What's with the terrible attendance?

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

Massive Attack...I don't want to pick a fight but I don't believe the 85% poseur figure. I think its unfair to call anyone who pays for season tickets a poseur just because they might not be as passionate about TFC or the MNT as I am (or you or JB Tito or anyone else).

I know of quite a few hardcore TFC fans / hardcore soccer fans, who would likely want to be at last night's game, who could not come last night or simply did not know about the game. That's a fact of life. I think it's premature to underestimate the quality of soccer fans in the GTA.

I don't think it is at all correct to think a hard core club fan will necessarily be interested in the national team. And not in any country. In fact you will find that it is just as normal that a guy in Paris who does not follow PSG will go to see France. A lot of England fans too will have their club but will be particularly passionate about England, even more than their club (not a majority but a chunk). This occurs in Spain too, people who do not go to see the clubs, or are not really into them, will go see the national team. And of course the reverse occurs, not everyone has the connection to the national side either.

Of course we are not there yet, at least not for the men (for sure we have greater following of the women, potentially and historically, as a national side). I don't think Canada has become so refined in terms of market segments that you get a chunk of super Canada supporters in places like TO or Vancouver who are not regularly in the stadium to see the local side, but it may happen some day.

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by PunjabiOil

Edmonton drew 26,000 on a pouring rainy day. Toronto did sell out Varsity, but a lot of fans were cheering for Mexico.

Not that it is relevant to the original point - the attendance last night was just not good.

So many inaccuracies...

- Sold out in Toronto vs T&T for the first friendly after the GC. 9k+

- Big crowd in Winnipeg vs Honduras

- 25k+ in Edmonton for a WCQ against T&T.

[matthew]

That T&T WCQ was the first game where they weren't prepared for the crowd and there were huge lines. I believe it was due to a big walk up. In any event the weather was great for that game.

The T&T game at Varsity was also sold out and had a great Canadian crowd with us in one corner and a bunch of Crotian-Cdns in the other corner with flares.

As I recall that Honduras game sold out in Wpg too, but I wasn't there (I was still in T.O, it was played a few days later). Though that was on the heels of a well-attended Pan-Am games. Wpg had sellouts (or near sellouts) for the Cuba and Panama WCQ games as well.

I agree with Daniel though — we filled the supporters section. We got the people who are going to make the noise together, united and in numbers. The hardcore supporter did their job last night.

Getting the minor soccer players and the casual fans and the folks who want to be entertained . . . I'm not sure that's our role. Let's worry about making our presence felt as good as possible NATIONWIDE and hope that the CSA and the local groups do their jobs in promoting this.

One day maybe we can hope to fill 20,000 seats with crazies, but right now I'm pretty impressed with how many we had last night. That was a great step.

cheers,

matthew

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Okay, but these situations are not all that common in this day & age - and if he's been travelling, doesn't visit the websites & doesn't listen to sports radio, it's difficult to blame the promotion that was actually done.

Actually, it says to me that they did not do proper promotion. I keep saying this and I have no idea why no one agrees but if the CSA does not turn to local clubs in a big way to help promote their product, they are stupid.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Not a legitimate question when all that TO bragging comes to naught.

Yawn.

[Guest HamiltonSteelers]

Here's the easy solution : Get the TFC marketing department to promote any future matches. I mean, if the people at work know when the next TFC home game is and had NO CLUE about Canada v. Costa Rica, do the math.

TFC is getting their message out to everyone. The CSA is doing the usual CSA thing that they do - the bare minimum.

Hell, the players were probably put up at a Motel 6.

And as those who watched the match and were in attendance, Canada men's nat. team > TFC so how does TFC attendance double that of a far superior (and fluid, and creative, and ambitious, and...) side?

The CSA has no one to blame but themselves. Pathetic from top to bottom.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

Actually, it says to me that they did not do proper promotion. I keep saying this and I have no idea why no one agrees but if the CSA does not turn to local clubs in a big way to help promote their product, they are stupid.

Well here's Gerry Dobson's take on the situation:

http://www2.sportsnet.ca/blogs/gerry_dobson/2007/09/13/fans_making_a_statement/

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

Actually, it says to me that they did not do proper promotion. I keep saying this and I have no idea why no one agrees but if the CSA does not turn to local clubs in a big way to help promote their product, they are stupid.

But thats exactly what the Lynx did and look what it got them. Crowds of 2.5K to 4K with few even paying attention. The kids day was huge succeess but no one there would be watching the game. That kind of environment also scares off the serious supporters.

Then along comes MLSEL, who does the total opposite, and they sell out for the whole year. I think that Gerry Dobson is spot on with his thoughts on the notion of turning to local clubs. Did local clubs not hear the ads that were run every day on the radio ?

[mtlfan]

Let's be clear about what happened last night.

OUR Team was not supported.

