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Fire Dale Mitchell's a$$


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quote:Originally posted by rodfern2007

In response to your statements Gian Luca, first off, I never suggested that we ban the current U20 team players from the senior team.

No, I know you didn't. I was comparing your suggestion that we forsake World Cup Qualifying for 2010 in favour of playing in the 2009 Gold Cup (which we most likely will play in without having to qualify, whether we are a host team or not) to that suggestion. I find both to be absurd. Sorry.

quote:

Back in 2000 when Canada won the Gold Cup, all the pundits in Canada assumed that this would be a prelude to qualifying for Japan/Korea 2002, which of course did not happen.

Yes, but compare how the 2000 team played in comparison to the 2007 Gold Cup team. It's not just the results that have cause for optimism, but the way they are achieved.

I'm sure Mitchell will have some ideas of his own, but given that he plays a 4-5-1 with the youth team (as Hart did with the senior) & is advocating for a more possession style soccer than he feels we could play with the youth team, akin to what Hart has done with senior team, I'll be surprised if we see too much of a change. I think the big question is going to be to what extent the personnel changes.

If we see the team regress under Mitchell then I'm sure there will be many calls for us to go with Hart as head coach, but I'm going to wait to see what happens first.

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Gian-Luca is right. Even if we didn't win the 2007 Gold Cup, the team we have now is way better than the team that actually won the Gold Cup in 2000. In all honesty, we should hammer teams like Trinadad, Jamaica, Honduras, Guatamala and even Cost Rica on a regular basis. This is a must. No excuses.

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My goodness. Do you remember a couple weeks ago when we were all falling over eachother talking about how good the MNT team played at the Gold Cup? That was some of the finest soccer I've ever seen a Canadian team play.

And now because the u20 team has had 3 poor games, the MNT is suddenly going to collapse and all hope is lost?

Get a healthy dose of reality. The future is still very bright.

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Avro...the future is always bright....3 bad games on the worlds biggest stage? I say there are problems..we have world class players but barely a world class team(s). Maybe this should be in the u20 section but there is a definite gap that needs to be closed between the u20s and MNT. With all respect to the hearts of everyone of our players and coaches, training and timing was WRONG, WRONG, WRONG for this tournament. We should have peaked here..instead it was the opposite. Now i am not a trainer or health nut or even a techinician...really am just an opiniated, unemployed actor with too much time on his hands, but we were exposed and busted....time to get to work and take it seriously. Let's make our world class players gel on a world class team. I think Jeffery S had it right....lets just start with the basics.

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the CSA did not want to lose another one to another MLS club

It was all in the master plan the u-20 debacle was to make sure that is no suitor will be going after their top gun.

now he is CSA tied.

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I was not pleased with Mitchell, but I am still willing to let him have his chance with the senior team. Of all the negative points in this topic about the team and especially Mitchell, I don't think I've seen one post about our complete lack of skill level compared to the other teams in this tourney, which in my opinion, was the main factor in us going 0-3 and not scoring. We had 3 or 4 key guys that could of played on most teams in this tourney, but they were scouted well, and completely shutdown. I honestly don't think the rest of our starters would of made any other roster besides maybe New Zealand or Jordan, those players were clearly in over their head in this tournament. Was it the fault of the Mitchell and those others that picked the team?, I really don't know, but I doubt it as I don't think we have too many better options out there. You can put some blame on the coach, but at some point we have to start looking at how we develop players from a young age. Our U17 team seems to never even be able to qualify for the U17 World Cup so that's got to tell us something.

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First off, I may have been overly upset when I vented my displeasure with performance of the U20 team. I can appreciate that the boys gave a good effort on Sunday and deserved better than a 2-0 defeat but this isn't grade school and we don't give A's for effort in pro or national level soccer. This is a results oriented business, just like everything else in the real world. Our U20 team, from coach down to players, simply stunk in this tournament, especially in the first two games. In the world I live in, successful organizations don't reward failing. This is why the coach, rightly or wrongly, must be thrown under bus. I don't care how many ways the apologists on this board try to spin it, the truth is the truth. Abject Failure deserves nothing more than outright dismissal. If Mitchell goes, then at least everyone involved in the MNT program knows that there are consequences to being the worst team in a global tournament. Hell, the New Zealand team had very little quality but they tried hard and gave far better sides a hard time in each and every game. Our team didn't do it until their 3rd game.

