Dale Mitchell, I'm starting to worry

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

I beg to differ. A REAL coach determines his players deficiencies quicly and can help coach them out of the players, or direct the player on how to make the improvement themeslves. Players who still can't execute don't play.

In which case, we wouldn't be fielding a team at all this tourney, because nobody has been executing, except for Begovic.

I think Mitchell has determined the players deficiencies, if Simean Jackson can go from terrorizing Argentina's defence to suddenly not being able to cross the ball remotely properly in the tourney, what can any coach do? It's too late to replace him now, the squad is set.

I'm not intending to single out Jackson in particular, just citing him as an example of a player who's play in the same position has not been where it was previously. There have been several players who fit this bill, in fact I'd say it has been the vast majority of the team. Another good example - Will Johnson had shown an ability to strike the ball excellently for the past 3 years that I've see him play for club & country, suddenly in this tourney he can't seem to shoot anywhere close to the net. That's the coach's fault?

Whether that is nerves from the occasion, or European-based players who are playing out of season, or both, it's not something any coach in the world can do anything about at this stage. We can't suddenly dump the squad for a whole selection of new players, even if we had the same depth that Argentina or Brazil do.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

WE MUST STOP GIVING LOSERS SECOND, THIRD AND FOURTH CHANCES!!!!!!

As far as I can see, Mitchell has yet to have a first chance with the senior team, let along a second, third & fourth. If we are going to go with Hart, as many are suggesting, what did his constant failures until the Gold Cup make him? A winner?

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

As far as I can see, Mitchell has yet to have a first chance with the senior team, let along a second, third & fourth. If we are going to go with Hart, as many are suggesting, what did his constant failures until the Gold Cup make him? A winner?

Fair point, but why replicate the same shot-in-the-dark, 'lets hope hes better than he was before' approach to hiring our coaches we used with Hart. Hart was an interim so his prior recoird didnt really have any bearing. He was meant only to be a caretaker. Mitchell was the guy they wanted and he's not a winner, and neither is this team.

At this point, I feel the worst thing that can happen is for Mitchell to take over the Senior team and the senior team qualifies for 2010 on its on merit without much input from Mitchell. Then the CSA will pat itself on the back and NOTHING will change because as far as they are concerned, 'there's no problem since we qualified didnt we?'

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by ken

[

While the U-20 results have been massively disapointing- the disapiontment being about the failure to play a positive game and not so much the results. I'm finding it hard to point to a positive aspect of the games so far, surely in two years the coach should have keyed on something that we can point to and say that there has been pogress. I'm still not ready to throw Michell aside, first of all the senior squad is much different than the U-20's and really we have no idea of what he will so with them. If by next spring the senior team is playing uninspired football then Mitchell will have to go.

I think the reason why we are seeing the long-ball game with Mitchell & the U20's right now is because, quite frankly, we don't have the personnel for a strong midfield. Will Johnson is a striker who is playing as the midfield general because he's the best option we've got, but he isn't really suitable. Jackson is a striker for Rushden & Diamonds, but is playing left-mid here. Peter is a good winger, but not a central midfielder that will control the play, & he is often being double-teamed (sometimes triple) since opposition players see him as our biggest threat to neutralize. Borgeault is a good ball-winner but not a "let me demand the ball" kind of player. Nunez is but just isn't ready yet.

What the Gold Cup showed is that Canada has a midfield that is amongst the best in Concacaf. We can afford to play a possession game at the senior level with the talent we can currently throw out there, whereas I don't think we can with the current U20 team (and we aren't executing well on the style that we are playing). If Mitchell ignores this obvious fact with the senior team and bypasses the midfield in favour of the long ball then I'll probably be more vocal in saying we'd better off with the style we played under Hart. But I am going to wait to see what happens first.

[loyola]

The thing with Hart is that we've never seen (except a few) his teams and U-17 is a lot different than the U-20's.

Mitchell is currently working with a talented group of guys who are playing with pro clubs or their reserves (except 3 NCAA guys). I think it's easier to draw comparaison between a MNT coach and an U-20 even if their is differences.

