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south africa out as host of wc 2010


snake

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fifa 2010 evaluation team is arriving in jo burg this month

they will check on progress reagarding

1.new stadium construction

not one stadium has broken ground.if they started now there still would not be time to complete by june 2010

2.security country wide during the tourney

none

its common knowledge with fifa that they will move the tourney to austrailia.

that half spot in concacaf would get a hell of a lot easier without austrailia.

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I suggest you take a look. In fact all new stadiums are well on their way. Also of the eight, three are existing stadiums getting some renovation.

http://www.sa2010.gov.za/southafrica/slideshow.php

On security, keep in mind that South Africa successfully hosted the rugby World Cup not that many years ago.

The will is also there from Fifa to make this work. The same can be said for World Cup 2014 in Brazil.

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<mod>

Lot of forum overlap with this topic but since CONCACAF hasn't even started WCQ yet I think this sub-forum is a more appropriate area for this topic.

Cheeta

</mod>

P.S. I'd be stunned if South Africa lost the WC. Absolutely stunned but I guess you never know. It would take something way more serious than a few shoddy looking stadiums cobbled together on the quick. FIFA politics trumps all other legitimate concerns once you factor in the dollars and cents which comes with prime time coverage of the WC in Europe.

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The WC in South Africa is to Sepp Blatter what giving China the Olympics was to Samaranch. It's their legacy project and as such, it's not going to be moved anywhere unless all the stadiums crumble to the ground.

Now...do I think this tournament belongs in South Africa....NO. But Sepp's not interested in my opinion so this will be a World Cup which I choose not to attend, regardless of whether Canada qualifies or not. South Africa is simply not a safe country. This is not an uninformed opinion. This is based on 1st hand experience ( I travelled to Joberg and Port Elizabeth several years ago for business ) but, more importantly, this opinion of South Africa is based on what i've been told by dozens of South Africans whom I know personally. There are many South Africans who are worried that their country will be disgraced due to the high levels of criminality that will inevitably result in negative news stories.

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Guest Jeffery S.
quote:Originally posted by VPjr

The WC in South Africa is to Sepp Blatter what giving China the Olympics was to Samaranch. It's their legacy project and as such, it's not going to be moved anywhere unless all the stadiums crumble to the ground.

Now...do I think this tournament belongs in South Africa....NO. But Sepp's not interested in my opinion so this will be a World Cup which I choose not to attend, regardless of whether Canada qualifies or not. South Africa is simply not a safe country. This is not an uninformed opinion. This is based on 1st hand experience ( I travelled to Joberg and Port Elizabeth several years ago for business ) but, more importantly, this opinion of South Africa is based on what i've been told by dozens of South Africans whom I know personally. There are many South Africans who are worried that their country will be disgraced due to the high levels of criminality that will inevitably result in negative news stories.

I suggest that if we qualify we give our place to another team, for security reasons. I am sure External Affairs will advise us it is too dangerous for Canadians. Like they did when we opted out of the Copa America in Colombia. We don't want to risk our players' lives just to play in a World Cup.

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quote:Originally posted by VPjr

South Africa is simply not a safe country. This is not an uninformed opinion. This is based on 1st hand experience ( I travelled to Joberg and Port Elizabeth several years ago for business )

[:o)] So what near-death experience(s) did you have during your business trip? Enquiring minds want to know...

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Well, I am more inclined to buy what someone who has been there is telling me rather than someone who hasn't.

Look, its no secret why South Africa was awarded the WC. Africa was instrumental in getting the votes to elect Sepp Blatter. In exchange for votes, Blatter promised a WC in Africa. And he cleverly carried it out, or conned the world, by instituting that bogus continental rotation scheme for the world Cup in order to ensure that he followed through on his debt. Then, very predictably, barely 3-4 years after, he dropped ( for no valid reason) the notion of rotating the WC.

Therefore, South Africa was up against only Morocco and EGYPT for the right to host in 2010. Obviously, for reasons of infrastructures, economics and logistics, no one on that continent other than South Africa stood a chance. Based on merit, despites its well documented socio economic problems, South Africa was the best of a bad lot. In short, awarding the WC to South Africa was all about Blatter putting his own personal interests ahead of the sport.

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quote:Originally posted by amacpher

[:o)] So what near-death experience(s) did you have during your business trip? Enquiring minds want to know...

