Free kick Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 Before this U20 WC, if you would have asked me what would make the hair on your back stand up more: sitting in stadium supporting Canada amongst a large crowd of Argentinians supporters or sitting in stadium supporting Canada amongst, for example, a large crowd of Chilean supporters? the answer for most would very like have been the former. But I now realize that, the likely reason we think that way this is because most of what we know about the game in Canada, is filtered through to us ( directly or indirectly) from the British. A people who have been to war against the Argentina in only the last quarter century and whose national sides ( in this case England) have been dealt some crushing blows on the pitch by Argentina. It became pretty obvious to me that being in and walking around the stadium in that canada versus Chile game was a much different experience compared any other that I had witnessed. That was the first time that I have experienced a group that appeared to me to be so detached from canada, so " in your face" in their support and who were actually really routing against Canada. We heard of some incidents, but its very surprising that theren't more. Whereas, for the most part, the other groups were mostly Canadians wearing a foreign jersey. I could see many of them wearing a canada jersey if it were actually cool to do so. Unlike the chileans, the people in Argentinian jersey ( at yesterdays game and the May friendly againsy Canada) could be overheard speaking a perfect unaccented english and would not stand out as non native anywhere in Canada. Yes, fairly knowledgeable about the game, but they were quiet until the goals were scored and they had maybe one chant they tried and, even it, was botched and unorganzied. But, some how I doubt that the atmosphere in Buenos Aires is like that. Then you look at "pepper spay gate". I doubt that you'll ever hear about this kind of incident with other sides. Furthermore, I'll bet, that should itever occur again, it would play out differently in Canada and abroad if it were a different side involved. In regards to the diving and play acting, would someone like Craig Forrest feel the same if, instead of being David Beckham thats gets sent off in a 98 WC game against Arg, it was Zidane ( or any non Brit) who suffered the same fate as beckham? As far as on the home from, I heard a good explanation for this morning. Argentinian ( Actually an accented one) explained to me that Argentinians, unlike Chileans, are in canada by choice. Whereas many Chileans are canada because of Pinochet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bingham Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 Originally posted by Free kick [ But I now realize that, the likely reason we think that way this is because most of what we know about the game in Canada, is filtered through to us ( directly or indirectly) from the British. A people who have been to war against the Argentina in only the last quarter century and whose national sides ( in this case England) have been dealt some crushing blows on the pitch by Argentina. History: England v Argentina First game 9th May 1951 Last game 12 Nov 2005 Games Played 14 Wins England 6 Argentina 2 Draws: 6 Goals England 21 Argentina 15 Of these 4 were World Cup matches 2 wins each "Crushing blows"????? About even I think Nice theory though, but that's all it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NPE Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 "As far as on the home from, I heard a good explanation for this morning. Argentinian ( Actually an accented one) explained to me that Argentinians, unlike Chileans, are in canada by choice. Whereas many Chileans are canada because of Pinochet." Chile now seems to have a relatively good political situation and have one of the stronger economies in SA. So there must be something worth while here in Canada for them to stay! With time their children/grandchild may be Canadian fans, it there is steady progress in Canadian soccer/football Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bingham Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 I agree. It still boils down to basically one thing. If Canada has a decent team the support will be there. The "generations" issue is also a factor in developing support, but not as much as the long term on-field success of the National team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkton Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 england v argentina is intense the falklands war + the hand of god(maradonas blatant handball)+alf ramsey calling them animals after the game in 66 ask any england fan who their rivals are(except man utd fans who shout argentina at their games to wind up other fans)will say argentina/germany and scotland any of these teams play englandif you cant get a ticket to the game and watch it in a bar in england you can cut the hatred with a knife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSamurai Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 quote:Originally posted by NPE "As far as on the home from, I heard a good explanation for this morning. Argentinian ( Actually an accented one) explained to me that Argentinians, unlike Chileans, are in canada by choice. Whereas many Chileans are canada because of