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CL Group Stage Draw


Jarrek

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So you'd prefer only having domestic leagues with no other competitions?

Why is Club football for you the most important competition? And I'm not asking to be a smart*ss, I'm actually interested in knowing.

Although I grew up in a polarized family (they cheered Benfica, I cheered Porto), for me National team games are the most important aspect of soccer. Followed by League competition.

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quote:Originally posted by River City

So you'd prefer only having domestic leagues with no other competitions?

Why is Club football for you the most important competition? And I'm not asking to be a smart*ss, I'm actually interested in knowing.

Although I grew up in a polarized family (they cheered Benfica, I cheered Porto), for me National team games are the most important aspect of soccer. Followed by League competition.

To be clear, I am saying that the domestic leagues would be more entertaining if the bloated Champions League never existed. I think we are paying a big price every weekend just so that once a month we can fill-up our Tuesday and Wednesday with some Champions League football viewing. The tournament is grossly overrated, IMO!

Re: National team football. I'm just saying that the quality of club football seems to be higher than NT football. Most NT games are total stinkers! But that has a lot to do with club teamates being more familiar with playing with each other.

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quote:Originally posted by amacpher

To be clear, I am saying that the domestic leagues would be more entertaining if the bloated Champions League never existed. I think we are paying a big price every weekend just so that once a month we can fill-up our Tuesday and Wednesday with some Champions League football viewing. The tournament is grossly overrated, IMO!

Re: National team football. I'm just saying that the quality of club football seems to be higher than NT football. Most NT games are total stinkers! But that has a lot to do with club teamates being more familiar with playing with each other.

I totally agree with Amacpher. While I personally enjoy the interesting matchups that UEFA CL gives us (can't wait for Roma / ManU at old trafford again), there can be no argument that teams involved in CL will often sacrifice their league fixture if they have a big CL match that week and that's not right, IMO.

As for National Team fixtures, the games can be quite good during tournaments when the teams have time to gather and train together for more than 1 day. I personally find friendlies to be mostly junk football (too sloppy). I have also been mostly unimpressed with alot of the Euro Cup qualifiers I have watched recently.

that being said, I would not advocate against stopping the schedule occasionally for FIFA mandated dates but I think the league schedules are interupted far too frequently and it disrupts the momentum of the season. Look at Italy and Spain. The league is just 2 weeks old and they are already stopping for 1 week. Foolish. Of course, not FIFA's fault because the Italian and Spanish federations did not have to start the league on August 26. They could have started a week or 2 earlier.

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Guest Jeffery S.

Two things:

First, Champions does not make the rich richer, or not necessarily. It in facts benefits the little guys more in relative terms than the big guys.

To start with, in gates: Rosenborg can charge big prices and will get an amazing gate for the Chelsea visit. Back in London, Chelsea will get a mediocre gate and will charge less for Rosenborg than for the top half of EPL. Rosenborg are happy about drawing Chelsea and Valencia, while neither of those two expect any financial benefit from a visit from the Norwegians.

Very similar principle to Cup games, you get to the round of 16 and the overacheiving teams in 2nd or 3rd division left all say they'd prefer to get Man U or Milan or Madrid at home, because they want the big gate. In Spain they automatically play at home, unlike England. The small get relatively richer and the big can actually lose money in these types of matches (a Rosenborg at Camp Nou would sell 50,000, and since Champions is included in the subscription package, very few of those are walk up sales, under 3,000; meanwhile, a Chelsea or Liverpool merits 80-85,000 or more).

Another reason Champions benefits the small more relatively than the rich: prize money.

Yes, the winners make somewhere around 30 million Euros a year, and the worst of the group stage around 3 million, a tenth of that.

30 million is a tenth of the Barcelona budget. 3 million, for Sparta Prague two years ago, would be about 30% of their budget.

So for a weak team making the group stages, the relative impact of both gates and prize money is much higher than for the so-called "rich" clubs.

