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"3.5 from the Argentine judge"


Ben Knight

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Is that article a serious call for fans to carry number signs to matches? If the fans got on TV everytime it might be funny but it will never shame players. The world's mentality is it's players vs. ref. Ref = THE MAN. If we try to deceive the man and get caught, eff it. In N. America we see this as shameful cheating, perhaps in western Europe? But not in the rest of the world. Unfortunately (because I hate diving) any knowledgeable fans I've met abroad say it's part of the game and clever.

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Guest Jeffery S.

After watching a Coventry-Espanyol friendly last night, with the home team called for over 30 fouls (by an EPL ref at that), flying into tackles late with the spikes up, with a few of the visitors limping off, and then have to put up with their disgraceful coach making diving motions every time one of his goons got a card for aiming at a knee instead of the ball, with the rest of the morons in the stands going along with the jeering, you realize that the bitching about diving is a disease amongst many. With the sole purpose of defending the goons, hacks, morons and no talents of the world so they can do their macho posing in the face of superior talent.

Yes, I think Ben's article is entirely misdirected, you guys have to get out of the house, stop sucking solely from the teat of English sport journalism, and go watch some talent somewhere (preferably with your eyes braced open, your limbs latched down, and Beethoven being blasted in the background).

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Guest Jeffery S.
quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I bet Jeffrey was the biggest diver on every team he played, at least in the days before he became the official defender/apologist of downtrodden, oppressed Latins the world over.

See how it all comes down to culture? How you defend yours -blatantly and blindly- by slagging others, what an insecure way to reason, with your back up.

I was so bad as a player I not only did not dive, but did not foul. I think I was only carded once in 11 years of youth play (for trying to help the ref).

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quote:Originally posted by Soju

Unfortunately (because I hate diving) any knowledgeable fans I've met abroad say it's part of the game and clever.

True.

Also (going back to the article) the excessive use of stretchers was brought in-to soocer for the purpose of speeding the game up. No longer does the ref have to consider whether the player is actually injured or not. Just get him off the field quickly and continue play.

I never understood how the people complaining about these 20-second stoppages for players to "recover" (from which only about 10% are from a player feigning his injury), are the same ones who would actually sit through an entire hockey game (like sheep) which is littered with long timeouts and other stoppages, even in addition to the laughable 2 "half-times". I mean, what could be more corrupt (and boring) than that?

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Guest Jeffery S.
quote:Originally posted by amacpher

True.

Also (going back to the article) the excessive use of stretchers was brought in-to soocer for the purpose of speeding the game up. No longer does the ref have to consider whether the player is actually injured or not. Just get him off the field quickly and continue play.

I never understood how the people complaining about these 20-second stoppages for players to "recover" (from which only about 10% are from a player feigning his injury), are the same ones who would actually sit through an entire hockey game (like sheep) which is littered with long timeouts and other stoppages, even in addition to the laughable 2 "half-times". I mean, what could be more corrupt (and boring) than that?

Of course. It is not only time-outs, but the simple fact than in all other sports you can sub in and out at will, minute by minute. A guy gets a knock and he goes to the bench, and recovers there, slowly, with medical attention. They sit with an ice pack on an ankle for 12 minutes, or rub their bruises, or they blot the stream of blood, then come back in when they are good and ready.

In soccer it is not like that, and you are nuts if you take that risk in casual fashion. You only have three subs and you always want to ensure they are tactical and not for injury (or for a red card to the keeper). You try to make sure they are in the critical period of the game, almost never in the first half. So you have to be very measured and careful with injuries, you have to get it right.

This is why I think a player who has been clipped or fouled hard or bumped has every right to stay down and make sure he is okay, let the doctors come on and take a look. You recover on the pitch so as to not leave your team a man short while being treated on the sidelines. That is how the game is played intelligently folks.

What other sport do you see a team ceding a man advantage for an injury, even for the shortest of time? N'existen pas. In basketball you are talking about seconds. In hockey you see a fellow player down and you cover up the puck or ice it. In baseball maybe a few seconds (a 2nd basemen is hurt on a lunging infield play and does not get back to base to cover). American football it will last a play, 8-12 seconds, if that. Handball, volleyball, waterpolo even, all short periods, with timeouts available just in case. Maybe the only possible comparison is rugby, where they are often encouraged to play through knocks, but mostly because of how the game flows. But even then one player disadvantage is not as signficant for a short period as it is in soccer, where a man down is a 10% depletion of outfield representation immediately.

The Scottish FA has come out today with new guidelines on the integrity of the game, referring to fouling and diving. At least they have the honesty to put the two together, something the closet pro wrestling fans in North America, the ones who dare lecture us about how the N. American sports fan resists soccer for this particular reason, are not honest enough to do.

When are these guys going to stop demanding from soccer something they do not have the guts to require from any other sport, as an excuse to slag it?

