Trillium Posted December 19, 2007 Author Share Posted December 19, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Richard Other people were talking about her coaching credentials and I asked some questions which resulted in my being accused of assassinating her. A man has a right to defend himself against such vitriol. As far as I am concerned, when it comes to Canadian soccer she is history, why do other people keep dragging up her name in that context? So you think FIFA choosing her to present at the GALA means she is history in terms of firsts in Canadian Soccer ? Richard you on other forums say you dont have the qualifications to judge Dale Mitchell yet you come on this topic and cast your opinions about Hoopers ablity to coach ..yet you have said you dont have the qualifications to judge coaches ? Are you confused ? I think you may well be so so upset at Hoopers ongoing success that you come here to vent your twisted views. Charmaine Hooper will continue to be part of Canadian Soccer History and will make more history in the future, its too bad you cant change your opinion, I hope you will have a epiphany over Christmas as you refelct on your year past and make resolutions for the new year...embrace the positive Richard it will do your heart and blood pressure well. PS did you see how ripped Marta looked in her photos ..darn she must train every day to have a muscled upper body ...to overpower her opponents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Ault Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Trillium Charmaine Hooper will continue to be part of Canadian Soccer History and will make more history in the future, Trillium, Trillium, Trillium, methinks thou doest protest too much Hooper was great and will always be a part of Canadian soccer history and she has certainly managed to keep herself in FIFA's "good" graces (not that that is a place everyone wants to be) but I'd be willing to bet breakfast she will not coach Canada in the foreseeable future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Trillium So you think FIFA choosing her to present at the GALA means she is history in terms of firsts in Canadian Soccer ? Richard you on other forums say you dont have the qualifications to judge Dale Mitchell yet you come on this topic and cast your opinions about Hoopers ablity to coach ..yet you have said you dont have the qualifications to judge coaches ? Are you confused ? I think you may well be so so upset at Hoopers ongoing success that you come here to vent your twisted views. Charmaine Hooper will continue to be part of Canadian Soccer History and will make more history in the future, its too bad you cant change your opinion, I hope you will have a epiphany over Christmas as you refelct on your year past and make resolutions for the new year...embrace the positive Richard it will do your heart and blood pressure well. PS did you see how ripped Marta looked in her photos ..darn she must train every day to have a muscled upper body ...to overpower her opponents. Where have I expressed any opinion about Hoopers ability to coach? I have asked what her coaching qualifications are and expressed the opinion that she is highly unlikely to be hired by the CSA for any coaching job considering what has transpired between her and the organisation in the past two years. I have criticised her behaviour during this period and been vindicated by the findings of the arbitrator. I have never cast any aspersions on her previous contribution to the WNT program, indeed I have made a point of acknowledging what she did in her earlier years, feel free to review my posts again. Neither have I ever said that she does not deserve a place in Canadian soccer history. How about you stop trying to find or fabricate issues where there are none or to attribute things to me that I have never said in your desperate attempt to find Charmaine Hooper innocent of everything and perfect - nobody is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trillium Posted December 19, 2007 Author Share Posted December 19, 2007 quote:Where have I expressed any opinion about Hoopers ability to coach? Posted - 09/26/2007 : 14:12:41 By Richard.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Setting aside any and all other issues I would not support somebody so inexperienced and ill-prepared for coaching from even being an assistant coach, let alone head coach. Geez now you know I think you expressed a pretty clear opinion...lets read that again carefully Richard... Setting aside, i.e. forget every other thing I ( Riohard ) have ever said. I ( Richard ) would not support somebody..so inexperienced and ill prepared for coaching ... Now Richard are you going to tell everyone that is not an opinion on her ability to coach ? If you are you need to go to remedial reading cause its an opinion on her ablity to coach..and its clear and vitrolic in my opinion. So dont try to be the voice of the reason now you are clearly in conflict with yourslef about your wavering views and opinions. Time to fess up Richard you did pass an opinion its there in black and white ... read it as many times as you wish it wont change. Ps