As for Hart, I think he's done a pretty good job in 10 games. I only thought the Guadeloupe game was badly coached, I think he was fine in the other games I've seen including Hungary and Jamaica in MTL.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm unimpressed with what I've seen from Mitchell with a very good group and I'm worried with him. I think Hart has demonstrate that with some times he can do the job (just look at how we looked after the Venezuela game when we had a few practices) something that Mitchell had plenty with the U-20's....and see what's going on.

I hope I'm wrong because I know that even if we crash in the first round nothing will change with the MNT coach position.

[Canuck Oranje]

My sense is the same as it was in April-May regarding the MNT Coaching position.

Since Mitchell has the position, his performance requirement must be qualification to the 2010 WC. Failure should clearly result in termination. Will it happen? Probably not. But then, that's why Canada's program is not taken seriously outside Canada.

Having said that, it may be that Mitchell only has to convince our best players to show up and then step out of the way to qualify. I guess we will know soon enough

[The Beaver]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

I think the reason why we are seeing the long-ball game with Mitchell & the U20's right now is because, quite frankly, we don't have the personnel for a strong midfield. Will Johnson is a striker who is playing as the midfield general because he's the best option we've got, but he isn't really suitable. Jackson is a striker for Rushden & Diamonds, but is playing left-mid here. Peter is a good winger, but not a central midfielder that will control the play, & he is often being double-teamed (sometimes triple) since opposition players see him as our biggest threat to neutralize. Borgeault is a good ball-winner but not a "let me demand the ball" kind of player. Nunez is but just isn't ready yet.

What the Gold Cup showed is that Canada has a midfield that is amongst the best in Concacaf. We can afford to play a possession game at the senior level with the talent we can currently throw out there, whereas I don't think we can with the current U20 team (and we aren't executing well on the style that we are playing). If Mitchell ignores this obvious fact with the senior team and bypasses the midfield in favour of the long ball then I'll probably be more vocal in saying we'd better off with the style we played under Hart. But I am going to wait to see what happens first.

Not to look like G-L's bitch--again--but his points are spot on and should be considered closely. We are seriously lacking in the midfield with this group, to the point where I half-wondered if it wouldn't be a bad idea to put Edgar in the midfield and let him lead from there. Sure, it takes him out of the back, but with better presence in midfield, maybe he will take some pressure off the back anyways. Like G-L, I think Nunez could become a stellar midfielder, though his pace and fitness are suspect. If he can develop into a solid pro, then he might get there.

Ironic how everyone can rip into Mitchell for his inability to select players or to evaluate them or to employ better tactics on the pitch, but very few here--or on other forums--can do little in terms of offering succint, intelligent evaluation of what is REALLY happening on the field themselves.

[bingham]

On the contrary I think there has been a lot of talk on here about what is happening on the field. Why what do you see as REALLY happening, I'm curious???

[SeanKeay]

Im with the goon on this one...

Its pretty simple when you look at it, If we go 0 and 3 in the world cup after all this prep. There is only 1 person to blame and its Dale, im sorry if you host a world cup and go 0-3 you get fired from the job.

So if he isnt good enough on the u20 level, how can you give him a raise and let him take a team to qualify for the world cup.

The tactics in the past 2 games have been terrible, we have been playing long ball womens soccer. We have been playing afraid and played defencive tactics when the world cup is @ our home.

yesterday playing a 4-5-1, with our tactics of taking it to the wing crossing the ball into the centre isnt going to work when our arial force is sittin on the bench for 80 min. And then when we put him in the game, we totally stop putting the ball to the wings for crosses but then just hoof the ball up to the strong lombardo.

Its just tactically stupid, this whole thing is a mess... the players arnt playing well, the coach has his head up his ass and it just doesnt make sense..

But unless we see the most brilliant display of footie on sunday then i dont wanna see him coach our national team.. (I hope in 2 years when he takes us to the hex i eat my words, i really do.. but i just want to goto south africa and support my nats.. is that to much to ask )

[Danny Boy]

I've read a lot of the posts on this thread and I haven't read anything about Forrest's comments during the game. He said after one of the many wasted opportunities that you can have the best coaches in the world but if your players aren't going to execute you aren't going to win. I think he's right. DM may not be the motivator/general that we want him to be but this is a WC in our home country and if the kids on that pitch can't find the enregy to perform and execute then they have no business in this competition. Hell they even called a players only meeting to get themselves ready. They have to be responsible for their performance too. I'm actually more disapointed in players like Peters, Edgar and Lombardo who are supposedly the experience on the team and IMO they haven't shown the leadership they're supposed to. I'll give Peters a little credit as he did have a strong 2nd half yesterday but it seemed like the rest of the team wasn't following.