There is no excuse just the fact that root of the problem is a flaw in the mentality of the grassroots.

The importance of developing players is paramount and the best teaching method is to lead by example.

Loyalty to the players on the field must be the priority no matter what.

The Voyageurs understand this.

Anyone with any influence at the OSA could have and should have ensured without fail to pass the

message that our boys must have total support 100% of the time.

You cannot explain to the players why you didn't show up.......there is no valid reason.

I challenge anyone to dispute this.

Please no more crap about time, price CSA, Wednesday 7:00PM blah blah blah.

[Trillium]

The marketing ... was wrong..... wrong ..radio buy and wrong focus to market the game and team.

The CSA needs to change ..its marketing boss ...someone needs to be fired cause they dont know how to sell the product

[jonovision]

quote:Originally posted by Trillium

The marketing ... was wrong..... wrong ..radio buy and wrong focus to market the game and team.

The CSA needs to change ..its marketing boss ...someone needs to be fired cause they dont know how to sell the product

What would you have done differently?

[Massive Attack]

quote:Originally posted by Trillium

The marketing ... was wrong..... wrong ..radio buy and wrong focus to market the game and team.

The CSA needs to change ..its marketing boss ...someone needs to be fired cause they dont know how to sell the product

I disagree completely. What radio stations would be better suited if you are so smart? They went after the right target audience, 18-34 year old males who like sports. I'm willing to bet those are the 2 best stations in the city for that target market.

Now, if you want to argue that radio was a bad idea, I'd be willing to listen. But I'd like to see some well thought out points. And some suggestions would be nice as well.

Its easy to complain when you have no solutions.

I still think this comes down to the overall success of Canadian soccer. Until the CSA/MNT shows a lot more better results, we will continue to see turnouts like this, all over the country.

[Duane Rollins1555362254]

I overheard a kid on the GO platform who was standing with his youth team. A man with a Oakville soccer jacket was with them. The kid said:

"I would never go see that if I had to pay. No wonder tickets are free."

The kid was clearly clueless, but it speaks to the biggest problem the CMNT has when it comes to drawing people. Many people think it sucks and will never be convinced otherwise. The only way to get more people out is to win more. And even then, it will take time.

There is one exception. The hardcore support. They could be convinced to show up regularly. That's why I have some hope after Wed. game. The South end came. It cheered. And, it cheered loudly. I've never seen a Canada game with so many people actively cheering Canada. This is the crowd we have to reach out to.

I'm not sure we can do more to get the causal fan out.

[JB_Tito]

From Gerry Dobson article taht GIAN-LUCA posted above.

QUOTE:

In light of recent events, the Ontario Soccer Association approached the CSA about lending a hand. The OSA has been quite successful over the past few years in terms of its strategic planning and ability to generate funds. Their "Play Soccer" campaign and formal partnership with Everton of the English Premier League are solid examples. Their scheme would call for a six-month period of analysis and suggestions on how best to move forward.

Under the offer, the OSA would have used their proven expertise to assist in building a new business plan for the national association with the hopes that during their AGM next spring, the CSA could announce a new wide-ranging operational structure and strategic plan for the future.

The CSA, however, politely declined.

They said legal issues prevented them from accepting Ontario's offer. The OSA was confident that if their proposal had been taken to the CSA board, it would have been approved. Now we'll never know.

Lets face it CSA morons and nobody else is to blame for this game promotion.

SACK THE CSA!!

[Canuck Oranje]

This thread is another indication of what's wrong with Canadian Soccer. Our community is more concerned with regional one-upmanship than it is in unifying and strengthening the sport.

When I read this, I visualize the petty battles that must happen at the CSA Board level and I am sure that those positioned to potentially become a Board member must have doubts about getting involved when reading this.

The Canadian soccer needs to unify to grow. The most important thing is that the Men's National Team needs to be successful. It needs to win and it needs to play attractive soccer. This is not just about getting marginal fans to turn out, this about getting hardened ethnic Canadian fans to admit that Canada plays good soccer. The fact that the game was on TV and that the MNT actually played an attractive style is far more important than how many people were in the stands at this particular game.

Anyone who has spent any time in a major soccer playing country knows that this kind of friendly is a hard sell. They would also know that TV is what will carry the sport financially along with sponsorships in the long term. Gate receipts, while necessary, are not the prime source of revenue for the National teams of major soccer playing countries.

The divisiveness shown in this thread is exactly what is wrong with the sport in Canada. Regions are more concerned with their own activities and what they can get for themselves. Ethnic communities are blamed for the lack of attention given to National teams and in response, they simply continue to do what they do. While the volunteers at grassroots local clubs have put in large amounts of voluteer time (some as much as 20 hours per week) at the local level, they are blamed for hijacking the national agenda when, in fact, no one ever asks them what they think. The business community is blamed for not supporting the sport when no one ever bothers to package the sport in a way that interests them.

