too, the issue is first team playing time. The issue is not foreigners playing in the EPL; but, the talented players that don't see first team action at these megaclubs. I would have the same concern about Alexandre Pato at Milan as Theo Walcot at Arsenal or David Edgar at Newcastle.

Maybe the solution is as simple as removing the barriers to loaning players out?

Another key factor about the Brazilian leagues that most would not appreciate is how little difference there is between playing Serie A or playing Serie B or Serie C. Of course, Serie A is still the highest quality but the gap is no where near the gaps in quality seen in Europe between the first and second and third level. Incidentally, two of the four teams promoted from Serie C into Serie B currently hold two of the four promotion spots to Serie A with four games left. The other two promoted teams also are in the top half of the Serie B table. Also only one of last year's promoted teams to Serie A sits in the relegation zone this year.

As Pele quite rightly points out, this is a consequence of most clubs not having enough money to build a deep roster of players. Ironically, one of the largest clubs in Brazil, Corinthians, currently sits just outside of the relegation zone. That is only two years removed from winning the League.

I am generally not in favour of quotas. However, I understand their use in developing leagues like the MLS; but, even then, they should be relaxed as the league strengthens. There is this perception that league wealth will continue no matter what restrictions you place on the product. I don't believe that to be the case. If England, demanded that only English players be used, those star foreigners would go elsewhere and some of the international attention currently on the EPL would go with them. In the late 1980s and early 1990s, the English League was not what it is today.

[amacpher]

Well, quotas aren't really legal either with the EU.

I don't quite see the problem with only 6 English goalkeepers in the Premier League. Is having the 7th best English 'keeper playing in the Championship or not playing regularily really hurting the England NT somehow?

If Drogba, Denilson, Kolo Toure, Torres, Anderson, Ronaldo leave their respective clubs and are replaced by Heskey, Harewood, Johnson, Ashton, Ledley King and Vassell, the English NT doesn't get any better.

Besides, the Bundesliga has tonnes of foreigners and the Germany NT is doing alright.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by amacpher

Well, quotas aren't really legal either with the EU.

I don't quite see the problem with only 6 English goalkeepers in the Premier League. Is having the 7th best English 'keeper playing in the Championship or not playing regularily really hurting the England NT somehow?

When you have 15 guys at the same position playing on a regular basis it's a better situation for the coach. Among those 15, the NT coach knows 2 or 3 will become MNT material. The problem with England is exactly that, they are stuck with average keepers at the moment in James and Robinson. That situation would've never occur in countries like Germany, Italy and Spain because there's always depth.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

When you have 15 guys at the same position playing on a regular basis it's a better situation for the coach. Among those 15, the NT coach knows 2 or 3 will become MNT material. The problem with England is exactly that, they are stuck with average keepers at the moment in James and Robinson. That situation would've never occur in countries like Germany, Italy and Spain because there's always depth.

Well, actually it is kinda happening with Germany right now, isn't it? After their 2 ageing 'keepers, who do they have? Hildebrand? He's rubbish, sorry.

And as I said, the Bundesliga is loaded with foreigners. It's no different than England.

[Canuck Oranje]

Well when you include all the Goalkeepers playing at the League Championship level and below, there are quite a number English keepers playing professionally. And once a League Championship keeper shows that he is capable, an EPL team will pick them up. Quite frankly, I think it's better to be playing regular in the League Championship than sitting as the third string keeper at Man U, as an example.

Again, the massive rosters at the megaclubs is probably more Pele's concern than who is starting in the EPL.

[loyola]

Hildebrand is better than Robinson and I would start Michael Rensing and Robert Enke over Robinson as well.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

Well when you include all the Goalkeepers playing at the League Championship level and below, there are quite a number English keepers playing professionally. And once a League Championship keeper shows that he is capable, an EPL team will pick them up. Quite frankly, I think it's better to be playing regular in the League Championship than sitting as the third string keeper at Man U, as an example.

I'm not denying that but again if your a MNT coach, you like the fact that 15 of your country keepers are playing top level football. The England coach doesn't have that luxury.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

I'm not denying that but again if your a MNT coach, you like the fact that 15 of your country keepers are playing top level football. The England coach doesn't have that luxury.

"top level football". Is there really a significant difference in quality from the Championship to, say, the Dutch top flight??

quote: Hildebrand is better than Robinson and I would start Michael Rensing and Robert Enke over Robinson as well

Have you seen Valencia this season??

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by amacpher

"top level football". Is there really a significant difference in quality from the Championship to, say, the Dutch top flight??

Have you seen Valencia this season??

Germany, Italy and Spain leagues are a good step over the CCC. The Dutch league is still better than the CCC but not ot the extent of the leagues I've already mentionned.

I agree with you, Hilderbrand is like Robinson this year but at least I've seen Tim playing some solid football in the past (something I,ve rarely seen from Robbo).

Edit: BTW, looking at the CCC teams and more than half of them are starting non-englishmen in net.

