CanWest Plagarizes Ben Knight: Soccer shakeup come

[Stephen LaRose]

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/sports/story.html?id=c63853d5-e20e-4722-90c4-1c694b0698a3

[Vic]

quote:

So what's in it for the clubs? Simple. They will be able to develop their own talent and, should a player become too good for either the United league or MLS, they will be sold to Europe.

Develop their own talent. That's quite funny. Grassroots and local clubs will pickup these kids at 7, and put 10 years of competitive coaching into them. And then a decade later, Bobby Lenarduzzi will showup with a piece of paper and a big smile and put them in residence for a Summer and then sell them off around the world to pad his wallet.

You want to put kids in residence, great. You want to do it to make your team stronger, great. You want to preach the Lord and talk about doing it for the good of the kids and the game and the country, great. But you want to waltz in and do the sign-and-dash and treat kids like chattel, not great.

I would love to read one of those residence contracts.

[Danny Boy]

quote:Originally posted by Vic

Develop their own talent. That's quite funny. Grassroots and local clubs will pickup these kids at 7, and put 10 years of competitive coaching into them. And then a decade later, Bobby Lenarduzzi will showup with a piece of paper and a big smile and put them in residence for a Summer and then sell them off around the world to pad his wallet.

You want to put kids in residence, great. You want to do it to make your team stronger, great. You want to preach the Lord and talk about doing it for the good of the kids and the game and the country, great. But you want to waltz in and do the sign-and-dash and treat kids like chattel, not great.

I would love to read one of those residence contracts.

As if they are the only club in this world trying to profit from developing talent. Believe me those kids would love to play for Bayern or Barca over the Whitecaps anyday. If the Caps make a little coin in the process good for them.

[Ivan]

quote:Originally posted by Vic

Develop their own talent. That's quite funny. Grassroots and local clubs will pickup these kids at 7, and put 10 years of competitive coaching into them. And then a decade later, Bobby Lenarduzzi will showup with a piece of paper and a big smile and put them in residence for a Summer and then sell them off around the world to pad his wallet.

You want to put kids in residence, great. You want to do it to make your team stronger, great. You want to preach the Lord and talk about doing it for the good of the kids and the game and the country, great. But you want to waltz in and do the sign-and-dash and treat kids like chattel, not great.

It was obvious at the U20s that our current player development system doesn't work.

[Guest speedmonk42]

quote:Originally posted by Vic

Develop their own talent. That's quite funny. Grassroots and local clubs will pickup these kids at 7, and put 10 years of competitive coaching into them. And then a decade later, Bobby Lenarduzzi will showup with a piece of paper and a big smile and put them in residence for a Summer and then sell them off around the world to pad his wallet.

You want to put kids in residence, great. You want to do it to make your team stronger, great. You want to preach the Lord and talk about doing it for the good of the kids and the game and the country, great. But you want to waltz in and do the sign-and-dash and treat kids like chattel, not great.

I would love to read one of those residence contracts.

So read one. And if there is something wrong with it, tell us.

Don't just post like a whining b#tch. If you have proof of something bad tell us.

Why on earth would it be so bad if they facilitated getting these kids into pro soccer?

There is a truly a whole generation of people in soccer that just need to get old and fcking die before we can move on.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Vic

Develop their own talent. That's quite funny. Grassroots and local clubs will pickup these kids at 7, and put 10 years of competitive coaching into them. And then a decade later, Bobby Lenarduzzi will showup with a piece of paper and a big smile and put them in residence for a Summer and then sell them off around the world to pad his wallet.

You want to put kids in residence, great. You want to do it to make your team stronger, great. You want to preach the Lord and talk about doing it for the good of the kids and the game and the country, great. But you want to waltz in and do the sign-and-dash and treat kids like chattel, not great.

I would love to read one of those residence contracts.

I think you need to inform yourself better about the Whitecaps youth programs which begin at the under 6 year old level. I challenge you to name any other club in Canada that operates programs from U-6 to fulltime pro. Surely you don't really believe that the Whitecaps don't realise that if they identify and bring on a real talent, that player will look to play at a higher level than USL-1 if he/she can? The Whitecaps would be thrilled and do all they can to make it happen and have said so publicly repeatedly when talking about the residency program to those who will listen (which clearly doesn't include you). Why can't you accept that some people actually do have a wider vision for the game in Canada and player development than their narrow, parochial club interest and are willing to put their money where their mouth is?