I am sure errors were made in staging this game. I am sure other regions could also do well in staging this game. Most of all, I know that if the Canadian Men's National Team continues to play an attractive style and ultimately qualify for the 2010 World Cup, the stands will be full regardless of where the game is played.

On a personal note, I live in K-W. On a Saturday morning at 8am, I could be at BMO field in one hour. On a Wednesday evening in mid September between 5-7pm, I would be lucky if I could get to Mississauga in one hour. A 7pm start on Wednesday evening eliminated me from attending by itself. However, because I ended up watching the game on TV, my Brazilian wife also sat to watch the game with me. It also gave her the opportunity to ask, "who is this de Guzman?" and me to tell her about him. After a few more games like this last one, I might even be able to convince her to attend a game with me.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

But thats exactly what the Lynx did and look what it got them. Crowds of 2.5K to 4K with few even paying attention. The kids day was huge succeess but no one there would be watching the game. That kind of environment also scares off the serious supporters.

Then along comes MLSEL, who does the total opposite, and they sell out for the whole year. I think that Gerry Dobson is spot on with his thoughts on the notion of turning to local clubs. Did local clubs not hear the ads that were run every day on the radio ?

I know where you are coming from with your concerns about getting the youth out to the games. i went to one of those Lynx youth day games with my son when he was playing U-4. There were ALOT of little kids there and most were not paying attention, as is to be expected of very young children. I will say that my U6 players who came to the game on Wednesday night were mostly right into the action...they were doing chants with me to try to help drown out the Tico's around me.

In my opinion, the technical directors and rep coaches need to be organize team outings for their top elite players (U14, U16, etc...) for MNT games like these. They might not be as serious a group of supporters as we are but these are precisely the people who will form the next wave of Canadian supporters if they can be engaged properly. You would assume that most young elite players are actually soccer fans but probably know far more about players playing over in Europe than they do about their own home grown talent.

Clearly I am somewhat alone on this island with my opinions so I'll end my part of this youth team debate with this....If I were coaching a U14 or U16 rep or academy team, I would have made sure that my players were there on Wednesday night (as many as possible). I am dissapointed that this did not happen en masse, although I do give credit to those coaches who did bring out there players...I did see a handful of teams, mostly girls.

[JB_Tito]

Friom todays globe and mail

Quote:

Many of the Canadian team supporters wore special black T-shirts adorned with "Sack the CSA" front and back. It was a protest of how the Canadian Soccer Association operates.

Brennan used the attendance as an example of the CSA's problems. "It's their fault, the way that they promote things," Brennan said. "We were disappointed with it. Obviously, the first home game with Canada at this stadium, you want to play in front of 20,000 people. The usual CSA, right?"[/b

Now that players know we support them not CSA they going public and telling the way they feel and think about CSA.

Black Wednesday was great idea and this is just beginning. We can’t give up now, that why please don’t fight about attendance and what city would be better host for future CMNT.

Lets get rid of morons in CSA BoD , or push them to change the way CSA is operating.

SACK the CSA !!

[JB_Tito]

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

This thread is another indication of what's wrong with Canadian Soccer. Our community is more concerned with regional one-upmanship than it is in unifying and strengthening the sport.

When I read this, I visualize the petty battles that must happen at the CSA Board level and I am sure that those positioned to potentially become a Board member must have doubts about getting involved when reading this.

The Canadian soccer needs to unify to grow. The most important thing is that the Men's National Team needs to be successful. It needs to win and it needs to play attractive soccer. This is not just about getting marginal fans to turn out, this about getting hardened ethnic Canadian fans to admit that Canada plays good soccer. The fact that the game was on TV and that the MNT actually played an attractive style is far more important than how many people were in the stands at this particular game.

Anyone who has spent any time in a major soccer playing country knows that this kind of friendly is a hard sell. They would also know that TV is what will carry the sport financially along with sponsorships in the long term. Gate receipts, while necessary, are not the prime source of revenue for the National teams of major soccer playing countries.

The divisiveness shown in this thread is exactly what is wrong with the sport in Canada. Regions are more concerned with their own activities and what they can get for themselves. Ethnic communities are blamed for the lack of attention given to National teams and in response, they simply continue to do what they do. While the volunteers at grassroots local clubs have put in large amounts of voluteer time (some as much as 20 hours per week) at the local level, they are blamed for hijacking the national agenda when, in fact, no one ever asks them what they think. The business community is blamed for not supporting the sport when no one ever bothers to package the sport in a way that interests them.

I am sure errors were made in staging this game. I am sure other regions could also do well in staging this game. Most of all, I know that if the Canadian Men's National Team continues to play an attractive style and ultimately qualify for the 2010 World Cup, the stands will be full regardless of where the game is played.

