Foreign Support in canada: Percep'n vs reality

[El Hombre]

quote:Originally posted by Sigma

What if you moved to a foreign country? Would you cheer for Canada if they were playing against your new home?

I think that's the important question. All things being equal and I moved today, I'd still be a Canada fan. If I stayed in my new destination and got citizenship, I'd still be a Canada fan although I may start following the local national side a little bit more. However, if I then had kids and we all remained in our new country, I would not force my fandom on them. They can decide for themselves where their allegiances lie.

I've thought about this a lot lately, and it's not the new immigrants that bother me, as I would act the same way if I was in their shoes having grown up in a different country. The ones that bother me are the 2nd, 3rd, 4th... generation Canadians that only have Brazil, Ireland or England jerseys. They're the ones that get me wound up.

[sirio]

Right on pulsar!!!My case: Born in Rome, but raised in Ottawa..but you know what? When I used to play soccer (Lodigiani and Fermana youth sistem..) I would have easly chose Canada for the national team...Why? Because the first time I played soccer was in Canada!!What the hell!!It's a thing about being grateful!!Even if I feel 101% Italian...

[)]GO OTTAWA CANTERBURY GO!!![)]

[pulsar]

quote:Originally posted by El Hombre

I think that's the important question. All things being equal and I moved today, I'd still be a Canada fan. If I stayed in my new destination and got citizenship, I'd still be a Canada fan although I may start following the local national side a little bit more. However, if I then had kids and we all remained in our new country, I would not force my fandom on them. They can decide for themselves where their allegiances lie.

I've thought about this a lot lately, and it's not the new immigrants that bother me, as I would act the same way if I was in their shoes having grown up in a different country. The ones that bother me are the 2nd, 3rd, 4th... generation Canadians that only have Brazil, Ireland or England jerseys. They're the ones that get me wound up.

My parents, being off the boat (however my mother was raised in Alberta) had tears of joy when the Italians won the world cup. But what made me proud was when she said why can't Canada make the world cup. I am a massive Italy (Juve - sorry Sirio) fan. But if it came right down to a Italy / Canada match..i would don the red and white...But El hombre, I agree with you...If I moved to Italy i would still be a Canada fan. Should i have kids born and live there, I would expect them to be Italian, bleed blue but support the Canucks.

[pulsar]

I should ad, that we just have to keep doing what we are doing via forums like this. This is what gets the ball rolling and opens eyes. Letters to politicians and media that have been written by some of the Voyaguer veterans is what keeps the ball rolling. What we talk about will spread and there will be more canadian fans to games..we just have to keep going and spread the word.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

In September it will be my 20th anniversary in Barcelona. I have never said I was "Spanish" or adopted Spanish, and even though I speak Catalan (and write and even publish in it) and many here say "well you are a Catalan now", I tell them I am not. I am not Spanish, and not Catalan, and don't even feel either (except when something happens that connects me to either, like the train bombing in Madrid, a tragedy, or a political situation, like being proud that with only 4% of Spaniards supporting the Iraq war Zapatero pulled Spain out and bore the brunt of the world's conservatives calling him lame). But I am a Barcelonan at all times, my tie is with the city I chose to live in. I even feel proud to be from my neighbourhood, I have neighbourhood pride (quite a typical Spanish thing in fact), for years I have gone to see the neighbourhood team play as well, Poble Sec, even have gone to away games (okay, games played in other parts of Barcelona, as they are in 5th tier and many other sides at that level are in greater Barcelona).

When Canada played Spain in Santander I went, and of course was totally in favour of Canada, but being an underdog you can understand that. I was so keen to see us show well, to impress, and fortunately we did, that was a great moment, watching Radzinski take Sergio Ramos apart, that made me proud.

In other sports I admit it is not quite like that, it usually depends on the sport. Since in other sports I know the Spanish athletes better I often have more sympathy for them, but it depends, so in sports where we have faced Spain I can usually go either way depending on the moment, the competiton, and what is expected of either side. If Canada qualifies for the next world basketball championship and faces Spain, I would probably go for the team that most needed the win, or with the better chances of going further in the competition, or in a knockout round stay pretty neutral.

