Iceland: Good, Bad & Ugly

[gkhs]

Sorry to start a new thread, but the Game thread is a bit messy, and the "What Canucks have to..." thread has descended into name calling.

I'm not sure why people (especially people who didn't see the match) are freaking out about this result...watch the stream, Canada really did not play poorly at all. They were quite attractive for long stretches.

Good:

- Gerba and Occean, good pace, hustle & positional play, they look like as good a tandem as I have ever seen on CMNT.

- Stalteri, solid throughout, really seized his chance on the goal.

Bad:

- The central defence situation was bad, and that is being kind. Far too many poor clearances and questionable marking. They also struggled in getting the ball forward.

Ugly:

- The pitch, really took the level of the game down a notch or too. Short passes were ok, but longer link-up was pretty much impossible. To their credit, I think Canada learned this lesson early and mostly stuck to short passes.

Lessons for the future:

- The CD needs a full make-over, as (IMO) it was weak at the GC as well. I think its possible we need to employ JB in CD. Maybe a McKenna/Brennan tandem, for a Big/Fast pair.

- I loved De Guzman's run of possession, but I felt he was a bit wasted playing so deep. I would love to see he farther forward, as in the GC, but I don't see who else we have who could play the 'Nash' role in front of the defense. Any suggestions? (Please don't say Nash)

[gkhs]

Also, going forward, I think we need to include a set piece specialist in every 11. (Maybe JB) Our set pieces of late haven't been terrible, but they haven't been productive either.

[El Hombre]

quote:Originally posted by gkhs

- I loved De Guzman's run of possession, but I felt he was a bit wasted playing so deep. I would love to see he farther forward, as in the GC, but I don't see who else we have who could play the 'Nash' role in front of the defense. Any suggestions? (Please don't say Nash)

I think Jim Brennan would excel here rather than at CB. He's very sharp defensively but he also has the offensive acumen to start the attack from the back.

Of course that leaves a hole in CB.

[jpg75]

The holding mid role in front of the CB's and behind the Hutch-De Guzman tandem needs to be Tam Nsaliwa - if he's still eligible to play for us. When he moved to that position last season his team went from being relegation threatened to a Top 6 challenger in the Greek league. And his play earned him a move to AEK where he cleans up for Rivaldo (he's also played on the right wing). I can't think of anyone else who can play that role as well as that.

[gkhs]

quote:Originally posted by El Hombre

I think Jim Brennan would excel here rather than at CB. He's very sharp defensively but he also has the offensive acumen to start the attack from the back.

Of course that leaves a hole in CB.

This is my frustration too...I think the three best options are JB, Stalteri and De Guzman, all of whom are (IMO) needed at other positions.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by El Hombre

I think Jim Brennan would excel here rather than at CB. He's very sharp defensively but he also has the offensive acumen to start the attack from the back.

Of course that leaves a hole in CB.

Which can be filled by McKenna, Hastings and even Pozniak, as well as one of the two youngsters (Edgar & Hainault).

Given that Imhof almost never plays at CB, if ever & was partnered with a young player, I think we can afford to cut them some slack for this game.

Also, there are a lot of players who can play that holding mid role in a 5 man midfield - Poz, Imhof, Harmse, Brennan, Tam, Stalteri, Serioux......that's the position that we arguably have the most depth for.

[Toronto MB]

In regards to the CB problems, obviously they stem purely from our lack of "available" personnel. I am still a firm believer that despite Canada's progression to a more on-the-ground and stylish build-up, Kevin McKenna and Jason DeVos can still do the job at CB. Both offer great leadership, strength in the air (especially against smaller CONCACAF sides) and a presence in the opposing box we have been missing lately. Luckily, we also have Hainault, Hastings and even Tam who could also fill the gaps. The real unfortunate part about having Imhof at centre back is that we didn't get to see what he could really do in his proper role. I hope someone will ask Mitchell how he feels about bringing DeVos out for one of the next friendlies.

In regards to our lack of a play-making defensive-mid, I agree that Brennan could well be an interesting choice. I have been impressed with Jazic at LB, where I had originally envisioned JB. I do like Nash, but honestly, his fitness/skills/pace are not up to the calibre we need in this team. He plays the right style but cannot compete at the same level as Atiba/JDG/Stalteri/etc...

And up front, yes we do have way more options than I can ever remember Canada having. I also agree that both Occean and Gerba played fairly well, and have shown stronger form in recent games for Canada. Friend is a secondary target man in the mix, but has done less to impress than OO and Ali. I love Hume, he is probably my favourite player, but I think he is best used as a sub. As shown vs US his quality can cause all kinds of problems for a weary defence. Also his intensity and hustle can really sway the pace and momentum of a lagging game. Radz IMO showed the second best quality to JDG in terms of skill and pace and can still do great things for us, I can see him as a good pairing with a larger target man in a 4-4-2 or on the opposite flank to DeRo in a 4-5-1. He would also be a perfect substitue.