To respond to Avro's post, how can anyone believe the future of Canadian soccer is "Bright"? We have a bunch of players at the U20 level whose coach doesn't believe were good enough to compete and who looked scared to play in front of a home crowd. These are supposed to be our best and brightest? Plus, the MNT is going to be coached by the same loser who couldn't even manage to get a bloody tie in the easiest group at he U20 WC. I will be happy to be wrong but I'm not going to get my hopes up.

The reality is that our immediate future (the next 1-3 years) is looking decent at the senior level (based on what we say at the GC), and they may be good enough to get a WC spot (no matter of how lousy the coach is), but then again, maybe not. A couple of key injuries in the midfield and we are nothing more than a mid table CONCACAF side.

Our GK pool is average at best, our pool of defenders is also average but there is minimal depth and our pool of forwards are average at best (maybe a bit below average). The only area where we have above average/very good talent and where we enjoy a bit of depth is in the midfield, which is great because that is where games are won or lost.

Realistically, where is the next generation of talent that will graduate to the Senior team level in 4-5 years? I am not foolish enough to believe that you can close the book on the future potential of any of the U20 players when they are just 18, 19 or 20 years old but that group of players was unbelievably unimpressive. Short Term, the only guys I see moving up are Edgar and maybe Begovic.

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quote:Originally posted by VPjr

Realistically, where is the next generation of talent that will graduate to the Senior team level in 4-5 years? I am not foolish enough to believe that you can close the book on the future potential of any of the U20 players when they are just 18, 19 or 20 years old but that group of players was unbelievably unimpressive.

I can recall people saying the same thing in 2001 about those players when we last went 3 & out without scoring a goal in this tourney. A lot of the players on that 2001 team (De Guzman, Hume, Hutchinson, Friend, Gerba & Pozniak) were members of the 2007 Gold Cup team which you mention as representing a bright near-future for Canada, and two other players on that team (Nsaliwa & Klukowski) would/should also be part of a first-choice roster for Canada over the next few years. We probably created 3 times as many chances against Congo as we did in the entire 2001 tourney.

Only so many players are from each U20 team are going to go on to play regular or semi-regular roles for the National team, I think that's likely the case for many countries' U20 team. The 2001 team turned out to be a bit of a bumper crop, despite an even more dismal performance at the same tourney. If we can get 5 to 6 players off each team in the national team mix, that will put us in good stead. On this team, not counting the really young players who are eligible for the 2009 team, I can see 5 to 6 players moving up the ranks. Not all will join in the next couple of years, but if they contine to develop at their pro clubs, I will be surprised if we don't see them in years to come.

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quote:Originally posted by Natesta

I'm not really a big fan of either Hart or Mitchell, but you can't equate the two's performances. The Gold cup for the MNT is at a much lower level than the U-20 WC would be for the youth.

And remember, Canada under Hart lost to Guadalupe!

The Gold Cup is a much lower level? Tell that to Mexico and quite

a few team that fielded their "A" teams. And so what if Canada lost

to Guadeloupe (which was only 2-1)? Mexico BARELY beat Guadeloupe,

and the Ticos didn't exactly destroy them either.

Likewise, I agree that to get rid of Mitchell is an exercise in

futility. It's really an apples to oranges comparison; Mitchell's

success or failure in the U20s may or may not be an indication

of future results. Similarly, Bora Multinovic's past success with

U.S., Mexico or Costa Rica didn't translate well for China.

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VPjr, I have to agree with Gianluca, I don't think our future down the road is as bleak as you may think. Not everyone from each U20 team will make the senior team as there is basically a new team every 2 years, just a handful of them from each team will move on. Although they didn't look so good in this tourney, you have to figure Edgar, Peters, Johnson and Begovic will be fixtures down the road with continued development in Europe. Canada has never really done that well at the under 17 or under 20 level , where are players seem to get by more on hard work rather then skill and creativity. But it seems like our guys seem to be late bloomers, once they have spent a few seasons developing with teams in Europe (their skill level is able to start catching up) Give some of these guys 5 or 6 years to develop with European teams, and we could have our new Atiba's and Deguzman's hitting their stride in their mid 20's.

