What's with the terrible attendance?

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

Well, i dont share the extent of that pessimism. there is a market for soccer here and you can make it profitable. No doubt there are a lot poseurs out there. But evemn when they are gone and dont comeback the numbers are strong enough to make a worthwhile investment by TFC. As I said over a year ago, when all this started. with a base of 5K season tickets and an average turnout of 8-12K you should be able to make a go of it

[Winnipeg Fury]

I'm not too worried about the crowd. Yes, Kingston probably would have drawn close to the same amount (within a couple thousand), but there's no doubt the bad press surronding the CSA hurt the gate. Not to mention the terrible performance of our U-20's.

It looked like a strong pro-Canada crowd, and that's my only concern.

[ag futbol]

Bah, pricing to cover your costs is one thing but if you don't have a recognized name intro prices are needed to build support. You take the loss to build your market, simple business concept the CSA should be aware of. On top of that people who pay money to sponsor the CSA would place much more value on a full stadium then breaking even on attendance. Break even or make a profit down the road once you build the MNT as a brand.

And why exactly is there this complaining about attendance but then opposition to putting tickets in line with TFC season ticket packages? Season tickets are capped at around 14k, leaving the remaining 6k to be purchased by the public. Anyone who was on the ball could have easily got tickets under those circumstances as the slow selling for this game illustrated.

Attendance was still disapointing but let's be realistic about pricing a mid week friendly against a low profile team!

[Marc]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

Seriously, if you're a soccer fan and you don't know when and where your own country is playing, then all the advertising in the world won't help you.

I don't buy the poor advertising argument. The fact of the matter is 95% of TFC fans are poseurs. Its sad to say, but its true. I think this is part of the reason why TFC TV ratings are so poor. TFC games are attended by people who want to be at the coolest place in town.

While there's a hint of truth in that statement, you're over-stating it to the extreme. The number of "poseurs" at TFC games is probably more like 20 percent, with a further 20 percent being your average 18-35 year old male who likes sports and wants to get loaded at a sports event and TFC games happen to be a fun, relatively cheap place to watch sports.

The rest are casual or region-specific fans that get turned on to the game for various reasons: calibre of play, atmosphere, cheapness of tickets, etc. Labelling anyone who isn't a hardcore TFC fan as a "poseur" who just wants to be at the coolest place in town is not very fair, and is the kind of attitude that helps defeat soccer progress in Canada. Yes, there is a sizeable component of them at these games, but that's normal.

We have to realize that not every soccer fan will be a Canada fan, just like not every 60s music fan likes both the Beatles and the Stones. The point is to get as much cross-over as possible, and to welcome as much fan diversity as possible, whether they be in the south end chanting, or in the west stand clapping, or in the beer garden drinking.

Vast majorities of soccer fans in Canada, the US, and in many other second/third/fourth/fifth tier soccer countries don't know where there teams are playing. Advertizing is one aspect of getting them into it, as are successful club teams, strategic marketing, decent prices, good atmosphere, and a hardcore fan base that is welcoming to fans who come and go with the ebb and flow of the sport's and Canada's popularity and success.

[Marc]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

Seriously, if you're a soccer fan and you don't know when and where your own country is playing, then all the advertising in the world won't help you.

I don't buy the poor advertising argument. The fact of the matter is 95% of TFC fans are poseurs. Its sad to say, but its true. I think this is part of the reason why TFC TV ratings are so poor. TFC games are attended by people who want to be at the coolest place in town.

While there's a hint of truth in that statement, you're over-stating it to the extreme. The number of "poseurs" at TFC games is probably more like 20 percent, with a further 20 percent being your average 18-35 year old male who likes sports and wants to get loaded at a sports event and TFC games happen to be a fun, relatively cheap place to watch sports.

The rest are casual or region-specific fans that get turned on to the game for various reasons: calibre of play, atmosphere, cheapness of tickets, etc. Labelling anyone who isn't a hardcore TFC fan as a "poseur" who just wants to be at the coolest place in town is not very fair, and is the kind of attitude that helps defeat soccer progress in Canada. Yes, there is a sizeable component of them at these games, but that's normal.