There were no life threatening experiences to report but I can tell you that we were transported in armoured SUVs everywhere we went, at the insistence of the people who invited us. We visited a factory that was located just on the outskirts of a major slum and we were accompanied by 2 armed guards (employed by that factory's owner) for our protection. It was all a bit unnerving. The poverty we saw was obscene. The wealth on display in some parts of town was pretyy obscene too, which just makes the poverty look worse. I'm sure that we did not see the worst of the worst because there was no good reason to take us to those parts of town.

In fairness, Port Elizabeth was not too bad, at least what I saw. It's a port town, just like anywhere in the world. Lots of industry. I didn't see where people lived.

You can feel free to Go to South Africa if you wish. I've been there, done that. I will enjoy the WC from the comfort of my couch, thank you very much. The only place that made me as nervous as Johanesburg was my visit to Caracas, Venezuela and I don't plan to return their if I don't have to either. For the sake of South Africa, I hope they get the situation sorted out. My business associates who live there have their doubts but they are hopeful because they don't want to see their country embarrased.

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Well, South Africa is a better candidate than the USA. Now that was embarrassing!

Perhaps they are not the best option, but you can't have the World Cup in England or Spain every time.

Oh, and feeling "unsafe" in a new country is nothing unique. I think we all feel a little on-edge when we're in new surroundings. Of course this is also known as irrational fear.

Man, I just re-read this entire thread and it was a good laugh. I look forward to hearing the same paranoia and dooms-day predictions leading - up to Brasil 2014. [:P]

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quote:Originally posted by amacpher

Well, South Africa is a better candidate than the USA. Now that was embarrassing!

Perhaps they are not the best option, but you can't have the World Cup in England or Spain every time.

Oh, and feeling "unsafe" in a new country is nothing unique. I think we all feel a little on-edge when we're in new surroundings. Of course this is also known as irrational fear.

Man, I just re-read this entire thread and it was a good laugh. I look forward to hearing the same paranoia and dooms-day predictions leading - up to Brasil 2014. [:P]

What was so embarrasing about the WC in the US?

And, as for feeling unsafe in new surroundings, I've visited 19 different countries in my business travels. South Africa, Colombia and Venezuela were the only places where the people who invited me insisted on providing security details and armored vehicles. I'm not the nervous type but when the locals tell you to watch your back, don't wear jewelry, rings or watches in public, etc.... you tend to feel a bit uptight. Nothing irrational there.

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

I suggest that if we qualify we give our place to another team, for security reasons. I am sure External Affairs will advise us it is too dangerous for Canadians. Like they did when we opted out of the Copa America in Colombia. We don't want to risk our players' lives just to play in a World Cup.

I sincerely hope you were taking the piss here.

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quote:Originally posted by VPjr

What was so embarrasing about the WC in the US?

And, as for feeling unsafe in new surroundings, I've visited 19 different countries in my business travels. South Africa, Colombia and Venezuela were the only places where the people who invited me insisted on providing security details and armored vehicles. I'm not the nervous type but when the locals tell you to watch your back, don't wear jewelry, rings or watches in public, etc.... you tend to feel a bit uptight. Nothing irrational there.

It's mostly irrational fear. You're presumably staying in nice hotels in nice neighbourhoods which, even in the poorest nations, are pretty safe.

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quote:Originally posted by amacpher

It's mostly irrational fear. You're presumably staying in nice hotels in nice neighbourhoods which, even in the poorest nations, are pretty safe.

As much as I realize you are just trying to piss VPJr off, I`ll ask anyway. Have you ever visited South Africa?

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I've been to Mexico numerous times for work and vacation (all over the country, not just resort towns). I've spent considerable time in Mexico City, which is a city with alot of problems. However, I never felt as unnerved in Mexico City as I did in Johanesburg and I never required a security detail. But, the problems that plague Mexico (out of control crime, massive disparity between rich and poor) are very similar to those that plague S.Africa so maybe I'm just lucky that I've had such good experiences in Mexico.

I'm hopeful that S. Africa will make a good host for WC2010. I'd hate to see a country fall on its face in front of the world.

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quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

As much as I realize you are just trying to piss VPJr off, I`ll ask anyway. Have you ever visited South Africa?

No, but I've been to the poorest nation in South America and it seems surprisingly safe (once the irrational fear that the locals and media had put in your head before you arrived, wears off).

Of the dozen or so people I know who live and have lived in Africa for years, the worse story from any of them was getting mugged and beat-up by four guys while jogging in Joberg (but even he admitted it was stupid to jog at night in that deserted area). I've noticed that most of them have the same view: that other cities and countries in Africa are very dangerous, but where they live it is fairly safe.