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Diving is rearing its ugly head in hockey and i think that is pathetic. I couldn't stand to watch the Argentina /Chile match at the U20....if i was any less civilized i would sharpen my quarters and whip them at there heads.....all divers....all sports...except diving

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YES!!!!!KICK ARSE!

ohhh and jeffrey has a point about people just claiming someone dived cause the call didn't go there way, in the chile argentina game, in the second half, it seemed like every call, whether it was an obvious foul (and the chileans did foul more in the second half as they lost composure) or if it was a blatant dive, the chileans would lose their minds and freak out.

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

After watching a Coventry-Espanyol friendly last night, with the home team called for over 30 fouls (by an EPL ref at that), flying into tackles late with the spikes up, with a few of the visitors limping off, and then have to put up with their disgraceful coach making diving motions every time one of his goons got a card for aiming at a knee instead of the ball, with the rest of the morons in the stands going along with the jeering, you realize that the bitching about diving is a disease amongst many. With the sole purpose of defending the goons, hacks, morons and no talents of the world so they can do their macho posing in the face of superior talent.

Yes, I think Ben's article is entirely misdirected, you guys have to get out of the house, stop sucking solely from the teat of English sport journalism, and go watch some talent somewhere (preferably with your eyes braced open, your limbs latched down, and Beethoven being blasted in the background).

I used to be the type to balk at diving, but ever since the U-20s I've found myself moving more and more into Jeffrey S's camp.

For a soccer fan, such as myself, living in a what is basically a soccer wasteland, the U20s was a once in a life time opportunity to watch world class talent minutes from my door step. Prior to this tournament, I'd never seen a goal up close that I'd even classify as world class or worthy of any long term memory. After the U20's, I'd seen at least a half dozen. I was left in awe of the talent I got to see at BMO, and am thankful for the opportunity to have witnessed it. Yet listening to some of the "fans" seated around me, you'd think they'd paid $200 simply for the priviledge of making "witty" remarks everytime a player went to ground. I doubt that in all their false outrage they even took the time to appreciate the talent on display.

Was there diving? Sure. But years from now I'm not going to remember that. I'm going to remember Dos Santos' volley, Aguero's flick on to himself, and Morralez's numerous runs through the defense. The anti-diving brigade, on the other hand, will only have memories of thier own silly comments, which were only funny to themselves.

The whole issue of diving has been blown so out of preportion that I wonder how many people are missing the entire point of the game. Listening to these people, you'd think they'd prefer the game to be played by talentlesss "heart and soul" players who 'get stuck in' and 'never give up.' If that were the case, the game would surely die a quick death. I doubt anyone would pay to watch that, no matter how romanticized it may be in people's minds.

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There is, I think, something of a difference between a bit of an embellishment of a legit foul and diving to gain unfair advantage. Like the late challenge, the hand of god etc. etc. It is cheating. In some cases, card accumulation not only effects the game under play, it effects future games as well. I do not see how one differentiates between an attempt to take a player out of the game with a dive versus the same attempt via physical play. Let me give you an example. Can't recall his name, but there was a lad on the Argentine U-20 side who, versus Chile, was given an extermely weak yellow based on an embellishment by Vidal. The player obviously continued in the match, and ended up scoring a backbreaker goal later on. However, due to card accumulation, he had to miss the Championship Final. This might well be the biggest game of his career and he misses it because an official bit on a dive. In what world is that justice, or good for the game, or entertaining?

At some point, every player fouls. The officials have avenue to deal with chronic foulers with yellows for accumulation. Officials can go direct red for more serious offences. I like this, and when properly done, greatly enhances the quality of play on the field and penalizes the teams unable to contain their opponent fairly. I think that diving should be cracked down upon and that, equally, the same is true for dirty play.

Just as there is a difference between a shirt tug and a studs high tackle, I think there is a difference between going to ground easily and simulating a phantom foul.

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Guest Jeffery S.

I don't know why I love this topic so much, I guess it because it ends up going to the heart of so many important things about the game.

There is another point that has to be made about soccer in comparison with other sports. I am referring to how people stand up and what makes them fall. I have been rather sensitive to this issue since early June when I tore my Achilles tendon, been on crutches ever since, still not putting weight on my foot. Very tough frankly, sometimes quite depressing too.

But the point is that in no other sport are you required to play with the ball using the same things you use to stand up with, namely your legs and feet. In sports where the technical action is done with legs and feet, even individual sports, falling is constant. Think of two different ones like skiing -where you could use poles as well- and skateboarding. Look up a ski hill or go to a skate park and you will essentially see constant falling. If hockey players did not have sticks and had to play with their skates, ice soccer, you would see the same thing, and even more if you took away the boards.