We have to realize that not every soccer fan will be a Canada fan, just like not every 60s music fan likes both the Beatles and the Stones. The point is to get as much cross-over as possible, and to welcome as much fan diversity as possible, whether they be in the south end chanting, or in the west stand clapping, or in the beer garden drinking.

Vast majorities of soccer fans in Canada, the US, and in many other second/third/fourth/fifth tier soccer countries don't know where there teams are playing. Advertizing is one aspect of getting them into it, as are successful club teams, strategic marketing, decent prices, good atmosphere, and a hardcore fan base that is welcoming to fans who come and go with the ebb and flow of the sport's and Canada's popularity and success.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by JB_Tito

Ok, how many people listening the fan 590 and AM 640.I’m the first one that never listen any of those radio stations, and believe me so many other in GTA. Radio advertising is not enough and can’t be used as excuse for CSA f#%king up the whole game. What about newspapers, TV? Not to mention the Youth soccer clubs with 365000 members in Ontario only. They thought just open the gates people will come TFC supporters will be there as usual.

BTW There is a nice picture in Toronto Sun from Nascarguy and Denime(RPB) with Black T-Shirts.

SUCK THE CSA !!!

(See my other post regarding the numbers in 2000 versus today)

Well then, was the CSA doing in 2000 all things that you suggested ?

They were likely doing less, yet the attendance were arguable double of what we have today.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

What else is the CSA suppose to do? Pay for even more adds? For what purpose? To get 1 or 2 more thousand in the seats? I wonder if a bigger ad campaign would even be cost effective.

Let's not beat around the bush. Toronto FC fans like to suck eachother's dicks bragging about how great they are. But I'm starting to see a lot of signs that show me things aren't as great as we think.

The only thing they could have done (other than to start sellign the tickets earlier) was to do some print advertisting, but that's really expesnsive in this city if we are talking about the major dailies. I don't think they have that kind of money at this time & it's dubious whether they would have gotten a return on the amount of cash print advertising would bring them.

They did advertise through TFC's auspices and that reached a lot of people, many of whom (not counting the supporter groups) didn't bite. A combination of factors (price, Wednesday evening during school time and that they've already spent quite a bit of cash on soccer this summer already) probably contributed to the slightly disappointing turnout. But it's only disappointing from a Toronto perspective, not because anywhere in the country would have done a lot better under the same circumstances, as some have claimed.

[redhat]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

The supporters section was full and in black. That's all that matters. Strong support for our boys.

That's who'll be in South Africa, not some fans who couldn't be bothered to come to the game .

Thank you Daniel. My sentiments exactly. To those who showed up

and gave their support -- good on you. To those who did not, hope

you can make it to the next one.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by ag futbol

Bah, pricing to cover your costs is one thing but if you don't have a recognized name intro prices are needed to build support. You take the loss to build your market, simple business concept the CSA should be aware of.

But this is non profit organization and that means zero-based budgetting. You cannot do the things that you suggest unless you are are a business with share holders and lots invested capital. tahts not what a national associating is. You cannot run losses one years to be profitable in the future. You budget years to year to meet your projected expenses and reveneus.

[ag futbol]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

But this is non profit organization where you have zero-based budgetting. You cannot do the things that you suggest unless you are are a business with share holders and lots invested capital. tahts not what a national associating is. You cannot run losses one years to be profitable in the future. You budget years to year to meet your projected expenses and reveneus.

Just because your a NFPO doesn't mean you have to break even every year. Your profits (or excess) go in a reserve fund and are used for the future and dedicated towards the same cause. NFPO is a purpose, it doesn't mean you can't grow your cuase. We don't need loads of invested capital to take a loss, we certainly just proved that (although it's not ideal).

[Marc]

But CSA is a NFPO that receives government funding and is in charge of running a national program. Therefore running deficits means political ramafications. If they start running deficits holding soccer games and they'll get investigated and the crapola will hit the fan.

[VPjr]

Guys...I hate to be a broked record but when there are 250,000-300,000 registered soccer players within a 1 hour drive of the GTA and the CSA makes no effort to get the clubs involved in the promotion of the game, you are going to fail. You only need 5% of those kids to come out to fill the place up. Sell the seats for $15.00-20.00 and the place is full or at least 75% full. I know for a fact that this was not done. Those of us who gather on the forums might not think that marketing to the youth crowd is a good thing but it's the only way you are going to fill the place for a game like Canada v Costa Rica. I would like to see how many peope would come out for a Canada v USA match. I bet that crowd would be much better.

