Here we go again on the Canadian front....

[Gian-Luca]

I watched Gol Tv's Extra Time last night to see Paul James passionately explain why it would be wrong for TFC to drop back their Canadian content and how annoyed he will be if this should happen. I thought it curious that he was talking about it as though it might actually happen and now I see this:

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/271046

which says that they are actually in talks with MLS.

Right now TFC can already field up to 10 non-Canadians. Any expansion of the foreign content, even by one spot, would make it possible for TFC to field an entirely non-Canadian roster if they wanted.

If they are going to change the rules, then make it so Canadians and Americans would count as domestics across the league, as it was in the NASL days. But don't reduce TFC's domestic content while keeping everyone else the same. I don't know that the latter is what is being proposed, but keep in mind it is already the case with the three extra non-domestic spots.

[Andrew W]

I was so passionately behind this franchise's inclusion in MLS because of the promise it held for Canadian players. And honestly, it had very little to do with expanding the MNT player pool which I've always believed is not the job of club teams, but a happy side-product.

BTW, could you somewhat paraphrase what Paul James said in why he believed it would be wrong.

One thing that really bothered me from the article was referring to the Canadian content rule as a "problem".

[Gian-Luca]

Hopefully the segment will be on-line soon so that everyone will be able to see (right now on the Goltv.ca website it isn't up yet), but basically he felt TFC have a duty to develop Canadian talent, particularly with Canada being the country in the world that has the biggest problem in providing professional development for its young players. He acknowledged that they also have a duty to field a competitive team, but that even with the domestic rules being what they are, any problems by an alleged limited Canadian talent pool can be overcome by skillful coaching and skillful management.

He doesn't say it, but that obviously implies that he believe TFC haven't received that (or won't) from Mo Johnston, and that you shouldn't change the roster rules after one year (for an expansion team that did much better than the previous two expansion teams did) because of one coach/manager's views on Canadian talent.

[Cheeta]

Can't think of any reason why the other MLS owners would want to give TFC any sort of break with player recruitment unless the adjustment (whatever it is) also benefits them. So if collectively they feel one less domestic helps everybody out (and I think it would) then I think we're doomed.

But then again maybe all Mo is referring to is an expected clarification from the league regarding how "resident" foreign players in Canada will be catalogued. MLS views foreign players holding green cards as US domestics and I think it's fair to say foreign players who receive permanent residency in Canada should also be treated by the league as though they are domestic Canadian players. With Dichio and Wynn both living in Ontario year round now they both could receive residency recognition from Immigration and WHAM-OH, Trader Mo has instantly added two "Canadian" players to his roster without even getting out of bed.

Not good for us, but fair is fair and all the more reason to fear any reduction in domestic quotas.

MLS is evolving. No doubt about it but Geezus they do some weird ****.

In the one hand they have a player salary cap which has served the league well but is now a hindrance in recruiting quality players while with the other hand they write the "Beckham Rule". I get the idea but I skeptical about it's real usefulness. I think we can expect that the salary cap will be increased substantially this off season and that more than anything else (including any reduction in required domestics) will help TFC instantly.

[An Observer]

I think if they keep the rule for US players on the American teams but scale back the restrictions for the number of Canadian players, they may run into problems with Immigration Canada.

I personally would still like to see Canadians/Americans treated as the same across the whole league. I think that would open many more spots for Canadians over time and also help with developing Canadian talent for new franchises in Montreal and Vancouver. I also think its fair.

Right now, if your a player like Tyler Hemming, you may not get a chance as Wynne is in front of you and you won't make it as a SI spot on another MLS side. However, you could make it as a domestic player somewhere else in the MLS.

I realise the Americans may resist it but with the additional teams coming on board in the next few years they probably need to widen their talent pool anyway. And adding Canadians as domestic players could help with that.

[Richard]

If the league is going to operate seamlessly in the USA and Canada then it is only right that both Americans and Canadians be regarded as domestic players on both sides of the border. It's not as if there is a large pool of Canadian talent waiting to flood the US and take jobs away from American players but the reverse might pertain. I think the increased opportunity for Canadian players makes it worth the risk from our point of view.