This means that the more talented you are on the ball, the more dexterous, the more finesse, the higher the possibility of being knocked off your balance by even a slight touch. Sure, you could stay up and lose the ball, and many great players were not fallers, they were strong and stable and sure-footed, that is a virtue. But it depends on the player. I recall Butragueño, who I admired but did not like being a RM player, and he was always falling, often alone. But he ran incredibly light-footed with the ball, he floated, his touches on the pitch were very soft, and it seemed anytime the wind blew he fell over (Barça fan complaint I admit).

So depends on the player. If you ask me whether a youth player in Spain will be taught to dive, definitely not. If you ask if the coach will tell a player to go down if fouled, perhaps yes, he will be told that if the ref is not going to call fouling, is going to let the opponent hack you, better to help the ref call it.

Not going to be that the guys with the ball trying to attack are going to be cut down without consequence.

If you ask me if refs in Spain card diving or embellishment, well definitely not. They tend to permit it, the norm is soft. But since the reffing in Spain is pretty atrocious, that is just one more black mark against them.

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

See how it all comes down to culture? How you defend yours -blatantly and blindly- by slagging others, what an insecure way to reason, with your back up.

I was so bad as a player I not only did not dive, but did not foul. I think I was only carded once in 11 years of youth play (for trying to help the ref).

Thank-you for the hypothesis of my mental state while I posted this Jeffrey. Where would we be on this forum without your brilliant psychological and sociological analysis?

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quote:Originally posted by Gordon

There is, I think, something of a difference between a bit of an embellishment of a legit foul and diving to gain unfair advantage.

....

Just as there is a difference between a shirt tug and a studs high tackle, I think there is a difference between going to ground easily and simulating a phantom foul.

EXACTLY.

You want to sell the ref on a foul, then go ahead. "Punter Cheeta" doesn't actually a problem with that.

But there's an expectation of what should qualify as a reasonable amount of contact (under whatever circumstance) which would qualify as a foul. I've no interest in the so-called quality of those entertaining and artfull players who need an empty field to display their "skills" on. None whatsoever.

Retroactive penalties have been applied against the "thuggish" players using video replay for a couple of years now and I see no reason why the same can't be applied to that football cancer we call diving.

It's no accident the EPL with it's out-of-date-views on diving is worth a billion dollars TV revenue (with much of that revenue justified by overseas subscription). No accident at all. What happened to La Liga and Serie A that they got passed by that boring and dusty old EPL, eh? Being dramatic but you get where I'm at?

Diving is a BIG problem WORLD WIDE</u>. A lot of people may shrug and say "that's football" but as many would say they would be just as happy to see football rid of it.

Hope the SPL experiment which begins after the New Year proves usefull. I'd LOVE to see it used as a template for similiar programs everywhere.

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I think some of us are worried footballers are becoming pansies and others worried they're becoming thugs, so hopefully video replay can greatly reduce both. I'm totally in favour of retroactive penalties, why not? It'll add more to the soap opera and curb cheating while not slowing down the game (not a fan of the "calls up stairs" approach as seen in NHL as I think it disrupts flow too much). This SPL experiment is great news we should watch it closely.

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quote:Originally posted by JayWay

I used to be the type to balk at diving, but ever since the U-20s I've found myself moving more and more into Jeffrey S's camp.

...

Was there diving? Sure. But years from now I'm not going to remember that. I'm going to remember Dos Santos' volley, Aguero's flick on to himself, and Morralez's numerous runs through the defense. The anti-diving brigade, on the other hand, will only have memories of thier own silly comments, which were only funny to themselves.

I'm not sure what the amount of diving has to do with the amount of spectacular volleys, nifty flicks, etc. I realize that the dive-happy nations are also the more technically skilled nations, generally speaking, but if they stopped diving it wouldn't stop them from being just as skillful with the ball. Much like if a "thug" started diving, they wouldn't suddenly become Ronaldinho.

Unfortunately, it doesn't occur in practice much. Only a handfull of players come to mind when I think of players who are a pure joy to watch because of their skill PLUS they rarely dive (Wayne Rooney, Steven Gerrard, Michael Essien, Tim Cahill...)

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quote:Originally posted by amacpher

Much like if a "thug" started diving, they wouldn't suddenly become Ronaldinho.

Unfortunately, it doesn't occur in practice much. Only a handfull of players come to mind when I think of players who are a pure joy to watch because of their skill PLUS they rarely dive (Wayne Rooney, Steven Gerrard, Michael Essien, Tim Cahill...)

No, but I always enjoy watching D'Archville play as I always enjoyed Jorge Costas or Juninho of Lyon. They play(ed) hard rarely dive and have skills.

What we don't want is a starting 11 of Christiano's who wimper and whine and flop around looking for a foul.

How many times did we see Beckenbauer doing a river dance over the ball and then rolling around when somebody got close.

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