And all of this has to be said that if it were not for the strong and rich clubs, the competition would not be watched, meaning less international tv rights, the gates would not be high in small stadiums, the sponsors would not be interested, and the entire competition, if designed for favour the poor guys even more, would become poor along with them, making the poor even poorer to boot.

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Two things:

First, Champions does not make the rich richer, or not necessarily. It in facts benefits the little guys more in relative terms than the big guys.

How does Champions League benefit Derby County, Swindon Town and QPR?

quote:

To start with, in gates: Rosenborg can charge big prices and will get an amazing gate for the Chelsea visit.

Making the Norweigen league even less competitive, as the richest club in Norway gets richer.

quote:

Back in London, Chelsea will get a mediocre gate and will charge less for Rosenborg than for the top half of EPL.

Yes, but its all icing on the cake for Chelsea. The night Chelsea plays Rosenborg and settles for a meagre $7 million or thereabouts, Derby County don't play anybody and get nothing.

quote:

Very similar principle to Cup games,

Cup games are entirely different since they involve everybody. Not just the 2-3 richest clubs in each country.

quote:

30 million is a tenth of the Barcelona budget. 3 million, for Sparta Prague two years ago, would be about 30% of their budget.

So even in the Czech league, the richest gets richer.

As for the international audience: Who gives a toss about them? It's a European competition meant for Europeans. All those excitable types in China would be perfectly satisfied, I'm sure, if there was only one 18-team league in Europe with names like "London", "Paris", "Barcelona", "Milan", etc.

But people like that *don't matter*. It's the real supporters that should be the priority. How long are they gonna put up with the same 4 clubs dominating the Premier League? The top teams are getting more and more points each season. The gap continues to widen year after year.

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Guest Jeffery S.

Derby County, Swindon Town and QPR, what the hell do they have to do with anything? If a rich owner comes along and wants to turn them into a stronger team (QPR with the very suspicious Ecclestone/Briatore alliance), it is only because of the allure of what is happening up higher. Apart from that, I could give a damn about the real success of any of those teams: and would you believe I have seen all three play in the last 3 years, funny isnt it.

Oh and are we going to cry now for the rest of the teams in Norway because Rosenborg won the league 14 years straight, had a burp, then came back last year? It is not their fault they did, if someone else wants it, well then, come on. This year they won't win it and won't be in Champions next year. That is what the prize is.

I think you simply do not like competitive sport, your whole thinking is based on the principles of the Special Olympics. I believe in those as well, I believe in access to sport and even to competition for all, as a stimulus to health and self-esteem. But don't go messing with the elites on me, man, keep those Swindon Towns far, far away from me, like the plague I say.

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Derby County, Swindon Town and QPR, what the hell do they have to do with anything?

Well, they're football clubs so they have to do with football. You know... the thing that we're talking about.

More specifically, this debate is about the interest-level of the domestic leagues. Which of course decreases as the gap between the Liverpools and Derby Countys increases.

quote:

If a rich owner comes along and wants to turn them into a stronger team (QPR with the very suspicious Ecclestone/Briatore alliance), it is only because of the allure of what is happening up higher.

LOL That's a bit of a stretch, wouldn't you say? I'll worry about addressing your "point" once the next Roman Abromavich buys a small club.

quote:

Apart from that, I could give a damn about the real success of any of those teams: and would you believe I have seen all three play in the last 3 years, funny isnt it.

Was your experience that bad? Or do you not think that supporters of those smaller clubs are just as big supporters as you and their opinion should count too?

Maybe you're just jealous that a second-tier club in England still has better stadium atmosphere than the Nou Camp. ;)

quote:

Oh and are we going to cry now for the rest of the teams in Norway because Rosenborg won the league 14 years straight, had a burp, then came back last year? It is not their fault they did, if someone else wants it, well then, come on.

Except they can't compete thanks, largely, to the existence of this over-rated competition referred to as the "Champions League".