[Vic]

And awaaaaaaaaay we go.

quote:

I think you need to inform yourself better about the Whitecaps youth programs which begin at the under 6 year old level.

Unfortunately I have a very good understanding of professional clubs and their youth development programs for 5-10 year olds.

quote:

As if they are the only club in this world trying to profit from developing talent.

Trust me, I have no problem with DEVELOPING TALENT for money. The difference is, taking players in at U17 for resale is not DEVELOPING TALENT. None of the players in residency is or ever will be from the Whitecaps U6 team, U10 team, or U12 team.

quote:

Believe me those kids would love to play for Bayern or Barca over the Whitecaps anyday. If the Caps make a little coin in the process good for them.

Yeah, that's right. They're going to put them on Barcelona. Through the Whitecaps. Because the highway between Vancouver and Southern Spain is paved and four lane. Walk into Nou Camp and scream Whitecaps FC and I'm sure all the Catlunyans will come over and buy you a beer.

quote:

It was obvious at the U20s that our current player development system doesn't work.

You may find it obvious that our current player development system doesn't work based on one tournament result. Other people called it bad coaching and unprepared players. Bad tactics. Unlucky mistakes. A weak crop. The truth is probably it's a bit of everything. Our boy's and girl's youth teams have done great in the past. And our Men's team is doing fine now.

quote:

Don't just post like a whining b#tch. If you have proof of something bad tell us. Why on earth would it be so bad if they facilitated getting these kids into pro soccer? There is a truly a whole generation of people in soccer that just need to get old and fcking die before we can move on.

Proof of something bad? Hello? Earth to whining bey*tch. Come in. Did you read Lenarduzzi's quotes? It's in plain English. I said I would love to read one, i.e. I would love to read one. i.e. put the words together and take the meaning. If I meant they're evil I would have said it.

quote:

Why can't you accept that some people actually do have a wider vision for the game in Canada and player development than their narrow, parochial club interest and are willing to put their money where their mouth is?

Here comes the religion. The saints with the wider vision come marching in with their wallets to save the unclean masses. How breathtaking. I think I'm going to cry.

I repeat:

quote:

You want to put kids in residence, great. You want to do it to make your team stronger, great. You want to preach the Lord and talk about doing it for the good of the kids and the game and the country, great.

And because there are some people here with English translation problems, that means I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH DEVELOPING KIDS.

quote:

You want to waltz in and do the sign-and-dash and treat kids like chattel, not great.

But I have a big problem with anyone making a buck off taking kids in for a few months and selling them off like property. Granted that's a worst case scenario, but if it happens to one kid, yeah, it pisses me off.

You want to train kids, charge them for your training. You want kids to play on your professional team, offer them free training or something back. There's no need to own anyone or anything. There's a reason we have an eligibility draft, a minimum age, and a full slate of rules around minors and contracts in most North American professional sports.

[Gian-Luca]

I think the article is excellent & Starnes makes some good points about who the CSA is beholden to. Is the suggestion that this article is actually plagiarized from something Ben Knight wrote meant to be serious or facetious?

[Guest speedmonk42]

Yes Vic, when you see something bad happen tell us.

But why wank off about something that HASN'T happened yet.

There is clearly no 4 lane highway paved to the top Euro clubs. This is something that is just getting started.

Something has to break the catch-22. We have to start somewhere. The youth clubs can't even organize putting lights up at a field.

What is wrong with them taking a 17 year old kid on the bubble training them and acting as their agent?

Give me a good reason to tear it apart, and I will help you.

[Vic]

quote:

... and acting as their agent?

An agent? Almost nothing at all. I have no problem with taking an 18 year old and entering into a contract with them to act as their agent. I would rather see that at a regulated fair commission, but they're legal adults and can sign what they please.

quote:

They will be able to develop their own talent and, should a player become too good for either the United league or MLS, they will be sold to Europe.

That doesn't sound like an agent to me.

I've seen a lot of youth clubs that can't put up lights, but I've also seen a lot that put together pretty solid teams of national champions. Every player on every one of our national teams, and all those Canadians playing around the world came through the club system. And perhaps 1% of them went through a Canadian professional club to get there.

Training 60 teenagers is great. It would be nice if it was girl's too, but I don't expect to see that anytime soon. Just keep it legit, and respect the relationship with minors like other North American professional sports. No signing and selling.