[Canuck Oranje]

The more I look at the Brazilian League comparison, the more I am convinced that the issue is not the EPL's use of foreigners.

When I look at this year's Serie A, there may be 4-6 teams that could compete in the EPL based on their starting 11 and next player in line in terms of depth. However, as most who follow the EPL will know, one sub is not enough at each position. Only Sao Paulo FC would probably escape relegation if these 4-6 teams were in the EPL. Having said that, I am certain the remaining Serie A teams and probably about 15-16 Serie B teams would compete well against League Championship teams. Their starting 11, in most cases, would be better but their depth would knock them back in the table as much of their depth are untested young players or journeymen. Keep in mind, however, that a wealthy team in Brazil would simply sign more depth if it were to experience injury problems.

That really means that, within Brazil, potential and national team players in Brazil are playing essentially at about the League Championship level or slightly above (if in Serie A). Of course, the styly of play is different.

So Dunga (MNT coach) cannot depend on his domestic league to assemble his national team with the exception of a few players. In other words, he needs to depend on foreign leagues to provide a higher level of competition for his players (that's not to judge how the Brazilian League would look if all Brazilian players stayed home because there is no question that it would then be one of the best in the world).

My view is that England does not do a good job of developing its own players and it is not because there are too many foreigners in the EPL. It probably has more to do with the stockpiling of talented young players by big clubs and the lack of investment in youth development by the smaller clubs. Smaller clubs in Brazil can be profitable by developing players and selling them. However, that, in part, is doesn't cost much to develop young players in Brazil.

Some interesting developments to watch. What happens to the Brazilian League as the Brazilian Real strengthens? The Brazilian economy is also strengthening and is expected to continue to do so. The Brazilian Real has strengthened as a currency in a comparable fashion to the Canadian dollar.

In my view, it will likely mean that you will see more and more foreign players (from other Latin countries) playing in Brazil. Also, more of the mid-level Brazilian players are likely to stay home than to go to Europe's second tier leagues. Although, I suspect significant shifts are not likely to occur for a few years yet.

[amacpher]

No doubt! All national teams have the same problem. Youngsters with great promise are getting plucked by the big clubs at an early age and sitting on the bench too much until they are 20, 21 and good enough to be a regular starter. [V]

[VPjr]

I've been doing a lot of reading lately regarding player development and whatnot. I found it quite interesting that many English coaches have publicly stated that they believe the development model for English players is broken. Sounds familiar, doesn't it.

I keep reading things like:

Players aren't developing good on the ball skills anymore...

Everyone is concerned about players fitting into a cookie cutter "physical mould" to survive the grueling nature of English football rather than just being good footballers...

the players are groomed "to run marathons" but aren't much good with their feet...

kids are grouped into organized, competitive football too early...stuff like that.

Sounds frighteningly similar to what people complain about in Canada and the US.

I think there can be no argument that England is going through a down period. Their depth is shockingly thin. The current English squad does not feature one single player that anyone would consider to be among the top 2 or 3 players at their position in the world...and please dont try to tell me that Gerrard is one of the top MF in the world because he's not. Rooney, when healthy is a very good striker but he's not one of the 3 best in the world, not by a long shot. You might argue that Beckham is one of the 2 or 3 best dead ball artists but that's not a position and its even debatable if he's one of the best anymore (he's still very good though). And Enland is shockingly weak in goal. The US National Team has better GK talent right now (not as many clearly but the best 2 American GKs in England are better than Robinson or James, at least in my opinion)

Personally, I think that failing to make the Euro might be the best thing that could happen to England, similar to Canada being embarrased at the Olympics and other international hockey tournaments. The English need to start looking at themselves with a bit more honesty and see what the world sees...they have lots of professional players but not enough superstars to succeed internationally. They need to reinvigorate their player development models and study what the countries producing the best talent are doing right. Plus, no matter what anyone says, I still believe the over reliance on foreigners at the key offensive positions, especially at the biggest clubs (the ones that play in CL and UEFA) will continue to stifle the English national team. Englishmen don't play outside of England so if they don't get the chance to feature for big clubs in the Premiership, they'll never get to test themselves against the best of the best on a regular basis.

It's one thing for Canadian soccer fans to be happy as long as our national team players are getting regular playing time in reasonably good European leagues (or MLS). Our hope is to simply qualify for a WC, maybe score a goal or pull of a surprise tie.

English fans believe that their team is supposed to WIN World Cups or at least challenge seriously. It's not good enough for English national team players to just play regularly. They need to be important players on club sides that are regularly involved in BIG game situations, both domestically and internationally for their clubs. Who really believes that England is a top 5 or 6 soccer country right now, especially talent wise. I sure dont. They are in the Top 10 but they are a long way from the best in the world (Argentina, Brazil, Italy, Spain, France, Portugal, Netherands...heck I think a couple of African nations might have a more impressive starting 11). Again, they have a lot of players playing professionally but to use a hockey metaphor, the bulk of the English players are the equivalent of 3rd line checkers or 5th and 6th Defenders in hockey. The 1st liner stars, the ones who score all the goals, are almost all foreigners in the Premiership, especially at the big clubs.