As far as the next 10 years, there is plenty of young talent coming up the system. Hume and Atiba are both around 23 or 24, Deguzman can't be much more then 25. Friend is also another fairly young striker and in his mid 20's. Another striker continuing to develop and getting better each year is Occean. There are guys from recent U20 teams that are on the verge of joining the senior team on a full time basis such as Hainault (looks like a keeper after watching him this past year), Josh Simpson, Bernier, Nik Ledgerwood. Then you've got guys who haven't joined the senior team full time yet but show a lot of talent and still pretty young like Nsaliwa, Gerba, Klukowski. I'm probably leaving out some names , but with the large amount of young players we also have playing on reserve and Under 18 teams with European clubs, you have to figure at least a few of those guys will step up at some point as well. Just cause we don't do well at these youth tournaments, doesn't mean we don't have any talent, they just seem to need a little longer to develop.

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quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

despite an even more dismal performance at the same tourney.

how more dismisal can you get with zero point and zero goals scored and playing at home.

The 2001 team earned the rights to be there thru the qualifying process and chk the amount tune up games the 2001 team was given

to prepared for the world cup itself after they had officially qualified for the tournament.

I can tell you without hesitation not even close to the amount of games and training camps Mitchell to prepare his team.

the ratio in term of hrs spent with the team would be in the 100 to 1 ratio gien to Mitchell and his team comapre to the 2001 edition

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quote:Originally posted by sj

how more dismisal can you get with zero point and zero goals scored and playing at home.

Check out the tapes of the 2001 tourney & find out for yourself if you wish to be reminded. Zero points & zero goals at that tourney, fewer chances, more goals given up and no pressure/build up that this team had to face (even if they faced it unsuccessfully)

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still does not add up to this fiasco.

this was billed as being the best ever prepared team in Canadian soccer history and most talented group of players ever assembled together on the same team by Canada at the U-20 level and that came from the CSA themselves while they were promote the virtues of this team.

First ever nation to host the tournamnet and did not score.

I wonder if this a record not only at this level but all the world cup combined and the coach is a striker.

anyway you look at it this is the worse performance ever, crap in our own backward.

that was history in the making.

congrats.

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quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Check out the tapes of the 2001 tourney & find out for yourself if you wish to be reminded. Zero points & zero goals at that tourney, fewer chances, more goals given up and no pressure/build up that this team had to face (even if they faced it unsuccessfully)

But of course, the coach of that particular edition didn't get promoted to the senior Mens National Team job did he?

James wasn't it? Sacked before he even got off the tarmac after the plane landed.

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I may be pesimistic about the prospects for the future (its my nature unfortunately). i truly hope my pesimism is off base because there is nothing more i want than success for our national team programs. it is likely true that our players develop later (mostly because of the poor quality of coaching in Canada). this seems to also be the case in american football...canadians take alot more time to develop into pros vs american players due to poor youth development.

that still leaves us with the issue of Mitchell. do any of you really have any real confidence that he wont stifle the senior team. i have no confidence in him. nor do many commentators and former national teamers (i.e. bob iarusci, bruce wilson and likely many others who dont have the guts to speak publicly).

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quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

But of course, the coach of that particular edition didn't get promoted to the senior Mens National Team job did he?

James wasn't it? Sacked before he even got off the tarmac after the plane landed.

no he coached the U23 team at the Francophone games in Ottawa just after which was more or less the same U-20 team with the addition of Valente and Bernier,

lost to France on penalty kicks in the quarter finals.

was he sacked or did he resign?

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Ah see. Just goes to show you how much importance I attach to the Francophone games.

Was just being dramatic. Think he resigned and accepted a position at a University or something similar. Don't doubt he got the nod and gracious push out the door from his betters though.

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quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

But of course, the coach of that particular edition didn't get promoted to the senior Mens National Team job did he?

Which, if you go back to my previous posts, is totally beside the point. I was responding to the suggestion that none of the kids on this current U20 team will amount to anything positive in the future for our national team. People said the same thing in 2001. They were wrong.

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