And of course its "not their fault" but it sure as hell makes the Norweigen league a complete bore.

quote:

I think you simply do not like competitive sport,

ummm... I don't know about you, but I like the idea of sports being unpredictable. I don't have the greatest memory, but even I remember a time (it was just 6-7 years ago afterall), when there was a lot more competitive balance in the Premier League, La Liga and Serie "A" (the latter of which had 7 legitimate title contenders entering the season).

It's no coincidence, IMO, that the 3 leagues that UEFA give hand-jobs to all season, every season are the ones that have lost the most parity within their league.

quote:

your whole thinking is based on the principles of the Special Olympics. I believe in those as well, I believe in access to sport and even to competition for all, as a stimulus to health and self-esteem. But don't go messing with the elites on me, man, keep those Swindon Towns far, far away from me, like the plague I say.

So you use your favorite football team as an extension to your pen!s. Fine. But is that preventing you from looking at this issue/problem objectively?

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Easy guys...

While the smaller clubs that don't get a shot at the UCL get weaker, there is nothing stopping them from improving every year.

Porto won the UCL even though they are minnows compared to the rest of the lineup. If they are giants domestically (like Rosenborg) it's due to good management. My local team Santa Clara (from the Acores) made the first division years ago and were stupid enough to sell their star striker, Clayton Ferreira to Porto. They didn't need the money at the time, but they still did it.

A lot of the smaller clubs make boneheaded decisions and strengthen the big clubs thereby perpetuating their dominance domestically. I don't think the UCL should be scaled back so the Santa Claras (much as I love them) of Europe can make a few bucks.

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quote:Originally posted by River City

Easy guys...

While the smaller clubs that don't get a shot at the UCL get weaker, there is nothing stopping them from improving every year.

Porto won the UCL even though they are minnows compared to the rest of the lineup.

Well, knockout competitions allow for the odd "minnow" to have a chance. Too bad the money they get for winning the CL doesn't get dispersed throughout the Portuguese league, which could help make it a stronger league top-to-bottom in the long run.

quote:

If they are giants domestically (like Rosenborg) it's due to good management.

ummm... it has more to do with money and playing in a big market. The most successful clubs in each country play in the biggest markets of the country. The Champions League just tilts the playing field in favour of the big clubs even more.

quote:

My local team Santa Clara (from the Acores) made the first division years ago and were stupid enough to sell their star striker, Clayton Ferreira to Porto. They didn't need the money at the time, but they still did it.

Well, I assure you the decision came down to money. And Porto, with all that nice CL money coming in, can afford to overpay a bit to pluck players from clubs like Santa Clara.

quote:

A lot of the smaller clubs make boneheaded decisions and strengthen the big clubs thereby perpetuating their dominance domestically.

I don't know how you can make such a blanket statement.

Big clubs don't make boneheaded decisions? Look no further than Chelsea. If a club with a limited budget made as many retarded signings, they'd be the next Leeds United!

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amacpher,

1) revenue sharing

Whatever money Porto or Benfica win should be theirs. They are true clubs with different teams competing in various sports, youth academies, etc. Why should they have to share their winning with less successful teams, some of which (regardless of league) are only half a step above semi-pro.

2) Big Market Theory

Just because a club is in a big market doesn't mean squat. There are plenty of clubs in big markets that are run amateurishly.....Boavista in Porto, Belenenses in Lisbon (I'd add Benfica too, hehe). And another one of my teams and perhaps the biggest flops - Paris St. Germain. Sure it helps to be in a big city but it is no guarantee for success. You still need sound management. Like Villareal.

3) Santa Clara - Porto

Porto has other revenue streams than just the UCL. Santa Clara was run by inept wanna-be politicians.

4)Bone-headed decisions

If you reread what I wrote, I didn't say big clubs don't make bone-headed decisions. But their decisions don't usually give smaller teams an advantage, whereas a small club selling off their best player mid-season ends up 1)hurting them and 2) and helping others.

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What's the point of having a Champions League. It's too determine who is the best club team in the world and too produce the best quality football in the world.

I think the current set-up is great for the tournament. I cant believe some of you here...! Do you really want to see the Champions of Lithuania , Estonia , Iceland , Finland in this competition. NO is my answer.