If the fear from a one-week visit is so high that you'd miss the World Cup for it, then either its irrational or nobody would live their entire lives in South Africa without getting murdered at least once. ;)

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quote:Originally posted by amacpher

If the fear from a one-week visit is so high that you'd miss the World Cup for it, then either its irrational or nobody would live their entire lives in South Africa without getting murdered at least once. ;)

Precisely.

People are talking about South Africa as if it is an active war zone.

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quote:Originally posted by Rudi

Precisely.

People are talking about South Africa as if it is an active war zone.

I agree that there is a certain lobby that wants the WC moved and is criticizing South Africa at every corner. I also agree with some posters that FIFA's motives for choosing South Africa were less than pure. On the other hand I am happy that this country is getting the tournament and if we qualify and I can get tickets I will go. Hopefully it will be a positive thing for South Africa. However, I also know a lot of people who have lived or visited South Africa and what they have told me is not that different from what VPjr is saying. I don't agree with his opinion that it shouldn't be held in South Africa. I also don't think the WC should be exclusively held in rich, safe countries. I expect there will be a lot of security at the WC and that the South African government will do a lot to make sure it is a success. Hopefully there will not be major problems and the tournament will be beneficial to South Africa in its development.

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Grizzly, I don't believe that the WC should be held exclusively in Rich countries, but it would be a good idea to hold it in countries with adequate infrastructure to handle the massive influx of people that will be flooding into the country. South Africa does not have it and, from what I've read, the biggest fear many South Africans express is that the country will be paralyzed by massive transportation gridlock because the major investments in roads, commuter trains, airports, etc... that are needed to pull off an event of this scale are unlikely to be completed in time. Does the government have the money to ensure that the legacy that this tournament will leave is more than just new or renovated soccer stadiums? I have no doubt that the soccer facilities will be very nice. As a Canadian, I will be jealous of those stadiums. But will travellers have the ability to shuttle between cities in relative safety. This is important. I have the same concerns for Brazil in 2014 but for some reason, I believe that WC2014 will be a success whereas I have concerns for WC2010.

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quote:Originally posted by VPjr

This is important. I have the same concerns for Brazil in 2014 but for some reason, I believe that WC2014 will be a success whereas I have concerns for WC2010.

I don't really understand this, as Brazil is not as wealthy as South Africa.

And guys, I'm not speaking from a position of ignorance here. Both my parents are South African, and I have been there a few times myself. Like everywhere else, it has its good areas and bad areas, although the bad areas in RSA are far more extreme than a lot of other places (not more than Brazil, though).

The infrastructure issue is a big one, but not insurmountable. Time will tell, I suppose.

But should Canada qualify, I'll be there. No doubt about it.

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Both Brazil and South Africa will be fine in my opinion.

I can speak to Brazil's ability because I know Brazil quite well. I have business interests in Brazil and my wife is from Sao Paulo. First off, don't use GDP per capita as evidence of Brazil's inability to accumulate captital. Yes, there is a huge part of the population that is extremely poor (but they are also beginning to do better slowly). There is also a wealthy elite with interests in seeing this event occur (FYI, there are more billionaires in the Greater Sao Paulo area that in all of Ontario). I have no doubts that the required stadiums will be built and renovations completed but because of foreign media doubts and political posturing, we will no doubt hear otherwise from time to time.

As for security, there are areas of Sao Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, and other major cities that anyone should stay away from and there are precautions that everyone takes that might be a little disconcerting at first for niave individuals from the developed world. Still, as a middle-aged Canadian with limited knowledge of Portuguese, I have been downtown in Sao Paulo on Rua Augusta after midnight more than once and survived.

Finally, in the case of Brazil, the tournament is 2014. That is still seven years away. I expect that Brazil will look substantially different in 2014 from today. There are a lot of changes happening (politically, socially, and economically) in Brazil and a lot of those are below the surface. Brazil became a democracy again in 1985 after a couple decades of military rule. That new democracy took almost 10 years to stabilize politically. The economy has been on a path to stabilization since 1993 and only began to show significant results over the past 4-7 years. While there will continue to be economic cycles in the future, the wild economic gyrations of the past will likely stay history.

I have no doubts that the 2014 tournament will take place in Brazil as the 2010 tournament will take place in South Africa. Who knows? I might even consider hosting something if Canada makes it.

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