Pinochet." Chile now seems to have a relatively good political situation and have one of the stronger economies in SA. So there must be something worth while here in Canada for them to stay! With time their children/grandchild may be Canadian fans, it there is steady progress in Canadian soccer/football It's partially true. I know my parents didn't really come here by choice, but know that they are waay better off. They came in the early 80's to flee Central American wars. But they also don't bash Canada. They are very thankful to be here. As for me, I've been raised Canadian in a Hispanic household. If anyone asks me where I'm from I say Canada. I can't identify with my parents country (El Salvador) and really don't care much. Even IF they were the best sporting nation in the world I wouldn't sell out my country and be a bandwagon fan. This is where I'm from. This is where I was born, this is where I was raised. This often gets me into arguements with other Hispanics. I don't see how they can think they're from another country when a) they weren't even born there and haven't lived there the majority of their lives. But that doesn't mean I'm not able to sympathize on certain subjects, even though I usually don't agree. Anyways, if I have a kid, he's going to grow up supporting Canada. Will grow up to represent the Red and White. But will also learn about Hispanic culture and language. But 1st loyalty is to Canada. My 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pulsar Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 I always find it funny that amongst my Italian friends (I am of Italian parentage....is that a word?) they always say they are Italian...even though they were born here. " What are you when you go to Italy?", I say..."I am Canadian", they say. That is soooooo effed up. We are Canadian. I am off to Italy for 6 months to a year...but i'll be damned if I will say i am Italian. SilverSamurai....god bless you and the others that think like us..it's a shame that more children of immigrants don't share these feelings. My blood runs red for a reason!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSamurai Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 quote:Originally posted by pulsar I always find it funny that amongst my Italian friends (I am of Italian parentage....is that a word?) they always say they are Italian...even though they were born here. " What are you when you go to Italy?", I say..."I am Canadian", they say. That is soooooo effed up. We are Canadian. I am off to Italy for 6 months to a year...but i'll be damned if I will say i am Italian. SilverSamurai....god bless you and the others that think like us..it's a shame that more children of immigrants don't share these feelings. My blood runs red for a reason!!! I find the same thing strange. My blood runs red and white. [] Even my 1/2 Hispanic/Canadian friends say I'm more Canadian then them. And I tell them it's because I don't try to be something I'm not. I'm Canadian end of story. I'm proud of it. But when it comes to my ethnicity, I'm Hispanic. But my nationality is Canadian. Nothing else. I know what it means to be seen as an outsider by your own "people". I can't identify with them in my case so me they're the foreigners! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maccaliam Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 quote:Originally posted by yorkton england v argentina is intense the falklands war + the hand of god(maradonas blatant handball)+alf ramsey calling them animals after the game in 66 ask any england fan who their rivals are(except man utd fans who shout argentina at their games to wind up other fans)will say argentina/germany and scotland any of these teams play englandif you cant get a ticket to the game and watch it in a bar in england you can cut the hatred with a knife I'd add the french to that list and remove the Scots. Most of the English dont care about the scots really bc they arent good enough to challenege them. To the scots though, England are definitely their big rival. I hate to admit it but it is similar to us and the states. They probably dont consider us their biggest rival... the mexicans get that title, though hopefully that will change soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 Interesting discussion. Grew up playing footie with other Canadians, mentored by immigrant Scots (and later Irish), but spent much of my teens playing with Chileans, some of whom spoke virtually no english. But I feel confident saying that to a man they counted themselves Canadians. And these fellows were 100% part of the "Pinochet" migration. Guarentee you they weren't amongst those cheering against Canada. Doesn't mean they weren't cheering Chile during these U20s, but certainly not against Canada. Maybe my generation of Chilean counter-parts tried harder to adopt their new Canadian world. Don't know. But I'm very confident of where their allegences lay. At the other end of the spectrum I can honestly say I don't think any of my Scottish mentors would call themselves Canadian. And some of them had been longer in Canada than Scotland! Can quite clearly see them cheering against Canada had we played Scotland. This is just a personal experience. Not slagging one group or another. Football in Winnipeg has been well served by a very, very, wide variety of Canadians