I want to see the best teams in the world with the best players. Most of the clubs who become champions in those smaller leagues dont even have a proper stadium with the correct facilities.

Do you really want to watch FBK Kaunas vs Inter Milan on a tuesday night or a Chelsea vs Inter even though Chelsea aren't the ''champions'' of England.

I also think Platini is full of **** with his plan to ''take away places from top 4 leagues'' (And he is a dickhead himself as well). He is not taking away places from the biggest leagues in the world. He is taking away places from leagues who are based between 5/9 in the Uefa Coefficient ranking.

England can still have 3 qualifiers through the league and 1 via the FA Cup. Italy and Spain also.

The teams in the 5-9 region can still qualify with 2 teams but they then have to provide a shock result against the top 4. 1 team from the 5-9 will qualify through the league as champions and the cup winners will play a play-off game against the cup winners of the top 4 nations.

So you will see sort of match-ups like these... (Arsenal vs ajax) (Valencia vs A Bucarest club) (AS Roma vs Benfica)

Guess the winners..?? The top 4 leagues will BECOME STRONGER AND STRONGER because they can eliminate Nations who are based 5-9 and the top 4 still have 4 teams in the Champions League.

The clubs from nations like Holland , Romania , Portugal etc live for Champions League revenues. Should they be knocked out in the Qualifiers by the likes of Arsenal , Valencia , Roma they dont get any income which is disastrous for European Football.

And then teams like Rosenborg , CSKA Sofia , Debrecen , Salzburg , FBK Kaunas will get a automatic spot.

It's ridiculous.

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This might be a bit tangential, but the argument was made that dominant clubs in a domestic league tend to be in the country's major centres. In this discussion the name of Rosenborg was thrown about. In case anybody forgot, Rosenborg is in Trondheim, far from the more populated south, and well north of 60 degrees.

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Guest Jeffery S.

Just want to summarize to amacpher: I have probably seen more lower division pro soccer games than almost anyone on this site over the last decade. It is not boasting, I think it is true. Probably only Rocket Robin sees more lower tier games in different stadiums, though maybe there are others.

I don't think I am exagerrating, I have not only seen dozens of games from second, third, fourth and fifth tier Spanish clubs, but I have been in the small stadiums of almost all of them in my area, meaning I am not sitting in one small local stadium and watching them as they come to visit. I regularly go to see both Barça and Espanyol youth as well, if I told you who I'd seen play as a kid you wouldn't believe me (a few top pros now, including real stars playing in EPL). And I go as much to see my neighbourhood team, Poble Sec, as I do to see Barça. I probably also spend as much on lower level football as I do on top flight. I know players in 3rd, 4th and 5th tier as well, even though I am in my late 40s, in part because they have coached my kid. In part because I am actually quite friendly despite my snarky image here.

So for me the whole Manichean argument you are making is just a boring right side of the brain-left side of the brain form of reasoning, you are from Venus and I'm from Mars, pretty rudimentary and awkward, and in the form of a tiresome rant about Champions. I love elite soccer and love the lower tier game as well. That does not cause great emotional suffering on my part. My view are harmonious and integrated, and I can dig you all. Peace.

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quote:Originally posted by SCF08

What's the point of having a Champions League. It's too determine who is the best club team in the world and too produce the best quality football in the world.

If that's the case, then why invite 4th-place clubs? And why seed them higher than the clubs that finished 20+ points ahead of them in their own domestic league?

Do you think AC Milan v Liverpool was a battle of the top 2 teams in the world to determine who is #1. They got to the final because of cake draws (at least in Milan's case) combined with the fact that they were so hopeless in their own domestic league that they could afford to focus entirely on CL.

quote:

I think the current set-up is great for the tournament. I cant believe some of you here...! Do you really want to see the Champions of Lithuania , Estonia , Iceland , Finland in this competition. NO is my answer.

ummm... I don't think anybody here is saying that. Just beacuse we want no more than 2 clubs from a country, doesn't mean FBK Kaunas needs to be involved in the CL final. [:o)] They would likely be eliminated in the qualifying rounds just like they were this past August.