On a personal note, I live in K-W. On a Saturday morning at 8am, I could be at BMO field in one hour. On a Wednesday evening in mid September between 5-7pm, I would be lucky if I could get to Mississauga in one hour. A 7pm start on Wednesday evening eliminated me from attending by itself. However, because I ended up watching the game on TV, my Brazilian wife also sat to watch the game with me. It also gave her the opportunity to ask, "who is this de Guzman?" and me to tell her about him. After a few more games like this last one, I might even be able to convince her to attend a game with me.

AGREED

[gkhs]

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

This thread is another indication of what's wrong with Canadian Soccer. Our community is more concerned with regional one-upmanship than it is in unifying and strengthening the sport.

Agree 100%.

It is hilarious that on this board we have concurrent threads: one bemoaning regionalism and in-fighting on the board; and, one in which representatives of each region tout there own support and criticize the others. Or it would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.

There is no site in Canada that would have gotten over 10k fans out for this match under these circumstances.

That is the problem. That is what we need to address.

Lets compare our relative merits as hosts when we can each boast enough fans to avoid embarrasing and disappointing our team.

[Canuck Oranje]

Let me say again. The root problem is not attendance. The root problem is that the Canadian Men's National Team has not performed well for many years. If the team is allowed to and begins to play well and win for an extended period of time, the attendance problem will disappear. That is regardless of where it is played.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

Let me say again. The root problem is not attendance. The root problem is that the Canadian Men's National Team has not performed well for many years. If the team is allowed to and begins to play well and win for an extended period of time, the attendance problem will disappear. That is regardless of where it is played.

You are correct. There are factors that have affected attendance whenever the MNT plays but the fact that our National Team has been mediocre (or bad) for 20+ years (except for 1 month in 2000) is really the main problem.

Let's rally around this team and rally against the CSA. Rallying around this current team will hopefully this will give us a great 2010WC team and rallying for change at the CSA will hopefully ensure excellent teams 2014, 2018 and beyond.

[Niagara Hammer]

I want to rant.

Dear Massive Attack and GKHS

I am not a poseur. I am however, a johny come lately to the sport. I started watching it when my son started to play. I wanted to help out with his team and figured I had better learn something of the sport. I started watching Professional Soccer from Europe on Saturday Mornings. I am hooked. I took a coaching course and help out the local club when I can.

When it comes to international sports, I always cheer for Canada FIRST, always.

I have been to TWO TFC games. TFC won both. I have now been to my first MNT game. I forked out $60 each for 2 tickets.

I live 1 hour from the grounds with no traffic. It took 100 minutes to get to the game. If I did not post here I would not have know of the game. Many people in my community did not know of the game. TO say the 590 was good advertising is exactly why I hate the attitude that 'Toronto is the centre of the universe.' The signal strength of 590 is poor on this side of the lake. I do not know how well it travels north. Nobody listens to it here. Nobody. In fact I was listen to 680 and 900 on the way to the game for traffic, neither mentioned the game.

There are what 2.5 M people in Toronto. There are at least that many more who do not live, or drive into Toronto with out good reason. I do not live in Toronto. I do not Work in Toronto. I avoid Toronto. (born in Hamilton (hammer) and live in Niagara)

The advertising of this game was pitiful. And I do not think Anyone here could convince you otherwise. GO ask coworkers if they knew of the game, IF they heard it from you it does not count as CSA advertising.

It is not the clubs responsibility to advertise for the CSA. IT IS THE CSAs JOB TO ADVERTISE FOR THE CSA. I am sure there is a MArketing Guy posting here, i'm not, the first rule of marketing is know your customer. So either the CSA does not know there customer or they do not care about their customers. I am leaning to the latter.

Rant over

By the way I did not see any programs for sale. Can anybody confirm this. I only recognize a few players. With no names on the shirts it is hard for a me to put names to players. I am sure others would have the same problem.

[gkhs]

quote:Originally posted by Niagara Hammer

Dear Massive Attack and GKHS

Sorry if any offense was taken, no offence was intended.

I never suggested any specific person was a poseur. Just that they predominate at TFC matches.

[Niagara Hammer]

apology accepted

[Massive Attack]

Dear Niagara Hammer,

Learn to grow a thicker skin. Just because I call most TFC fans poseurs, doesn't mean I was singling you out. The fact that you were at the game should be self-evident why you are not.

---------------------------------------------

I still don't buy the poor marketing complaints. My other passion beside being a Canadian Soccer nerd is music. Sometimes I miss some of my favourite bands when they come to town. I don't blame these bands for poor marketing, I blame myself for not paying better attention.

I just want to throw my support again to my theory that it will take World Cup qualification for us to see a true change in attendance of MNT matches. Until that day, we will see similar numbers, unless the opponent is more attractive.