That said, I am a big fan of Spain and Spanish in sport. Today is the 15th anniversary of the opening of the Barcelona Olympics, and boy has Spain ever grown in world sport in the time I have been here, sometimes it is truly amazing since when I arrived here this country had a major inferiority complex in almost everything related to sports. Now you look at the world class Spanish athletes and you shake your head, the level is fantastic and in so many different types of sport too, tennis, motorsport, track and field, synchro swimming, golf, basketball, waterpolo, handball. Last Sunday, if Sergio Garcia had just made that one putt at the 18th and won the British Open, it would have meant for an extraordinary day for Spanish sport, with Alonso winning in Germany with some very fine driving (and the two other races that day won by Spaniards), Nadal won in Stuttgart, Contador won the mountain stage beating Rasmussen. So I am a big fan of Spanish athletes in sport, made easier with so many great talents out there now.

Apart from soccer and a few others, I only follow the Canadians from afar, I don't often get to see our better performers, and don't really know who many of them are, maybe just the name and a bit of an idea of what they can do. So I feel a certain distance which I guess is logical.

My son can decide what teams he wants to support, his choice. He likes what he sees and the ones that do well, and for him his dad's interest in Canada is something he can't really share. Maybe as he gets older that might change, but I really am not too worried about it.

[bettermirror]

My father was born in Germany. He moved here when he was 8. If you ask him where he is from. He says Germany and very quickly adds, but I am Canadian. When Canada played Germany I could see some torment, but he, along with me, cheered for Canada.

Like someone said above, it isn't necessarily those recent immigrants I have a problem with, it is those 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th generation families who have Canada to thank for everything they have, and everything they will have but still cheer for a country they have never been to, and owe nothing to other than heritage. I am not discounting the importance of heritage, and I'd hate to live in a country devoid of varied cultures, but one must show respect for that which provides for them.

I respect and love Germany and cheer for them ahead of everyone but Canada. And my dad would be very hurt if I did support Germany, so why aren't others like this?

(heck, my fiancee is a Croatian from Bosnia and also lived in Germany until she was 12 between the two countries - she cheers for Canada, but would not cheer for them ahead of her homes - and even though I give her a hard time I have no problem with it. Heck English isn't even her second language, it's third - although she never speaks German!)

[SilverSamurai]

I've been asked who would I cheer for if my parents country (El Salvador) played Canada by my cousins. I told them Canada 100%. It's who I am.

MY 2nd team is Mexico for the WC but if Canada is able to qualify for South Africa, I'm on a plane to support our boys. Sure we'd probably have a small little supporters section, but I'm going to go nuts along with the other crazy canucks and represent.

Hell, during the WCQ games, I'm going to try to go to as many as possible at BMO Field and, go nuts and support our boys.

I'm not even sure if I'm a 1st gen or 2nd gen Canadian (I was born here, but my parents immigrated here).

If I did move, I would support Canada but also my new country. If the 2 played, I'd have a little bias for Canada though.

[Macksam]

I think Bryan Adams is a White Caps fan I'm pretty sure. He also supports Chelsea.

[john tv]

Every time I am among let's say Portugeese,Italians or any other ehtnic group they will never ever say he or she is Canadian it is always English, very strange but so true. Never understood that but there it is. Not Canadian, just English.

I also wonder how many posters have Canadian parents or are 3rd or more generation Canadian.

[SilverSamurai]

quote:Originally posted by john tv

Every time I am among let's say Portugeese,Italians or any other ehtnic group they will never ever say he or she is Canadian it is always English, very strange but so true. Never understood that but there it is. Not Canadian, just English.

I'm the opposite.

I'll say I'm Canadian amoung other Hispanics, but around other Canadians, I'll say I'm Hispanic only if asked. I don't make it a point to stick out though.

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan

Your support of Arsenal is one thing, but for a Canadian to Support the English National Team over the Canadian Team is just baffling to me...

See that's how I feel. I have no problem whatsoever with him inheriting a rabid Arsenal supporting habit (I'm not so rabid but I developed it on my my own) but what is this b#ll$#!t supporting England over Canada? Heck, I am disgusted he won't support the Whitecaps as his home team. I support Arsenal mostly because it makes watching the EPL more interesting. If in some fantasy land Victoria United and Arsenal were to play I know who I would be cheering wholeheartedly and who I would be applauding politely when they buried goal #10 in the back of the net. [8D]

Obviously he is a glory hunter interested in big names rather than a supporter of the people's game. So really, who needs him? Mention his name again on this board and he just gets more publicity. Maybe we can convince him to do a "Conrad Black" since he obviously doesn't consider himself Canadian. []

[Soju]

To be fair he cited family ties as reasons to love the club and that makes sense to me. A father's encouragement goes a long way and runs deep. He's also a lifelong Arsenal supporter in his what 30's? There were better places to glory hunt in that period (and certainly next season). I think the lack of national support comes down to in soccer I'm not Canadian because Canada doesn't have a national team. Oh they do? Oh I didn't know. Too late I'm already in deep but I can at least support both if I'm not a dickhead. I grew up nextdoor to an English family they were England all the way AND Canada (it's not like they ever play against each other). Anyways if there aren't many Canadian supporters so be it eff these pretentious winkers we don't want them.