We can easily have a 24-team group stage that contains no 3rd and 4th place clubs, and at the same time, doesn't contain any league champions that are weaker than those that have advanced to this season's CL group-stage.

And even IF (big IF) the group-stage would be slightly weaker overall, the knockout rounds will be much better (no chance of having 2 fourth-place teams meeting in the CL Final)

quote:

Do you really want to watch FBK Kaunas vs Inter Milan on a tuesday night or a Chelsea vs Inter even though Chelsea aren't the ''champions'' of England.

LOL Do you think youre gonna see Chelsea v Inter on Tuesday? Try Fenerbahçe v Inter instead. And Chelsea v some mid-table Norweigen club.

quote:

I also think Platini is full of **** with his plan to ''take away places from top 4 leagues'' (And he is a dickhead himself as well). He is not taking away places from the biggest leagues in the world. He is taking away places from leagues who are based between 5/9 in the Uefa Coefficient ranking.

England can still have 3 qualifiers through the league and 1 via the FA Cup. Italy and Spain also.

The teams in the 5-9 region can still qualify with 2 teams but they then have to provide a shock result against the top 4. 1 team from the 5-9 will qualify through the league as champions and the cup winners will play a play-off game against the cup winners of the top 4 nations.

So you will see sort of match-ups like these... (Arsenal vs ajax) (Valencia vs A Bucarest club) (AS Roma vs Benfica)

Guess the winners..?? The top 4 leagues will BECOME STRONGER AND STRONGER because they can eliminate Nations who are based 5-9 and the top 4 still have 4 teams in the Champions League.

The clubs from nations like Holland , Romania , Portugal etc live for Champions League revenues. Should they be knocked out in the Qualifiers by the likes of Arsenal , Valencia , Roma they dont get any income which is disastrous for European Football.

And then teams like Rosenborg , CSKA Sofia , Debrecen , Salzburg , FBK Kaunas will get a automatic spot.

It's ridiculous.

Well, yeah, that is dumb, if he in fact proposed that idea. (I don't listen to those muppets that run UEFA and FIFA)

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Just want to summarize to amacpher: I have probably seen more lower division pro soccer games than almost anyone on this site over the last decade. It is not boasting, I think it is true. Probably only Rocket Robin sees more lower tier games in different stadiums, though maybe there are others.

I don't think I am exagerrating, I have not only seen dozens of games from second, third, fourth and fifth tier Spanish clubs, but I have been in the small stadiums of almost all of them in my area, meaning I am not sitting in one small local stadium and watching them as they come to visit. I regularly go to see both Barça and Espanyol youth as well, if I told you who I'd seen play as a kid you wouldn't believe me (a few top pros now, including real stars playing in EPL). And I go as much to see my neighbourhood team, Poble Sec, as I do to see Barça. I probably also spend as much on lower level football as I do on top flight. I know players in 3rd, 4th and 5th tier as well, even though I am in my late 40s, in part because they have coached my kid. In part because I am actually quite friendly despite my snarky image here.

So for me the whole Manichean argument you are making is just a boring right side of the brain-left side of the brain form of reasoning, you are from Venus and I'm from Mars, pretty rudimentary and awkward, and in the form of a tiresome rant about Champions. I love elite soccer and love the lower tier game as well. That does not cause great emotional suffering on my part. My view are harmonious and integrated, and I can dig you all. Peace.

Yeah, I figured that. I just don't understand the elitist attitude.

And actually, under the system I propose, the late knockout rounds of the CL would feature better teams than what we're stuck with today (see my previous post).

Lets face it: UEFA only does this for money. In other words, they screw us fans up the arse. What's amazing is that only some of us are resisting. Others are simply grabbing their ankles and enjoying the ride. That's the typical North American sports fan attitude. No wonder franchises in North America treat their fans like garbage. (The same goes for the fans of the G-14 in Europe, but they are the minority).

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