[CanadasBest]

I agree with Paul James on this.

Mo gets no sympathy for me. To build a team full of Canadians to make the grade you have got to be able to attract the top Canadian players to the franchise. This first year and the tremendous fan support has gone a long way to making that a reality. That being said Mo can't do stupid things like trade away Serioux and then complain that both his back line and talent pool of Canadians is too shallow.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by gwallace76

I agree with Paul James on this.

Mo gets no sympathy for me. To build a team full of Canadians to make the grade you have got to be able to attract the top Canadian players to the franchise. This first year and the tremendous fan support has gone a long way to making that a reality. That being said Mo can't do stupid things like trade away Serioux and then complain that both his back line and talent pool of Canadians is too shallow.

I'm a Mo defender but I totally disagree with him on this subject. I believe that we can find the young Canadians we need. Hemmings and Gala surprised us all near the end of the season with their quality play.

We knew what we were getting into when we joined this league. We have to live up to our commitment and I don't like asking the league for charity ... and I believe that charity is exactly what it is!

Regarding Serioux, RoB was a very tempting morsel so I do understand the move but it would have been nice to have had Serious around but at the same time, where would this team have been without RoB?

[CanadianSwede]

Mo needs to sign Gerba. His inactivty in the Swedish League is a pity since he performed well during the Gold Cup. In my opinion from what i have seen of Gerba he's better than Samuels and is a Canadian.

By the way, Did Milosevic sign for Toronto?

Cheers

[Gian-Luca]

Nope, and reports suggest that he may not, if at all, until the spring.

[JPB]

What are the Canadian / American content rules, if any, for the USL?

[blizzard88]

I'm not the biggest Mo supporter and i agree that he should find some better Canadians, rather than complaining about the ones he's got.

However, i do agree with him here. I think it would be better for all Canadians he they were seen as domestic players throughout the MLS.

Canadians are not considered by MLS Coaches not named Yallop. All current Canadians got there MLS job through Yallop.

TFC will always have to field Canadians because the fans will want to see Canadian players.

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by JPB

What are the Canadian / American content rules, if any, for the USL?

They all count equally as domestic players.

[Free kick]

Well This would be a a major setback for the game in Canada.

What bugs me is that MLS was not what it is today when it started off. So why aren't Canadian players and national programs be afforded the same level of patience that American players were afforded at that time?. In 5-10 years from now, there is no doubt that with players of the of likes of DeGuzman, DD, Stalteri and Hutch coming through the system, TFC would be contending for the MLS title consistently. I am prepared to be patient and wait. More so given that they have a 16000 season ticket base and waiting list of 5K. MLSEL are not in financial trouble and in an urgency to produce a winner. So why change the rules after only one year?

Personally, I would not consider my investment in tickets worth the while if there were no benefits to the national programs. Without a guarantee that there will be Canadians or future national team Canadians on this team, my emotional involvement in this team would drop to only slight better than that of seeing two Euro sides playing in one of those Champions World games put on by promoters.

I did not expect a miracles from the Canadian contingent going into the season aside from Brennan and Sutton. And, I agree, that the contributions from the Canadian content(collectively) was not as good as I thought it would be. I might even go as far to agree that it hurt the team's playoff chances because the biggest Achilles heel of the team was its depth ( witnessed by the large number on injuries) and the team depth consisted of Canadians. But I am prepared to be patient and wait for players to develop and hope, in the short term, that we can repatriate some talent.

I am not pleased with this idea nor the idea of going the way of USL where by both Canadians and Americans are treated the same. Canada would loose out badly in this scenario because of population differences, climate etc and because, by having TFC in MLS, you could house a core of players who would gain a great familiarity with each other and bring that to the national team. This would have been a big big plus for us in WCQ preparation.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by An Observer

I personally would still like to see Canadians/Americans treated as the same across the whole league. I think that would open many more spots for Canadians over time and also help with developing Canadian talent for new franchises in Montreal and Vancouver. I also think its fair.