Issey impressed me in a moderate kind of way. Not a starter for WCQ but an adequate sub and a player with potential, he shows a good desire to get forward. Again, too bad Imhof didnt get a crack in mid.

Onstad was solid, but less than class. A good back-up option, I hold out faith that Lars is technically superior and simply more agile.

So based on the little more info gained yesterday, my updated roster:

-------------Hirshfeld-------------

Stalteri©--Devos---McKenna---Jazic

--------------Brennan--------------

------Hutchinson-------JDG---------

Radz-----------------------DeRoasrio

--------------Gerba-----------------

Subs:

GK: Onstad

D: Hastings, Nsaliwa (quality enough to start, just needs to put in a good performance to earn his spot, can also play mid)

M: Nakijima-Farran, Imhof

S: Hume, Occean

[gkhs]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Which can be filled by McKenna, Hastings and even Pozniak, as well as one of the two youngsters (Edgar & Hainault).

Given that Imhof almost never plays at CB, if ever & was partnered with a young player, I think we can afford to cut them some slack for this game.

Also, there are a lot of players who can play that holding mid role in a 5 man midfield - Poz, Imhof, Harmse, Brennan, Tam, Stalteri, Serioux......that's the position that we arguably have the most depth for.

Yikes. Where to begin. If Edgar were ready, Imhof would not have been forced into the middle last night. Hainault is not ready to start WCQers.

I can't believe you're a Torontonian and you still believe in Poz. As far as I'm concerned he is strictly and in-case-of-emergency depth player. And again, by the transitive property, if Poz or Harmse could do it, they would have been in there ahead of Nash.

Serioux hasn't played that position recently, and isn't in great form after the injury.

Stalteri would to badly missed at RB (since that is likely our weakest position depth-wise.

Likewise, Brennan would leave a hole in CD.

I really believe that CMNT is as good as it has ever been, but if we are looking for a useful distributor of the ball at that position, it is not a deep position at all.

[jonovision]

I think one player who is being overlooked for the defensive midfield position is Bernier. This is probably because he hasn't played there for Canada. But he does play there for his club (so far this year) and I think this position better suits his abilities, rather than as an attacking midfield role where he is being asked to create.

[gkhs]

quote:Originally posted by Toronto MB

Kevin McKenna and Jason DeVos can still do the job at CB.

The real unfortunate part about having Imhof at centre back is that we didn't get to see what he could really do in his proper role.

I also agree that both Occean and Gerba played fairly well, and have shown stronger form in recent games for Canada. Friend is a secondary target man in the mix, but has done less to impress than OO and Ali.

I love Hume, he is probably my favourite player, but I think he is best used as a sub.

Radz IMO showed the second best quality to JDG in terms of skill and pace and can still do great things for us, I can see him as a good pairing with a larger target man in a 4-4-2 or on the opposite flank to DeRo in a 4-5-1. He would also be a perfect substitue.

I think De Vos or McKenna can definitely hold down one spot, I'm not in love with having them in there together...I'd like one of the pair to have a bit more pace.

Agree about Imhof, it was a bit of a missed opportunity.

I like Occean and Gerba as the top pair...and Friend as the top stand alone. And I love the option to play with 1 or 2 strikers.

Agreed about Hume and Radz. I love both, especially as subs...and as wide players in a 4-5-1 or 4-4-2

[gkhs]

quote:Originally posted by jonovision

I think one player who is being overlooked for the defensive midfield position is Bernier. This is probably because he hasn't played there for Canada. But he does play there for his club (so far this year) and I think this position better suits his abilities, rather than as an attacking midfield role where he is being asked to create.

I'd be curious to see what his skills as a distributor would be like...I think he and Hutch have the same question mark in that respect. Can they be "quarterbacks" as DMs...I don't really think that's their strength.

Toronto MB, was Bernier left off of your list on purpose?

[Toronto MB]

You're right. I did forget Bernier in mid, I don't see him a great solution to the "who's-going-to-replace-Nash" dilemna, but probably a better attackign mid than Issey. And no I haven't seen him play in the defensive distributor role, have you? If so, how is he? I do like his play overall.

[gkhs]

quote:Originally posted by Toronto MB

You're right. I did forget Bernier in mid, I don't see him a great solution to the "who's-going-to-replace-Nash" dilemna, but probably a better attackign mid than Issey. And no I haven't seen him play in the defensive distributor role, have you? If so, how is he? I do like his play overall.