[Guest speedmonk42]

Vic.

I think you are raising a good question here.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out. I can't say those who have funded the 86ers and Whitecaps have been 'in it for the money' over the years. Without all of them we wouldn't have the team today.

As for the youth clubs, all of them together have built something amazing really. And it is going to get better. The lights comment had to do with the fact I think there is a great deal more potential to be realized.

[Vic]

quote:

I think there is a great deal more potential to be realized.

Our best youth teams up to 13/14 can usually hold their own around the world, or come very close. It's in the mid-to-late teens that North Americans fall off, so like the MLS, anything that can keep the best players focused and trained properly is a good thing. I expect we'll hear a lot more and see a lot more players come to the stage.

[jpg75]

From what Eddie Edgar was saying, seems there's something holding kids back in Canada between the ages of 12-14 and the level of play relative to the rest of the world drops. What i'm concerned about is that the Whitecaps are waiting until 17 to get these kids in their program, that's 3-5 years in lowered training and development before they get in a pro environment. Toronto FC - if we're to believe Dobson - looks to be fielding a U16 team so we're bound to see some 15 year olds, but how many? Is that good enough to capture the top Canadians at that age?

I think we're still going to need the NTC's to identify talent in the pre-15 age groups and introduce them to a higher level of play before 16-17 when they catch on with a pro team. Maybe the NTC's scope should change to focus on the younger age groups from now on. If there are going to be 50+ kids in their late teens with the 3 pro clubs in Canada then do we really need the net of the NTC to catch another 100? Or should we drop the ages from 15-19 to 12-17? Then we get to kids 2-3 years earlier and the benefits that come with that such as seeing less drop off between our top pre-teens and those around the world. Plus we might get some of these "mercenary" kids in the system right away...the argument then becomes, is this too young to start? Does the CSA spend money to increase development of the top 100 pre-teens in this country when probably only a low percentage of them will develop into pro's?

[Gordon]

Developing young soccer players is about bulk. giving the most players possible the best training possible. Unfortunately our current structures tend to focus on the elite, picking out the best few dozen and giving them the opportunity. It is rare that the best 14 year olds, even the best 17 year olds if the results of the various U-17 WC's are to be believed, turn out to be the best adult players.

The biggest difference between soccer and hockey when it comes to development, is that young hockey players get high quality coaching relatively early in the development. Saskatchewan, for example, has put more players into the NHL over the years than any other region of the world on a per capita basis, add into that the number who play at a pretty high level but may not have made it to NHL and you have a pool of potentially very good coaches (not all pros make good coaches). This is true around most of the country and I think that it is oen fo the major reasons (there are others, including culture, access to facilities year round, relatively small number of nations playing etc. etc.) why hockey, with perhaps 1/3 of the kids playing compared to soccer, is able to produce so many world class players while soccer has no such results.

[Bxl Boy]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Developing young soccer players is about bulk. giving the most players possible the best training possible. Unfortunately our current structures tend to focus on the elite, picking out the best few dozen and giving them the opportunity. It is rare that the best 14 year olds, even the best 17 year olds if the results of the various U-17 WC's are to be believed, turn out to be the best adult players.

You have a very, very good point here !

[VPjr]

On the whole, i support the idea of Professional teams in North America establishing their own academies to develop players. IDEALLY, the primary purpose of these academies will be to develop young players with the ultimate goal of playing for that particular club's senior professional team. It's good for the growth of the sport in Canada to see young Canadians develop through a professional academy and into a senior team. It is a strong motivator to younger elite players to see that there truly is hope for them to become a pro if they are good enough and sufficiently committed.

I would prefer to see the 3 Canadian professional club's avoid following the business model employed by some smaller European clubs whereby their primary business is developing players and selling them to bigger clubs. In many cases, these "incubator" clubs feature a very weak senior team. The players who come through the academy often never play a day for the senior team.

I have no problems whatsoever with the team owning the player's rights in return for Free training, accomodation, etc... If they choose to try to earn a return on their investment by selling the player's rights to another club, so be it. It's really not that different than what happens in Major Junior Hockey. CHL clubs get a fat stipend when their players are drafted by pro teams.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by jpg75

From what Eddie Edgar was saying, seems there's something holding kids back in Canada between the ages of 12-14 and the level of play relative to the rest of the world drops. What i'm concerned about is that the Whitecaps are waiting until 17 to get these kids in their program, that's 3-5 years in lowered training and development before they get in a pro environment. Toronto FC - if we're to believe Dobson - looks to be fielding a U16 team so we're bound to see some 15 year olds, but how many? Is that good enough to capture the top Canadians at that age?