Did you see how fit Marta is ? She was not in a highly touted residency program ... she must be self motivated going to Europe and training there ... to succeed, with only her lowly club coaches guiding her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanDouglas Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Trillium, I think you are missing the fundamental distinction between ability, experience, and credentials. Charmaine may have the ability to be a good coach, but until she demonstrates that ability by acquiring the necessary credentials and experience, she is not a good candidate for Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 "Setting aside any and all other issues I would not support somebody so inexperienced and ill-prepared for coaching from even being an assistant coach, let alone head coach." Nobody has been able to tell me what coaching certification or experience i.e. credentials, Charmaine Hooper has if any. Both of these I regard as essential preparation for coaching any national team. Perhaps you can enlighten us all Trillium? Until I see some hard, convincing evidence I remain of the opinion that she does not yet have the experience and preparation for a senior national team head or assistant coach position. Coaching kids at summer camps just doesn't cut it. Clearly you don't agree. To illustrate my point, here is an extract from the Olympic Coach job posting currently on the CSA website, note the first two qualifications regarded as essential: Qualifications Essential -Canadian Soccer Association A License or equivalent -Demonstrated record as a Soccer Head Coach with proven excellence of work -Effective verbal and written communication skills -Computer literate -Ability to work flexible hours, including weekends -Prepared to travel Preferred -Bilingual English/French http://www.canadasoccer.com/eng/notice/jobs.asp?sub2=9 None of this skepticism about her current suitability as a national team coach candidate in any way detracts from the kind of person she is or her future potential ability to do such a job very well once she has the credentials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 I don't see how anyone could consider Charmaine Hooper for coach at the present time. She was one of the greatest if not the greatest female players in Canadian history. She may indeed be a great coach now or sometime in the future. However, she was recently in a very serious conflict with the CSA and more importantly this conflict also affected her relationship with several of our top players. Regardless of whether this conflict was her fault or that of the CSA (probably a bit of both in my opinion) I don't think you can bring someone into a coaching position that has serious issues with many of our players. We have had so many problems on the men's side with players not getting along with and not playing for Ossieck and Yallop and we can't afford to do this on the women's side either. While most coach/player conflict occurs after a period of a couple years, in this situation there would be conflicts before she even ran her first practice. One day Hooper may indeed become WNT coach and may be a good coach but I can't see that happening until after many of the current players retire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 I don't see how anyone could consider Charmaine Hooper for coach at the present time. She was one of the greatest if not the greatest female players in Canadian history. She may indeed be a great coach now or sometime in the future. However, she was recently in a very serious conflict with the CSA and more importantly this conflict also affected her relationship with several of our top players. Regardless of whether this conflict was her fault or that of the CSA (probably a bit of both in my opinion) I don't think you can bring someone into a coaching position that has serious issues with many of our players. We have had so many problems on the men's side with players not getting along with and not playing for Ossieck and Yallop and we can't afford to do this on the women's side either. While most coach/player conflict occurs after a period of a couple years, in this situation there would be conflicts before she even ran her first practice. One day Hooper may indeed become WNT coach and may be a good coach but I can't see that happening until after many of the current players retire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Ault Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Thanks for bringing some sanity to the issue Grizzly. [)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearcatSA Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Bill Ault Thanks for bringing some sanity to the issue Grizzly. [)] I didn't read this thread until yesterday, but based on what I've seen I would also support Grizzly's perspective on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Surprise surprise, Bob Birarda appointed coach for the women U20 by the CSA. I wish him the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted December 22, 2007 Share Posted December 22, 2007 Bob Birarda named Canada's women's under-20 soccer