I do prefer him slightly to Issey. I haven't seen him play a distributor role.

I think he might be used as more of a destroyer type defensive mid...I'm sure there is someone more qualified to comment.

[Toronto MB]

Just out of curiosity, what do you think the actual odds of us seeing Jason DeVos in Canada jersey are?

And secondly, regardless of DeVos, will Mitchell use McKenna at CB?

[Soju]

Toronto MB I like your line up but I wouldn't write off Kluko I think he's got game in him. If DeVos is unrealistic what about a Klukowski/McKenna pairing? Perhaps too slow. Let's also not forget Hastings earned a spot on the Gold Cup best 11 for his work at CB.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by gkhs

I'd be curious to see what his skills as a distributor would be like....

Well this game wasn't, IMO, the best advert for them in terms of long-range distribution. Possibly outside of the goal (which we never really get a good look at other than our two central defenders were both beaten on the play), I don't know that Iceland created a good scoring chance at home that came from their own creative play - rather everything was off (occasionally dubious) free kicks & corner kicks and the occasional Canadian mistake - the most glaring of which was a poor long-range Bernier pass after a Canadian corner (shortly after the Iceland goal) that was picked off with most of our players caught up field.

What I liked about the Canadian goal by comparison, is that it was another example of us creating the goal ourselves rather than relying on set-pieces, counter-attacks or opposition blunders in the middle of the park gifting us with the opportunities. There were another 6 or 7 passes between many different teammates before Stalteri got his shot off. We are starting to see more & more goals for Canada this way, and that's the sort of creativity we need in a game like this when the conditions aren't the best & the home team is sitting back on us for long stretches of the game.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by gkhs

Yikes. Where to begin. If Edgar were ready, Imhof would not have been forced into the middle last night. Hainault is not ready to start WCQers.

I can't believe you're a Torontonian and you still believe in Poz. As far as I'm concerned he is strictly and in-case-of-emergency depth player. And again, by the transitive property, if Poz or Harmse could do it, they would have been in there ahead of Nash.

Serioux hasn't played that position recently, and isn't in great form after the injury.

Stalteri would to badly missed at RB (since that is likely our weakest position depth-wise.

Likewise, Brennan would leave a hole in CD.

I really believe that CMNT is as good as it has ever been, but if we are looking for a useful distributor of the ball at that position, it is not a deep position at all.

I don't agree with very much of this. Edgar is not ready to play alongside Hainault & vice versa, but alongside a more experienced player would be an option. Not a first choice option, but still part of the depth. Poz has played well for TFC so I don't know what you are on about there - and I thought he looked better than Nash at the Gold Cup, particularly given that Nash couldn't make any defensive tackles which hurt us badly against Guadeloupe. Granted he wouldn't be a first choice for me, but that wasn't the intent of my post, it was to discuss the depth available. I also think Harmse is a better choice than Nash - what you might lose in long-range accuracy you gain is many more areas. The defensive side of that role is just as important, if not more so, than the ability to hit long passes to forward players.

As for Brennan, while he is an option at CB, if McKenna & Hastings are called to the next friendly against Costa Rica, would you still play Brennan there? What about Serioux, who plays there for Dallas? I don't know the answers to these questions, I think we need the friendlies to figure this stuff out.

I like Stalteri at right back as the #1 option but I do think we have other options there that could be used if need be, like Ledgerwood, Harmse, Imhof and Nsaliwa. And Serioux used to play there for the Lynx.

[gkhs]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Poz has played well for TFC so I don't know what you are on about there - and I thought he looked better than Nash at the Gold Cup, particularly given that Nash couldn't make any defensive tackles which hurt us badly against Guadeloupe.

As for Brennan, while he is an option at CB, if McKenna & Hastings are called to the next friendly against Costa Rica, would you still play Brennan there? What about Serioux, who plays there for Dallas? I don't know the answers to these questions, I think we need the friendlies to figure this stuff out.

I like Stalteri at right back as the #1 option but I do think we have other options there that could be used if need be, like Ledgerwood, Harmse, Imhof and Nsaliwa. And Serioux used to play there for the Lynx.

I'm not a Poz fan, though I would admit that he has been the best of the non-Brennan Canadian TFCers. Its more that I don't think he has any touch for distribution.

I am definitely a Serioux fan. He and McKenna in CD would be my first choice in most cases. But if we don't need JB in midfield or at left-back (thats a big if) I would definitely consider him, perhaps over Serioux.

I think my point about Stalteri is that the drop off from him to our number 2 choice is greater than at anywhere else on the pitch.