The truth is that most GTA area CANADIAN Soccer fans (not necessarily the same group that supports TFC) were at the game last night. It's clear to me now that there are plenty of TFC supporters who prefer to support their parents' home country. It is going to take time to win them over to Canada.

Let's stop beating ourselves up for not showing up and instead, let's make do our best to get a bigger crowd out next time. Let's send our ideas to the CSA rather than just bitch on the forum. Maybe, just maybe, someone will listen because they certainly took a bath on last nights game.

it can only get better people.

[O KANADOS]

NFPO or not, they need to promote these games and the teams better. Back in June/July the CSA's only focus and target of its efforts was on the U20 tourney largely ignoring the senior side and the Gold Cup...well, how did that turn out?! The hype machine died after that rather than reverting to the CMNT.

They did need more ads etc., it being the 1st game in TO in 7 years and all that, but they also needed to start selling tickets a lot earlier than they did. The CSA couldn't get their act together.

On the positive side, the team is playing strongly and as qualification begins hopefully interest and attendance will improve significantly...

[ag futbol]

quote:Originally posted by Marc

But CSA is a NFPO that receives government funding and is in charge of running a national program. Therefore running deficits means political ramafications. If they start running deficits holding soccer games and they'll get investigated and the crapola will hit the fan.

Ok, first of all we are running defecits already. The point is that you take a hit at first so you can be self sustaining. Right now we're not getting any closer to that point by charging people too much for mid-week friendlies. We can still run a defecit on the game and make money other places which will balance out.

If the defecit is going to be investigated the responce is simple. We're running a defecit now so we don't have to in the future. Put some research behind that to back it up and you're set.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

I think I already made a point before the game about saturation. This is quite a normal thing to happen, folks just see a lot and spend a lot and won't always put out in the same place all the time.

Another thing you will see in many countries is that the big games, the competitive ones, may end up in your St. Denis or Wemblys, but the smaller ones or friendlies will go to other cities. Not that TO has the same relative weight in Canada as London or Paris, but still it is a principle you see applied a lot. The friendlies and less-reknowned rivals for people who never get to see the team, the key games in the bigger stadiums where you hope the die-hards won't miss the match, where you feel at home.

I think the point about time of day is important too, in Spain where people work late Champions League games midweek are actually too early at 8:45 PM, especially the shopkeeper season ticket holders, who work to 8 or later, don't go to see Champions. Of course in the smaller cities attendance holds up better at bad times because traffic and transport and distances are all less problematic. Not the case with Toronto, which has problem in all three.

I don't worry about it, the key is that the team feels right there and that they know they will be supported and can win at that field.

[Marc]

If I were a politician; and

I found out that the CSA is using public money to run games knowingly below cost;

On a speculative basis of making the money up later; and

With no guaranteee that such money would be made up in the future; and

With soccer being a relatively marginal sport; and

In the current climate where you have to justify every dollar spent on everything,

I would latch on it and make it front page news that public funds were being mismanaged and misspent. While its board members may live in a vacuum, the CSA itself doesn't.

[JB_Tito]

[ag futbol]

quote:Originally posted by Marc

If I were a politician; and

I found out that the CSA is using public money to run games knowingly below cost;

On a speculative basis of making the money up later; and

With no guaranteee that such money would be made up in the future; and

With soccer being a relatively marginal sport; and

In the current climate where you have to justify every dollar spent on everything,

I would latch on it and make it front page news that public funds were being mismanaged and misspent. While its board members may live in a vacuum, the CSA itself doesn't.

Right now, it's speculative to say we're ever going to break even on a game charging those prices.

Things that aren't speculation:

-Soccer has a huge participation base.

-It's increasing in popularity

-drawing awareness to your product can increase brand value

This idea of "speculation" is nothing more than a well drawn out business proposal. The facts are there, it's not as speculative as you think. The ultimate goal benefits all the stakeholders because it means a more effective organization and less government handouts.