coach Friday http://www.canadaeast.com/sports/article/164359 THE CANADIAN PRESS Published Friday December 21st, 2007 VANCOUVER - Bob Birarda will lead Canada's under-20 women's soccer team in its bid for a berth in the 2008 World Cup. Birarda was named head coach of the squad Friday. "It's an incredible honour to be able to take up this post," Birarda said on a conference call. Birarda, who coaches the Vancouver Whitecaps, will lead Canada's efforts at the CONCACAF women's under-20 championship where the team will battle for a berth in the FIFA under-20 World Cup. Canada must finish top-three at the CONCACAF tournament to qualify for the World Cup in Chile in November. The under-20 program is starting up again after a one-year hiatus. "There are some pretty experienced players in this group who have been involved in world championships before," said Birarda. "So we're hoping the lost time won't cost us too much, and that we can have a successful run here in the next little while." Birarda has an extensive women's coaching resume. He was an assistant to senior women's head coach Even Pellerud, plus an assistant with the women's youth team under head coach Ian Bridge. Birarda also guided the Vancouver Whitecaps to a W-League championship in 2006. Birarda has also been the head coach of the Canadian U-15, U-16, U-18 and Olympic development national teams over the past three years. "Really a huge benefit to stepping into this role is we've got a connection to the scouting process across the country," said Birard. "I've been to many camps with each one of these age groups." The Canadians have played in every under-20 World Cup since the inaugural tournament in 2002. Canada hosted the 2002 event (then the under-19 World Cup), capturing a silver medal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted December 22, 2007 Share Posted December 22, 2007 Why the male-dominated lock on coaching women and girls in this country? We've been through the women's teams, there's also the U20's: Jillian Ellis (USA, before Tracy Leone), Maren Meinert (Germany), Mo Marley (England). How important is a relationship with players? How important is understanding how they truly think? Are men from Mars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted December 22, 2007 Share Posted December 22, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Vic Why the male-dominated lock on coaching women and girls in this country? We've been through the women's teams, there's also the U20's: Jillian Ellis (USA, before Tracy Leone), Maren Meinert (Germany), Mo Marley (England). How important is a relationship with players? How important is understanding how they truly think? Are men from Mars? Considering these jobs are not full time positions and only pay an honorarium it is highly unlikely that any coach outside the CSA system would be willing and available to take them on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyr Posted December 22, 2007 Share Posted December 22, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Richard Qualifications Essential -Canadian Soccer Association A License or equivalent -Demonstrated record as a Soccer Head Coach with proven excellence of work -Effective verbal and written communication skills -Computer literate -Ability to work flexible hours, including weekends -Prepared to travel Does anyone know if Birarda or Dasovic even have their A Licenses yet? The CSA list only goes up to 2006 so it is possible they achieved their A license in 2007... but if not... how 'essential' are these qualifications? Is 'computer literacy' more important? http://www.canadasoccer.com/eng/coaching/pdf/status.pdf If they want to promote from within so bad why don't the CSA send away the young promising guys they want to Europe to get their UEFA A and Pro Licenses. Dasovic could easily go to Scotland (where he played) and do this, or even better, to Croatia, who have produced many top coaches (assuming he speaks the language). Then when they've earned their stripes at that level you've not only got guys that have played in Europe, but have also learned how to coach/manage in Europe. They will then bring back this knowledge and experience to Canada to make our own Licenses better. I hope de Vos is taking advantage of the courses offered at the PFA in England to get his UEFA badges. I like him 'talking to the talk'... but he needs to now 'walk the walk'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 Out for breakfast this morning and I grab the paper left behind on the table and it's open to De Vos' "Dismantle the CSA" article. Is this ever going to get resolved so we can start moving forward, instead of letting the world leave us behind? The longer this takes the longer it's going to take to catch up. I imagine they fast-tracked them. Experience is no requisite for an A. Licensing is always a bit random, and especially here, and I can't see them not rubber-stamping anyone they needed through. Let's try this again: 1) Why the male-dominated lock on coaching women and girls in this country? 2) How important is a relationship with players? 3) How important is understanding how they truly think? 