[lefoot]

man i am so stoked we have a team with some options...debate for different positions...i hope hope hope...that the hart and mitchell tandem works out well. honestly i think hart's energy and presence on the sideline during the GC did wonders for the team.

i haven't seen any highlights of the Iceland fixture, but man i really want us to keep playing european sides. its about time we pushed past the dregs of concacaf and started enjoying international football fixtures with a side that can compete.

i think the side will push into the top 50 slot in teh world, and start challenging for top 40 soon enough...in the end..i really want us to have home and away series with the US...and show them how to play ball..i think our side has finally regained the ground we lost over the last two decades...

i hope we have a fixture against a bigger european country this winter, so i can fly over and catch it!!

[TOcanadafan]

quote:Originally posted by lefoot

its about time we pushed past the dregs of concacaf and started enjoying international football fixtures with a side that can compete.

I think we really need to keep playing CONCACAF teams in order to prepare for WCQ. It's all nice to be able to go into Austria and beat them, however, that's not going to get us in the World Cup. How can we prepare to get wins at home and ties on the road against the likes of Costa Rica and Hounduras, if we never play with similar teams in similar conditions (like playing in hostile, hot and humid conditions)? Once we can consistently excel in CONCACAF (we still can't seem to go into the better central American teams and pick up results when it counts) then we can start concentrating on European teams. I think the US has it right. They built their program to be the best in CONCACAF (and with their recent successes against Mexico I would say they are) and now they can set their sights on being one of the better sides across the globe by molding their team to beat European sides (e.g., playing friendlies against upper tier teams like Sweden)

[mjoni]

Have to give some credit to Issey, he had a solid game and showed that he's a two way player.

Otherwise not overly impressed with our play...sluggish ball movement from the defenders, our midfielders almost always facing the wrong way when they receive a pass and a fair bit of general disorganization. We need a system that suits our guys, and then we need to stick to it and not be constantly experiementing with formations.

[BearcatSA]

Good discussion of the holding role position, folks. Now here's my two cents:

- Nash isn't an option: he's too slow defensively, a point driven home like a stake into sand on a number of occasions during the GC semi. As I said at the time, he had a great Indian summer at the GC and that's how his international career should end. Thanks for the great effort, Martin!

- I don't think Harmse is of international pedigree. I think he's really good at following Yallop's specific instructions for the Galaxy, but he lacks the quickness needed at international level and his passing skills are weak: in fact in one Galaxy match it seemed as if some of his teammates were avoiding giving him the ball. For what he does, I'd rather have an extra CB in there in his spot (which is what Keegan tried with Southgate vs Germany in the last game at old Wembley, with poor results).

- Serioux: I thought he originally came into the MLS with NY/NJ to be a defensive midfielder: Mo traded him to Houston where Kinnear turned him into a centre back, and then he's traded to Dallas with Morrow seeing him also as a centre back. How come he's not been able to regain a regular spot in midfield at club level?

- as a general rule of thumb I prefer to see players slotted into similar positions and roles that they play at club level, with obvious exceptions due to injury/availability. I have seen Imhoff in the role during the last WCQ and I had no problem with him there but that's three years ago, so he needs to be reassessed. Bernier has put some steel into his most recent club performance (straight red card plus extended suspension) and I think the defensive side of his game is effective. The joker in the pack is Nsaliwa: based on his recent club performances he was my first choice for the job, but his availability/interest remains in doubt.

[BrennanFan]

quote:Originally posted by BearcatSA

- Serioux: I thought he originally came into the MLS with NY/NJ to be a defensive midfielder: Mo traded him to Houston where Kinnear turned him into a centre back, and then he's traded to Dallas with Morrow seeing him also as a centre back. How come he's not been able to regain a regular spot in midfield at club level?

I recall Serioux played as the defensive mid in a diamond midfield for the MLS Cup Final game last year.

But if he and JB are centre backs now, then so be it. the more centre backs we have the better. less than a yr to go and this remains a question mark for us. actually, only 4 of the eleven starting positions are settled (dero/hutch/deguz/stalteri). mitchell has work 2 do. ok debut for him tho. good selections, good away result.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan

I recall Serioux played as the defensive mid in a diamond midfield for the MLS Cup Final game last year.

I remember he was moved into that position early in the match when Houston seemed to be outmanned in midfield.

I guess my point is that both Kinnear and now Morrow think centre back is his best position now, as opposed to midfield. And I think that is good because he can be in the CB mix for the MNT in the very near future but also he can prolong his soccer career (I see a guy like David Weir is still playing!)

[Ivan]

Like BearcatSA said, I believe Nsaliwa is the guy if he is committed.