[Canuck Oranje]

I guess where my view differs with some is that not having English players starting in the EPL is more a symtom than the cause.

Again, I see the stockpiling of young talent at the megaclubs as a bigger problem for player development. Ironically, the EU's own restrictions on signing Non-EU U-18 players may actually be helping player develop for countries like Brazil and Argentina. This is because it creates a substantial roadblock for many talented young players from these countries that keeps them from capitalizing on the payday that would occur if they were allowed to go to Europe. Further to that, labour laws in the UK further restrict the flow of these non-EU players by establishing even higher barriers to entry.

Not being that aware of the developments in youth development in England, I can only say that, from what I hear, the big EPL clubs have enormous youth academies. I am assuming that if a 16 year-old English prodigy were discovered, it would only be a matter of time before he would be brought into the fold of say the big-10 clubs in England. While there may be some decent development systems among the other EPL clubs and League Championship clubs, the difference in size of the academies between say Man U, Chelsea, etc. and say a Colchester is no doubt enormous. The difference in the depth of talent between these academies is also no doubt enormous.

To further illustrate the contrast between the situation in England and Brazil in youth development, consider what might be the outcome of a U-18 - U 19 tournament between academies of all English League (League 2 and up) and EPL in England. How many teams could a Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal, etc. field that would be competitive with a U-18 or U-19 academy team from say Brentford, Wycombe, Macclesfield, etc. I don't know but I suspect it would be something like 10 or so? or more?

Now in Brazil, there is exactly such a tournament called the Copa Sao Paulo de Juniores. It is a tournament that normally involves teams from most of the clubs involved in Serie A and B plus a number of other clubs with either resources to send a team or local enough to participate without much cost. In it, it is rare that the big clubs have more than one team involved in this tournament (This tournament has 88 teams competing for the title). Occasionally, you might see two teams from local big clubs like Corinthians, Palmeiras, or Sao Paulo but not often. The reason is (and supported by evidence provided by history) that most teams involved in the tournament are capable of winning against teams from the big clubs on any given day.

An excellent example is the 2006 tournament(when still a U-20 tournament). The top-10 club with the best result in the 2006 tournament(January) was the U-20 team from Internacional of Porto Alegre featuring their phenom, Alexandre Pato (who started for the World Club Champions in December 2006). The best they could do was reach the third phase (round of 16). The quarter-finals featured four teams that only play regionally and four others that played in Serie B and C in 2006.

Then to look at the distribution of offensive talent at the U-17 level in the state of Sao Paulo, you also see that there are only two goalscorers among the top-10 from the big-four clubs (Sao Paulo, Corinthians, Palmeiras, and Santos) and neither is among the top-five. More telling is that six of the top-10 are with clubs without teams involved in the Brazilian Leagues (Series A, B, and C).

The primary reason for this is that developing young talent in Brazil is profitable. As a result, the big clubs are not as capable of stripping away talent from smaller teams.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

I think there can be no argument that England is going through a down period. Their depth is shockingly thin. The current English squad does not feature one single player that anyone would consider to be among the top 2 or 3 players at their position in the world...and please dont try to tell me that Gerrard is one of the top MF in the world because he's not. Rooney, when healthy is a very good striker but he's not one of the 3 best in the world, not by a long shot.

Well, Rooney is not a striker first of all.

But who are the 3 "stoppers" that are better in central defence than John Terry?

England's problem is depth. But they do have some world class players. More than they usually have if you look back at the last 40 years.

[NPE]

Just to add a little fuel to the debate. This was taken from ESPN/soccer today....

Steven Gerrard believes a limit on the number of foreign players in English domestic football would benefit the national team. Several figures including Sepp Blatter, the president of world governing body FIFA, and Manchester United manager Sir Alex Ferguson have called for the number of overseas players in the Premier League to be capped.

The issue has proved particularly pertinent with England in serious danger of failing to qualify for Euro 2008.

Liverpool star Gerrard, who is currently captaining England in the absence of injured John Terry, stopped short of calling for such restrictions but can see their merits.

'I'm sure it won't do any harm and I'm sure it would help the national team,' he said.

'We want as many homegrown players in that league as possible.

'I think there is a risk of too many foreign players coming over, which would affect our national team eventually if it's not already.

'It is important we keep producing players. There is no point having the best league in the world if the national team is going to suffer in the long run.'

Michael Owen, one of the few members of the England squad to have actually played overseas himself, accepted the best foreign players had made a positive contribution to the Premier League.

And although he had no doubt the very best youngsters would make it to the top, he was concerned some players who had a chance of making the grade would have their progress hindered.

'We all want one thing at the end of the day, we want our national team to be very good and our league to be good,' he told a press conference televised by Sky Sports News.

'The foreigners have helped raise the standard of our game but if you want to be greedy you would want English players to raise that standard further.

'You always think to yourself the top English players will come through and play but there are some who are late developers and they get pushed to the back of the queue because there are too many foreign players.'