[JayWay]

quote:Originally posted by bettermirror

Like someone said above, it isn't necessarily those recent immigrants I have a problem with, it is those 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th generation families who have Canada to thank for everything they have, and everything they will have

How true is this, though?

When I read discussions like these, and I listen to other Canadians describe the lot of immigrants, I sometimes get the sense that they are generalizing the immigrant experience and often blurring the lines between those who moved here by choice and refugees.

While every immigrant comes here for a better life, not every new Canadian is escaping famine and hardship.

For example, how many Canadians have high tailed it to the States in pursuit of the better job market and lower taxes? These Canadians would argue they left for a better quality of life, but if their appreciation of their new home was to come relative to the quality of life they left in Canada, I doubt they'd see the United States as any great haven worthy of their eternal gratitude.

I think a lot of us tend to picture the pre-Canada experience of most immigrants as that of wandering a vast and depleted landscape in rags searching for any and all food.

Immigration is a two way street. Canada needs foreign labour just as immigrants need our jobs. A lot of the time, I don't think the difference in need between the two ends is as uneven as many would like to think.

As for Matt Good -- he is a schmuck. He's avoiding the real question (why don't you support Canada) by answering a completely irrelevant one (why do you support England). Not only that, but everytime he writes on the issue, he sounds like he's trying to write his own version of Fever Pitch, touching on sentimental childhood memories, like we're all supposed to fawn over his quirky and touching stories of father-son allegiances and day trips to the pub with papa, forgetting in all this that he's still a Euro-snob dick head.

The worst was when he asked us to consider, just for a moment, how difficult it must be for him, being an England supporter and all. Awww. Poor baby. With his replica England Wayne Rooney kit, and a plethora of media coverage and live to air friendlies with Macedonia at his fingertips. I wish my team got a fraction of that kind of coverage or merchandise distribution here in Canada. My team being Canada.

[Niagara Hammer]

In my house, I am a multi generation Canadian (I think I said 7th in a previous post, It is actually 6th, My Wife was born in England That makes my children first or 7th, and all points in between), IT IS ALWAYS CANADA FIRST, for everything. It is the second choice once Canada is eliminated that things can change. Often I will cheer for the under dog because it is fun. (I am a ti-cat fan after all)

It goes somthing like this

Soccer, England, Scotland (Father in law is a Glaswegian), or the underdog

Rugby, The All Blacks for me and Wallabies for the wife.

Hockey, never the USA,

Cricket, the Aussies

F1, Never Ferrari.

The list could go on, but I wont.

[redhat]

Matthew Good is entitled to his opinion no matter how stupid it sounds or appear to be.

He doesn't understand what's possible in Canada: being a Canadian means you can support

your HOME team and ETHNIC team. You can do both, as long as you shouldn't disrespect OUR

COUNTRY. There are a lot of players on the MNT with several "nationalities" (if you will),

but still represent Canada. They may cheer for Italy during the World Cup if they're of

Italian heritage, but they would never disrespect Canada and our MNT.

It'll be nice when the day comes when ordinary Canadians would respect our MNT for their

success and sacrifice representing our country.

Maybe the Voyageur motto should be "Canada First". Subtle, understated, but clear in our

support.

[SilverSamurai]

If you asked Good, who he'd support for hockey, do you think he'd still say England? lol

I'm bring my my Canada jersey over with me to Spain when I go on exchange

Have to maximize our exposure!

[SilverSamurai]

If you asked Good, who he'd support for hockey, do you think he'd still say England? lol

I'm bring my my Canada jersey over with me to Spain when I go on exchange

Have to maximize our exposure!

[putkaputka]

I don’t understand the resentment against these so-called “2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. gen. immigrants” who do not support Canadian soccer or who cheer against the national team.