Get over this idea of "profit". Do you think Hockey Canada breaks even to the exact dollar on every game hold in Canada? They are claerly walking away with a margin. The "profits" are being reinvested in the sport, it's not going into an executive bonus!

If we looked so rigidly at the idea of breaking even we wouldn't have invested anything in the U-20 for this year. Investment is necessary for growth, in this case growth is not being used to "profit" but to increase the effectiveness of the organization.

[Marc]

Not sure where you're getting this "profit" stuff from. What you're saying is definitely forward thinking, however it's missing the political realities that constrain action by these types of organizations.

For the CSA to actively engage in planning whereby it is known that you aren't even trying to break even is a recipe for POLITICAL disaster in this day and age.

Spending now to make money later is noble, laudable, and smart, don't get me wrong. But it's politically impossible, especially for the CSA.

For example, governments have a hard enough time investing in preventative health programs because it's next to impossible to truly justify the spending, in dollars and cents, against future gains and losses.

If a government can't do it, do you really think the CSA, with it's level of 'competence', and it's lack of strategic planning, and its use of public funds, and its relatively unimportant cause (lets be honest, sports is low radar) can pull it off?

What you're saying makes sense for a private business, or a completely private NGO, but not for an entity that receives both government funding and from fees paid by parents.

[ag futbol]

If we are strictly going to use that philosophy that means we can't have any more friendlies as it stands, because we can't seem to break even.

Using the pricing as a promotion and running the same defecit we are currently can only serve to help improve conditions that will allow us to charge these type of prices in the future.

[Marc]

I admire your chutzpah, your vision, and agree on principle, but unfortuntely at this time it does not take into account the realities of both the budgeting process and the politics (both big P and small p) in which it would have to occur.

In a better future, perhaps!

[CanadasBest]

I think i'm echoing a lot of posters in this thread. The crowd was great, and it was great to see all U-Sector, V's, and RPB grouped together in the end to cheer on our home team. Well done!

The size of the crowd was still disappointing. 6 million people in the GTA, and only 9000 people at the game.

The problem is the CSA and their lack of marketing of the teams. Because of this, no one city is better suited to host a game than any other. It's time to put this subject to rest. It wouldn't have mattered where yesterdays game would have been played. There still would have been less than 10,000 people.

Maybe once we see Julian De Guzman and De Rosario in a TV commercial heading the ball all over Toronto we will be headed somewhere.

[jpg75]

quote:Originally posted by Natesta

The first National team game being played in Toronto in 7 years... Canada's most populous city... in our countries national stadium...

and we can't even fill it up half way!

A bunch of people owe the fine fans in Edmonton an apology.

What a disgrace, Toronto should be embarrassed.

Edited to add that the only saving grace was the fine folks in the southside stands.

[The Beaver]

quote:Originally posted by gwallace76

I think i'm echoing a lot of posters in this thread. The crowd was great, and it was great to see all U-Sector, V's, and RPB grouped together in the end to cheer on our home team. Well done!

The size of the crowd was still disappointing. 6 million people in the GTA, and only 9000 people at the game.

The problem is the CSA and their lack of marketing of the teams. Because of this, no one city is better suited to host a game than any other. It's time to put this subject to rest. It wouldn't have mattered where yesterdays game would have been played. There still would have been less than 10,000 people.

Maybe once we see Julian De Guzman and De Rosario in a TV commercial heading the ball all over Toronto we will be headed somewhere.

Sure, the CSA marketing has been crap, but the single greatest reason our Men's Team does not draw fans is because they've a spotty reputation. Lots of fans out there, but they want to see a winning team--or at least a team capable of winning--and history has taught our fringe fans that Canada is not a winner. What the CSA needs to do is feed on the recent excellent play and results, and make the strong claim that we are on the rise, playing exciting football, scoring goals (for chissakes!), and fielding a team with excellent, exciting players.

We've got to keep winning games, plain and simple. Nothing will have a larger impact than that. The media will report on the quality--Dobson and Forrest were effusive in their praise last night--and the fringe--the bandwagoners--will start to show up.

People are embarrassed to cheer for Canada in soccer. Sad reality. We can certainly have some impact, but consistent solid results count for everything.

Thus the need for change at the CSA.

[Ivan]

Maybe the TV ratings will say that many just stayed home to watch the game?