who identify with an "ethnic" community and I'm sure this will continue to be so in the for-seeable future. P.S. Just to address the "Chilean factor" again, we ran into a few groups of Chileans in Edmonton's hotels and I was under a strong impression that these were SA visitors accompanied by their Canadian cousins. Perhaps using the U20s to have a nice winter holiday and visit the relatives Up North. Almost touristy. Not unlike what me and Wee Elf do. Get some footie in, see the local sights. In another location we'd have called on relatives to. Would certainly explain the "detachment" part of your observations, Free Kick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soju Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 I completely agree with SilverSamurai and echo his sentiments. Grow up in Canada, parents are from another place. Learn about the other place, but you are Canadian. Isn't that what normal people do? These people clinging to the place their parents are from are looking for a convenient sense of identity or something that makes them special. I'm almost certain more of this goes on in Canada than anywhere else. Our culture is so tolerant of this crap. I mean tolerance is a good thing but if you're man enough to get drunk and cheer you hate Canada then be man enough to go the great "home" and tough it out there. One day Canada will stop being just a place and start being a nation for more people. I guess it'll take more time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redhat Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 Interesting discussion. I can only echo what Christina Stalteri wrote the papers a few years ago. She suggests that people enjoy your ethnicity, but do not disrespect your country. She was referring to Portuguese fans during Euro 2004, where they were cheering for Portugal, and yet saying unflattering things about Canadian soccer. A similar issue has occurred with most of the Chilean fans during the U20s. Affinity with "back home" is still pretty strong and will support their team. I do however think that's because most are NOT familiar with our national teams. A guy I know has a German background and during anything soccer will always side with Germany. He however cannot name 5 Bundesliga teams other than Bayern Munich, nor can he name five current German players. The Portuguese fans I know cannot name 2 Canadian players other than Craig Forrest, and are surprised to learn that we have players with Tottenham or Deportivo. Not that they care, because they only care about ManU, Chelsea, Benfica, Real Madrid, Porto, Barcelona, or Milan in the first place. I wasn't born here (immigrated at 12 years of age), but I am a Canadian and would only identify myself as such. If you want Canadians to support Canadian soccer, there has to be more of an effort to get kids and adults to identify with Canadian soccer through marketing our current players and teams. It starts with a winning attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 quote:Originally posted by SilverSamurai Anyways, if I have a kid, he's going to grow up supporting Canada. Will grow up to represent the Red and White. But will also learn about Hispanic culture and language. But 1st loyalty is to Canada. Dude, you just made my morning! For every whiner making excuses I like to think there a a dozen like you who make me proud to be a Canadian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john tv Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 It's funny my son was born and raised in Canada and he is aware of my background but that is it. He is as Canadian as you can get and loves football, basketball and hockey.He played soccer up to the age of 16 discovered girls and started to work out.I believe he is proud to be of Dutch backgfround but that is it. In fact we have never even discussed this or even made it an issue or an expectation. I guess he also knows how much i am involved in soccer in Canada anyway. This seems to be the general attitude among children of Dutch immegrants,they are very very Canadian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSamurai Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 quote:Originally posted by ted Dude, you just made my morning! For every whiner making excuses I like to think there a a dozen like you who make me proud to be a Canadian. Just being honest.Although I have a Mexican friend and she asked what if I married a Mexican? What then. I for one would want him to grow up here but also learn Spanish and such. Hopefully when and if it comes time to choose, he'll pick Canada and not be a sellout. I also don't see why anyone has to choose. I hate it when people make me choose, but I have no problem in "choosing" Canada. It's what I am afterall. But I also don't try to be different and tell people "hey look at me I'm Hispanic!" I grew up being the only one so perhaps that had something to do with it? Regardless, when I met others (Hispanics) in high school I quickly realized that I was nothing like them and that I was in fact Canadian. They saw me as an outsider (for being born here) and I as them, because they were intolerant of how good they had it here. On more then one occasion I've gotten into debates of if they think "X" is so good, then go back! Even in university now, I hear people complain about "not enough minorities