4) Are men from Mars? Has there ever been anyone besides Ms. Beliveau? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Ault Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 I'll take a stab: 1) Female coaches often give up their coaching careers long before they reach the levels required to coach at the national level for a whole number of reasons - I'll see if I can get the misses to give me a reader's digest version of her reasons - one I know for sure would be the lack of support and respect from the male coaches of the species... one prime example I was at a CONCACAF symposium (in Vancouver) at the time the aforementioned Ms. Beliveau was a speaker and head coach of our National Team and the only women in a room of probably 150 males - mostly coaches - the total lack of just civil manners let alone respect for her as a coach was embarrassing or at least should have been. 2) and 3) In my experience mostly coaching females at most levels from tykes through youth to Collegiate (god I'm getting old...) I would say both of these things are very important, some would say it makes no difference coaching men or women, even some women - but I disagree and I think 2 and 3 are important. Those two things were why watching the meltdown of the U.S. team at the World Cup was so predictable as soon as coach Ryan made the decision to swap goalies and not talk to Solo about it in advance. It was a strange decision in women's (if not any type of) soccer just asking for troubles IMO. I'd be the first to admit I've made errors as a coach and most often with female athletes they have almost always came down to communication and the effect it had on the player/coach relationship. 4) My wife would certainly say I'm an alien... and finally to my knowledge no other woman has coached at a national level in Canada, I've known a few at the collegiate and university level but even there they are rare. How many are there in the OYSL or other top youth leagues in the country? In the U.S. there are far greater number of female coaches at all levels of the game so I guess we'd have to look at the differences in the coaching development systems in the two countries - when attending the NSCAA conventions in the past it always was a pleasant surprise for my wife to see the number of female coaches in attendance. Another reason for the disparity in numbers between Canada and the US is probably due to the fact that there is a more defined path to a paying coaching career in the U.S. and especially at the collegiate level the colleges actively pursue female coaches for their female teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 Bill Ault: Very nice recount of your experiences and observations re women coaches. I think they are all valid reasons specially your last paragraph. Assuming that at one point in your career you coached males, I wonder if you can comment on your preference as to coaching females or males and why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Ault Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 quote:Originally posted by The Ref Bill Ault: Very nice recount of your experiences and observations re women coaches. I think they are all valid reasons specially your last paragraph. Assuming that at one point in your career you coached males, I wonder if you can comment on your preference as to coaching females or males and why. I have coached on the male side - same range right up to Collegiate - not as much "depth" to the resume though currently I am working mostly with 14/15 year old boys in an academy setting. I prefer to coach on the female side - it just for me personally has always been a better "fit" with my approach and philosophy - some of the girls teams that I have been lucky enough to coach have been very talented (Provincial, District, SYL) so I'm sure that has biased my view as well but I always found them eager to learn, willing to work and make sacrifices to succeed with minimal off-field issues. With the boys I have found the same but the effort required by me as a coach to get them to that point was much more intensive and in the end maybe a little less enjoyable (maybe I'm just lazy). That's not to say there have been no good experiences with boys sides the current group I have are tremendous and I'm thoroughly enjoying working with them and am anxious to get back to work after our three week Christmas break. Additionally my initial coaching experience(s) were with female sides so that too I'm sure biased my career decisions later on both from the direction of who I wanted to coach and who people expected me to coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trillium Posted December 23, 2007 Author Share Posted December 23, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Bill Ault I'll take a stab: 1) Female coaches often give up their coaching careers long before they reach the levels required to coach at the national level for a whole number of reasons - I'll see if I can get the misses to give me a reader's digest version of her reasons - one I know for sure would be the lack of support and respect from the male coaches of the species... one prime example I was at