I think JayWay is correct in that the posts here seem to lump “immigrants” together and also betray hints of stereotyping.

Why does anyone have to cheer for Canadian soccer? People in Canada, no matter their status, are free to cheer for whomever they want in a sporting competition.

It is not like these people are “cheering” against the Canadian troops and waving an Iraqi or Afghani flags every time a Canadian soldier is killed, although it should be noted flag-burning, etc. prolly is legal under our Constitution. We should look at the US that has seen epic schisms between White and Black, North-South, Democrat-Republican, Anti-War, hippies, etc. that severely test national bonds every day; looking at someone complaining that people don’t cheer for a ****ty and mismanaged Canadian soccer program shows insecurity.

The most vocal “anti-Canadians” who seem to rile up posters here are a minority of insecure “ethnic,” for lack of better word, teenagers and young adults living in English-speaking Canada who look towards some rebellious experience and seek a sense of community.

These people do not have a political party to cheer for, they do not have a “cause” to cheer for, they do not have a “fight”, they in fact have nothing to really rebel against. So what if they see cheering for their parents’ country and against Canada giving them a little extra jolt and a bad-ass attitute. So be it.

They will still wake up the next morning and go to work and pay their taxes. Everyone knows that they are not ‘real’ fans and their support counts for nothing “back home,” where they will always be foreigners. “ Back home, of course, everyone cheers for club first, country second to begin with. Our Canadian fans are, in the grand scheme of things, nothing more than your run of the mill Asian fan decked in the latest Euro club kit, with the exception that the market here is not that well developed.

The problem in Canada is not these ‘anti-Canadains”, but the cheesy commercialization and soccer-mother-ialization of the sport which ensures that soccer is always relegated to second place behind the NA-controlled sports and we never produce quality players.

[Soju]

You do see this situation commonly in Asia. I've met a lot of people who say they hate their national teams and support Argentina or England or whoever and don't have any connection there (at least the people doing it in Canada have some blood ties). Whenever their national team starts playing well they get behind them straight away like they were always there. This will happen when Canada starts achieving more on the world stage. These people used to really piss me off but they're not serious supporters so we shouldn't take anything they say seriously. They're just talking ****.

[bingham]

The best thread EVER!!!

To me, the great Canadian debate, we are the greatest Nation and this thread says it all!! Now lets make the next World Cup, Dale Mitchell or not.

[Desigol]

Chicken and Egg situation IMO.

When Canada gets some success then more will support Canada.

USA had the same problems untill recently.

[john tv]

Does not hurt to be of Dutch background and love soccer as well. The very best of two worlds. And if Canada could do the same in soccer as Holland I will be laughing all the way to the bank.That's what i am striving for.

I came to Canada in 1960 and in fact at that time they paid Dutch immigrants to go over while the flight was paid for as well.

I believe I received around $60 or so dollars upon my arrival.

It is funny I sort of wondered at times if they were to meet in a competition and never really sort of found an answer till David Edgar scored against Van Der Sar, that's when I was really very very happy. So I guess an answer.

I am not one of those real flag wavers or singers and although I would love to see that Dutch atmospheer I don't participate in it.

I do feel very funny and often wonder when Canada plays against another country and see all these other flags or shirts. Kind of bugs me and even more when i hear that Canadian accent as well.

Never understood that,but than again there it is. It will all go away.In the long run I believe and correct me if I am wrong very few Europeans come to Canada and i guess in the long run we will see the majority being Chineese. i really don't know how that will develop. I suspect they will be a little less pro chineese than the others. I really don't know.But these are all the facts of life and the nature of the beast as well.The only time the Dutch played against Canada was in Varsity stadium and I had a lot to do with that.It was real fun and I took it as a training match for the Dutch and that was all.I don't even remember the score and I also know that everybody had a good and cheerfull time. The fans were not against the Canadian team they just cheered the Dutch on with great fun and i know that the Canadian guys did not mind this at all. It was a great sending away party for the world cup.

I do know that several Canadian players thought this was one of the finest matches they ever played.

I also remember when the National anthems were played I organized for the singer,a very beatyfull black girl and a song festival winner. Well she really jazzed it up and when she finished singing Craig Forrest ran over to her and gave her a big kiss, much to my relief.

On the Dutch side ,for the very first time in Dutch soccer history a single singer sang the anthem.Never seen before and I have never seen it again.Was a great hit in Holland as well.

I had no complains from the Dutch management at all.