here" or "why don't all the people from "x" background get together". Honestly who cares?! We're all people in the end. Stop trying to stand out. I'm not saying give up your culture and be a drone, but stop making something out of nothing. I wouldn't say I'm "proud" but I also don't hide it if I'm asked. Another friend of mine "whose of mixed descent" also agrees with me and she also says people ask her where she's from and such. She also thinks people should be more greatful that we have it so good here. If anything I'm a proud Canadian and will continue to do so when I go on exchange to Spain (I HOPE) in January. But hey, I'm just one person! (Well 2 if you count her) [|)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrennanFan Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 quote:Originally posted by ted Dude, you just made my morning! For every whiner making excuses I like to think there a a dozen like you who make me proud to be a Canadian. For every SilverSamurai there is a Matthew Good. Matthew Good, born and raised in Burnaby BC, Canadian musician (and I use that term loosely) and die hard football fan. But guess where his allegiance lies. I emailed him once asking him about why he doesn't like Canadian soccer, whether he knew about our players, and what his thoughts were on Hargreaves. His reply: quote: I'm addressing this in an entry actually. Personally, I think your forum, which I found in my incoming links, has no right to attack others on their allegiances. I have been an Arsenal supported since birth, I have seen the Gunners play 12 times, I have every kit top from 1978 to 2004, and even the FA Cup top from 1971. I have stood in the same place on the North Bank that my father stood as a boy of 9 in the mid 40's to watch his favourite club play (my dad signed forms with spurs by the way before blowing out his knee). My best friend's father also coached the Canadian nation side in his day, Ray Bruno. He just passed away, did you guys at all mention that? No, I do not follow Canadian football, nor do I support Vancouver's side. I have spent my entire life supporting one side religiously, I am listed on their booster page, have been invited by one of their players in the past to tour the old grounds and the dressing rooms, and have keepsakes that date back to the 30's. Do you question Gord Downie's passionate support for the Boston Bruins, they being an American hockey team? I grew up supporting English football, it's in my blood. I played the sport my entire life until my late teens, went to high school with players that have played for Canada, and come from the exact same place as Craig Forrest. But that has never altered my love of the English game above all others. That said, you can support whomever you like, that's your business. Not sure he got the point of my email so i tried again: "Ok, you like Arsenal, I get it. Guess what, I like Newcastle. What I'm trying to get at, Matt, is why you do not ALSO support or have any interest the Canadian National Team who will be starting World Cup Qualifying next year. Your support of Arsenal is one thing, but for a Canadian to Support the English National Team over the Canadian Team is just baffling to me..." His response: quote:Sorry, I'm a Lions supporter, and am also a dual citizen like the man you so easily slag off because he chose to play for England... What a Douchebag, but some people are just like that. Canadian soccer is not for everyody and i'm happy about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macksam Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 The Lions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadasBest Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Macksam The Lions? England. Anyways. I think before attacking people on a personal front regarding their allegiances we should invite people to come join us at the next Canadian game in our sector. Heck if Matthew Good accepts an invite from us to join USector/Voyageurs for the Costa Rica game in Toronto I will listen to one of his entire CD's from front to back without hitting the stop button. (Something I have been unable to do yet) Anyways I guarantee he'd have a fun time. Personally, I am actually fairly optimistic and hopeful regarding the future of soccer in Canada from an Allegiance stand point. Over the past few years I have noticed an increase in Canadian Patriotism here on the West Coast. My dad and I were talking about this very subject on the way to Edmonton. In Vancouver/Victoria especially around Canada Day I was pleasently surprised to see the number of ethnically diverse individuals so proud to be a part of Canada. My hotel here was full of young people over the Canada Day Long Weekend, something that has not occured in previous years. In that sense I am happy to see this increase of Canadian Patriotism and I hope in future it can benifit Canada both in terms of Player Selections, and increased numbers of Pro-Canadian Fans. We definitely need more Voyageurs for one. At the Congo Match we had great success in getting people to notice our group and join in to get a pro-Canadian crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSamurai Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 We're a young nation in a sense. It will come with time. I'll be old and wrinkly, but it will come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macksam Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 quote:Originally posted by gwallace76 England. Oh England sucks anyhow. As for Matt Good, he hasn't been good since he dismantled The Matthew Goodband. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcaout Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 I've been reflecting a lot on nationality, identity, and what it means to people recently so I had to post on this topic. Since I'm totally confussed as to right/wrong, should/shouldn't oppinions right now I can neither offer a defense of or point of view on what has been said above. I can only offer my experience. I'm a British mut or some kind, possibly Norman, or Pict afew centuries back, maybe out of Africa bi-ped a few more. I don't really look back. Yes I've grown up with loads of British/Western/Christian cultural norms, clothing, food, morality, etc... so its relevent. But there is only one Geographical place name on my passport (maybe two Sask? haven't looked at it in awhile) and that's Canada. I like American movies, Japanese TV shows, Jamaican food, Icelandic music, and French Soccer. So in lots of ways big abstract notions of Canadian Culture seem distant or unrepresentitive. Yet, I support Canada, and would like nothing more to have a local side to get behind rather then focus on European leagues. So for me it's very complex. I moved away I still would cheer for Canada first, so how can I blame other immigrants who've moved here? I would have a few years ago, but now everything is more uncertain. So for now all I can say is I am Canadian...whatever that means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macksam Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 quote:Originally posted by mcaout I've been reflecting a lot on nationality, identity, and what it means to people recently so I had to post on this topic. Since I'm totally confussed as to right/wrong, should/shouldn't oppinions right now I can neither offer a defense of or point of view on what has been said above. I can only offer my experience. I'm a British mut or some kind, possibly Norman, or Pict afew centuries back, maybe out of Africa bi-ped a few more. I don't really look back. Yes I've grown up with loads of British/Western/Christian cultural norms, clothing, food, morality, etc... so its relevent. But there is only one Geographical place name on my passport (maybe two Sask? haven't looked at it in awhile) and that's Canada. I like American movies, Japanese TV shows, Jamaican food, Icelandic music, and French Soccer. So in lots of ways big abstract notions of Canadian Culture seem distant or unrepresentitive. Yet, I support Canada, and would like nothing more to have a local side to get behind rather then focus on European leagues. So for me it's very complex. I moved away I still would cheer for Canada first, so how can I blame other immigrants who've moved here? I would have a few years ago, but now everything is more uncertain. So for now all I can say is I am Canadian...whatever that means. Yeah, except for the fact that Canadians hardly move away except maybe to some tropical place for retirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Well, not entirely true. Have lost good friends to Australia, USA, France and England. To other part of Canada too, but as many have struck out overseas as have to provincial migration. I should mention also that my friends are almost strickly blue collar, if you follow. Wouldn't think they fit into the typical Voyageur "higher education" mold. Been years but I still miss some of them. Booo...This topic is making me depressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maccaliam Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 His response: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry, I'm a Lions supporter, and am also a dual citizen like the man you so easily slag off because he chose to play for England... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm also a dual citizen and hope for Canada and each of my parents nationalities to do well... but to be fair, you can't take anything Mr. Good says very seriously considering he doesn't even know it is the THREE lions, not just the lions... if he truly has been supporting them all his life with such passion, he would know better. An ass who supports the arse. No surprise there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSamurai Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 quote:Originally posted by maccaliam His response: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry, I'm a Lions supporter, and am also a dual citizen like the man you so easily slag off because he chose to play for England... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm also a dual citizen and hope for Canada and each of my parents nationalities to do well... but to be fair, you can't take anything Mr. Good says very seriously considering he doesn't even know it is the THREE lions, not just the lions... if he truly has been supporting them all his life with such passion, he would know better. An ass who supports the arse. No surprise there. Doesn't really answer the question either. Perhaps he's thinking of being a politician in the future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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