I am assuming that you are alluding to the idea similar to what the USL has implemented whereby Canadians and Americans are considered for al intents and purposes the same nationality. I have to disagree with this approach for the following reasons:

1) We would loose the advantage that we have in regards to having a bigger core of our national team pool housed in one team. Thats goes a very long way towards building a club atmosphere at the national level. this is something that you keep hearings is sought by every nation team selector. This advantage is the only hope that we have of ever upsetting the US in any WCQ'er. Our players would be more familiar with each other and better prepared than the americans.

2) Compared to the development systems in the US, ours really suck. We don't have anything comparable to the NCAA for CND players in the 18-23 age groups. The impact of your suggestion, could be applied to Football players. Its the strict import quotas of the CFL that develops quality Canadian talent because its only on a CFL team playing alongside the others that Canadians get better. The CIAU has little impact because its season is to short and the talent level is too dispersed and diluted.

How many Canadians play in the NFL? Handfull maybe? If we go with your idea, then you could on day see the same percentage of Canadians in MLS. If there ever were to be world championships in Football, our fortunes would rest on the CFL players and their quality is a result of CFL import quota.

3) The US has a major advantage because of its climate. In large states like California, Florida and the Carolinas players can play year round.

4) $$$$

[Richard]

Toronto FC has no obligation to the Canadian national team program other than perhaps indirectly through it's promised youth academy. TFC is a for profit business, like every other MLS and USL team and as such they look to assemble the best group of players they can to fill their stadium on game day and make a profit, irrespective of Canada-USA nationality. MLS and USL are trans-national, neither is a domestic Canadian league like the CFL which makes your comparison irrelevant. Quotas based on Canada-USA nationality are fundamentally anti-competitive and unfair in that they effectively impose much more severe limitations on Canadian teams than their US competitors. I also suggest they are contrary to NAFTA or at least the spirit of NAFTA.

[Guest Ed]

I couldn't care less about how many Cdns are on Toronto FC. BUT, and a big BUT, I do care when their coach goes around bad-mouthing the amount of Cdn talent available and applies that logic to wiggle out of Cdn quotas agreed upon before the team was started. He could have picked up some major (for MLS at least) Cdn talent overseas with the money he spent in the UK.

[Guest Ed]

I couldn't care less about how many Cdns are on Toronto FC. BUT, and a big BUT, I do care when their coach goes around bad-mouthing the amount of Cdn talent available and applies that logic to wiggle out of Cdn quotas agreed upon before the team was started. He could have picked up some major (for MLS at least) Cdn talent overseas with the money he spent in the UK.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Toronto FC has no obligation to the Canadian national team program other than perhaps indirectly through it's promised youth academy.

They do have an obligation to develop Canadian talent and provide Canadian talent a place to play, whether that transpires directly to the national team isn't really the issue but a likely side effect. They have stated that themselves (I think it's even mentioned as a goal on the team website) and they knew that coming in. Let's remember that they only got involved with MLS because of the CSA's initiative, and there's no way this team happens unless the goal of improving Canadian talent & player pool is there right from the start.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Toronto FC has no obligation to the Canadian national team program other than perhaps indirectly through it's promised youth academy.

They do have an obligation to develop Canadian talent and provide Canadian talent a place to play, whether that transpires directly to the national team isn't really the issue but a likely side effect. They have stated that themselves (I think it's even mentioned as a goal on the team website) and they knew that coming in. Let's remember that they only got involved with MLS because of the CSA's initiative, and there's no way this team happens unless the goal of improving Canadian talent & player pool is there right from the start.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

I also suggest they are contrary to NAFTA or at least the spirit of NAFTA.

Not a chance. Only in the EU is labour mobility part of the trade agreement. The spirit of NAFTA is about the free movement of Capital not Labour.

American soccer players are foreign workers in Canada unless a reciprocal agreement is made under which Canadians are considered domestic in the US. It is why USL can do what they do. Having a set of rules that restricts Canadian players in the US while removing those same restictions in Canada for American's is against the law as it exists now.