I think we're still going to need the NTC's to identify talent in the pre-15 age groups and introduce them to a higher level of play before 16-17 when they catch on with a pro team. Maybe the NTC's scope should change to focus on the younger age groups from now on. If there are going to be 50+ kids in their late teens with the 3 pro clubs in Canada then do we really need the net of the NTC to catch another 100? Or should we drop the ages from 15-19 to 12-17? Then we get to kids 2-3 years earlier and the benefits that come with that such as seeing less drop off between our top pre-teens and those around the world. Plus we might get some of these "mercenary" kids in the system right away...the argument then becomes, is this too young to start? Does the CSA spend money to increase development of the top 100 pre-teens in this country when probably only a low percentage of them will develop into pro's?

The Whitecaps are not waiting till kids are 17 years old before plucking them into their program. The PROSPECTS is the Whitecaps Youth Soccer Professional Development program.

PROSPECTS is subsidized by the Whitecaps. There are no training fees or restrictions and players are invited from all programs and regional clubs. With no financial or program barriers, participation in prospects is fluid and dynamic thus ensuring that the top performers are always in the program.

The club limits the number of prospects to players that are ready to meet the challenges and the lifestyle of top-level soccer. PROSPECTS operates in age development pools from U11 to U18 and is fully integrated with Whitecaps full time player programs (Men’s Residency and Women’s Prospects), and professional teams; Whitecaps Men and Whitecaps Women.

There is integration in staffing and training from U11 through to the men’s and women’s teams.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Developing young soccer players is about bulk. giving the most players possible the best training possible.

I don't know how many players will be admitted to the academy, but Craig Forrest mentioned on Saturday that TFC are inviting some 2000 kids from across the country to try out for it.

[jpg75]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

The Whitecaps are not waiting till kids are 17 years old before plucking them into their program. The PROSPECTS is the Whitecaps Youth Soccer Professional Development program.

PROSPECTS is subsidized by the Whitecaps. There are no training fees or restrictions and players are invited from all programs and regional clubs. With no financial or program barriers, participation in prospects is fluid and dynamic thus ensuring that the top performers are always in the program.

The club limits the number of prospects to players that are ready to meet the challenges and the lifestyle of top-level soccer. PROSPECTS operates in age development pools from U11 to U18 and is fully integrated with Whitecaps full time player programs (Men’s Residency and Women’s Prospects), and professional teams; Whitecaps Men and Whitecaps Women.

There is integration in staffing and training from U11 through to the men’s and women’s teams.

Thanks Richard. Out of curiousity, how many of the current residency players were elevated from the Whitecaps youth program?

[Richard]

I have no idea but I suspect not many if any so far. I would expect the whole program would have to run for ten years or so with the youngest ones going through the whole process before we see any significant number making it to the residency grade and the program is not that old yet, the Prospects program has only been in existence for a few years. The Whitecaps youth program is an ongoing work in progress and involves some very capable soccer folk.

For those with an interest in such things I really recommend browsing the Youth section of the Whitecaps website, it might be quite enlightening. That's where most of my information comes from (www.whitecapsfc.com/youth)

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

I don't know how many players will be admitted to the academy, but Craig Forrest mentioned on Saturday that TFC are inviting some 2000 kids from across the country to try out for it.

A very impressive number but not really meaningful if it is an open tryout and I can't see TFC sending out scouts to scour the whole country for youth prospects.

[jpg75]

Thanks to Coachrich for providing this document...It lays out the CSA development road map. Or atleast what they hope to achieve....

http://www.itsportsnet.com/leagues/6087/documents/CSALTDP.pdf

Page 23

Quote from T. Higgins

85% of 16 year olds who sign club contracts will not be pro by age 21.

Page 28 gives a break down of how many players they forecast at each age in some type of high level training environment.

2000 13 yr olds in Prov TC

1000 14 yr olds in PTC

550 15 yr olds in PTC

320 16 yr olds in PTC

150 in each of the 17 and 18 year old groups in NTC's.

150 professional players total. 40 of these would be in Top 10 leagues (including MLS)(?Maybe in 10+ years?)