a CONCACAF symposium (in Vancouver) at the time the aforementioned Ms. Beliveau was a speaker and head coach of our National Team and the only women in a room of probably 150 males - mostly coaches - the total lack of just civil manners let alone respect for her as a coach was embarrassing or at least should have been. [ Which alludes to the issue of how the clubs and supposed leaders in the Canadian soccer community see womens sport and coaching. I would think a comparison to other sports would make the CSA look very suspect in terms of developing female coaches at a national level. Another point that Bill does not make, is that we dont pay coaches at lower levels and therefore the economic cost to coach to volunteer,is to much to support a young coach to continue without payment at the local club level. Interestingly almost every figure skating club in small town Canada has paid female coaches, and many female coaches at the national level coaching males and females who have come through the local club system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 Good points Trillium. I believe there are some districts that pay some money to their elite-select coaches and the money comes from higher registration fees to the players on such teams. I personally stopped coaching because of the expenses involved such as equipment, gas, cellphone, physio, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Ault Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Trillium Another point that Bill does not make, is that we dont pay coaches at lower levels and therefore the economic cost to coach to volunteer,is to much to support a young coach to continue without payment at the local club level. That was what I was trying to point out with my reference to the US system and a reference to a "career" path Trillium, as always was a bit less obtuse . Soccer is maybe not that much different than other sports: According to the Canadian Olympic Committee’s 2006 official team list, female coaches represented only 14.7 per cent of Canada’s Olympic coaches, indicating that while the achievements of female Canadian athletes have risen substantially, the number of women in coaching positions has not increased at the same pace. Recent coaching data (2004–2006) from Canadian Interuniversity Sport, the Canadian Colleges Athletic Association, the Canada Summer Games, and national and provincial levels of competition in eight sports revealed that few women hold positions of head and assistant coaches. Of 1,564 head and assistant coaches identified, only 511 (32.7%) were female. More specifically, women occupied 19 to 41 per cent of the head coach positions examined, including the women’s team sports of rugby (41.2%), basketball (36.2%), soccer (34.7%), volleyball (34.4%), and ice hockey (19.6%). The findings for individual sports revealed the following: 17 to 35 per cent of the head coaches were female in athletics (17.4%), swimming (20.4%), and wrestling (35.3%). Data on women in Canadian Paralympic coaching showed similar results, with women representing 21.7 per cent of the head coaches. Full document here: http://www.coach.ca/WOMEN/e/journal/october2007/october2007.pdf The article also points out many of the obstacles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trillium Posted December 23, 2007 Author Share Posted December 23, 2007 quote: That was what I was trying to point out with my reference to the US system and a reference to a "career" path Trillium, as always was a bit less obtuse . Its okay Bill, I was never one for the subtle approach when the hammer would do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 Thanks Bill, really appreciate all your time and honesty. I just surveyed Canada's team sports I could think of: 1)Basketball --------------------------- WNT - Allison McNeil (Head) F - Lisa Thomaidis (Asst) F U18 - Christine Stapleton (Head) F - Suzanne Korthuis (Asst) F 2) Volleyball --------------------------- - Naoki Miyashi ta (Head) M U18 - Melanie Sanford (Head) F 3) Rugby --------------------------- WNT - Natascha Wesch (Head) F U23 - no coach 4) Hockey --------------------------- WNT - Peter Smith (Head) M - Lisa Jordan (Asst) F - Nancy Wilson (Asst) F U22 - Dan Church (Head) M - Sarah Howald (Asst) F - Stephanie White (Asst) F U18 - Melody Davidson (Head) F - Danielle Goyette (Asst) F - Jim Fetter (Asst) M 5) Ringette --------------------------- WNT - Lyndsay Wheelan (Head) F - Marion Clark (Asst) F - Tracy Townsend (Asst) F 6) Softball --------------------------- WNT - Lori Sippel (Head) F - Lonni Almeda (Asst) F - Wendy Dobbin (Asst) F - Jim Peterson (Asst) M U18 - Mark Sanderson (Head) M - Melissa Basilo (Asst) F - Glenn Boles (Asst) M - Cherene Hesl (Asst) F 7) Field Hockey --------------------------- - Sally Bell (Head) F - Giles Wheatley (Asst) M * Minimum 50% across the board and generally more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Ault Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 ^ Obviously soccer DOES have some catching up to do at the National Level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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