[Gian-Luca]

Here's something I posted on usector board which is germane to this discussion about TFC's responsibility to develop Canadian talent & give Canadians a place to play:

TFC isn't Arsenal and Canada isn't England. Our circumstances and our situation is very different. TFC were brought into being expressly for the purpose of developing Canadian talent which would in turn "help Canada climb up the FIFA rankings" (to paraphrase what MLSE officials themselves would often say when justifying the government cash that was going into building a professional sports team's stadium). We all knew (or ought to have known) going in that the team was being started partly for that purpose (the other purpose being making money of course) so even if you aren't a fan of the CMNT, IMO you should be accepting of the fact that TFC is here to benefit Canadian soccer as a whole, which includes the nats.

Let's not forget in this period where it is considered the height of fashion to bash the CSA, that bringing the MLS to Canada was a CSA initiative (one which a great many Canadians were against, incidentally) that was basically funded in part by the community - because let's face it, the team is only here because of a largely Canadian government funded stadium, funding which received a ton of criticism and was always justified by the government and MLSE on the basis of helping the national team in the rankings and giving Canadian soccer players a chance to play. If you are suggesting that there is no responsibility at all for MLSE to develop Canadian players, then I think you are forgetting the origins of this team & how it came to be.

Whether that duty or responsibility can best be served by treating all North American players as domestic across the league or by the current domestic set-up per country remains to be seen - but that doesn't mean the responsibility isn't there.

[jpg75]

Haven't MLSE/TFC refered to the CSA at times as a "partner"? As cheesy as it sounds, it's probably not far from the truth. Soccer hasn't "made it" yet in Canada, and it's in the interest of both parties to work together towards a set of common goals (ie. sustained growth of soccer in Canada). If that means making sure there are Canadians on TFC for the benefit of the customers and/or National teams then i think that's not too much to ask.

[jimmynow]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

He could have picked up some major (for MLS at least) Cdn talent overseas with the money he spent in the UK.

name names.

Who could he have picked up for 200-300K for an expansion team in a league everyone considers second rate? who was out of contract and available? He got Jimmy B but Jimmy B took a pay cut and was in the latter stages of his career.

Unless you've got connections and you know players who he could have had, you don't know who he could have signed.

I personally asked Issey Nakajima Farran about coming to MLS. Recently Issey was out of contract and then he signed on for another three years overseas. He said he had no interest in MLS at this time.

It's not as easy as you say.

Maybe now that TFC is established and the salary cap may be rising, and the fans have proven to be great (and there was NO indication of sellouts and great atmosphere to attract players last December), they can do a better sell job to canadians overseas.

I just think too many people aren't looking at the circumstances of an expansion side.

I'm also a believer in spreading out canadians amongst all MLS teams.

someone in this thread said it seems like MLS might lower the number of canadians. But most of the articles and discussion I've seen on this topic (I think Paul Beirne made this point once, and Garber talked about it) is that Canadians and Americans would be domestics.

Do people believe that's worse than TFC hording all the Canadians and Mo Johnston being the "decider" on all of our canadian talent?

The last thing you want is every good young canadian being coached by one man. You'd much prefer canadians throughout MLS, all being taught by different coaches, all experiencing different styles. You'd also want 14 teams scouting canadians and not 1 team.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

They do have an obligation to develop Canadian talent and provide Canadian talent a place to play, whether that transpires directly to the national team isn't really the issue but a likely side effect. They have stated that themselves (I think it's even mentioned as a goal on the team website) and they knew that coming in. Let's remember that they only got involved with MLS because of the CSA's initiative, and there's no way this team happens unless the goal of improving Canadian talent & player pool is there right from the start.

There may be some moral obligation but there is nothing contractual or legal I'll wager. As soon as money becomes an issue if it's not in writing it goes right out the window. Any obligation to develop youth players is only because MLS requires it, anything else is just MLSE being nice and cooperative. Most fans don't really care too much about player's nationalities, it's performance on the field that counts at the end of the day in the professional sports entertainment business.