[ken]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

I think the reason why we are seeing the long-ball game with Mitchell & the U20's right now is because, quite frankly, we don't have the personnel for a strong midfield. Will Johnson is a striker who is playing as the midfield general because he's the best option we've got, but he isn't really suitable. Jackson is a striker for Rushden & Diamonds, but is playing left-mid here. Peter is a good winger, but not a central midfielder that will control the play, & he is often being double-teamed (sometimes triple) since opposition players see him as our biggest threat to neutralize. Borgeault is a good ball-winner but not a "let me demand the ball" kind of player. Nunez is but just isn't ready yet.

What the Gold Cup showed is that Canada has a midfield that is amongst the best in Concacaf. We can afford to play a possession game at the senior level with the talent we can currently throw out there, whereas I don't think we can with the current U20 team (and we aren't executing well on the style that we are playing). If Mitchell ignores this obvious fact with the senior team and bypasses the midfield in favour of the long ball then I'll probably be more vocal in saying we'd better off with the style we played under Hart. But I am going to wait to see what happens first.

It seems to me that the long ball game is a symptom of a failure of imagination or preparation to deal with the situation where the other team's efforts to disrupt your game plan have been sucessful. What then is your fallback? here it seemed to be to hoof the ball up the field and hope for the best.

If we don't have the best mid field and are forced to play with three strikers in mid positions as they are the best players available why then are we playing a 4-5-1 formation, rather than a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3

that allows mor of our best players to play in their best positions?

The one thing that I don't like to read is that the players had no heart or pride, I look at Johnson and Peters who both regularly came back to positions just in front of the backs to collect the ball, the effort was there, it might not have been a productive use of that effort, but it was there.

[jonovision]

I look at it this way. The U20's had a pretty decent run of results in pre-tournament friendlies and preparation matches against other countries. At the time, our preparation advantage, in terms of coaching and familiarity was significant, since our team had been together a long time while the others were mostly called together for a single match or a 2 or 3 match series.

Now that the tournament has started, most of the other teams have also been together at least a month, and that advantage has shrunk. A lot more comes down to the individual talents, and that is where, in this cycle, we are lacking. In particular, our midfield has lost the battle in each match so far. I disagree with G-L that Johnson is a striker playing out of position in midfield, because he has been a midfielder all season for Heerenveen reserves, but he and Nunez and whoever else has lined up in the middle of the pitch have been poor at ball winning, anticipating play, building the attack, using their wings, etc.

Our MNT is in a rare position (in my time following them) of having a strong midfield and with Hutch and JdG and even DeRo young enough to be around for all of the 2010 WC qualifying cycle and beyond, Dale will move from playing with a weak hand in the most important part of the pitch to a strong one. Stephen Hart didn't all of a sudden become a great coach after bombing with the U17s, and Dale hasn't deteriorated since almost making the semis in 2003. At the youth level, it is about talent and it seems like this time around, we don't really have it.

At the very least, Mitchell should be given a chance before we write him off. Being a youth coach and a men's coach are two entirely different propositions.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Danny Boy

I've read a lot of the posts on this thread and I haven't read anything about Forrest's comments during the game. He said after one of the many wasted opportunities that you can have the best coaches in the world but if your players aren't going to execute you aren't going to win. I think he's right.

Having attended one game & watched the other one in a bar with the sound off, I was unaware what the Forrest commentary has been like, but if that's what he said, then yes, I think he's right to, because that's exactly what I've been saying.

Normally I am the type to blame the coach first before blaming the players when things go disastrously wrong, and I did that in 2001 with Paul James in the 2001 tourney. I find myself not doing that in this sitation, and it's not because I see Dale Mitchell as some sort of messiah, or feel that he hasn't made some mistakes. I think the players can execute better than they have, but even if they do, I am also resigned to the fact that (having seen most of the teams play)most of the teams in this tourney have a greater overall level of skill than our players do. And frankly, if we make a World Cup at the senior level, that's still going to be the case.

[Macksam]

quote:Originally posted by john tv

I contacted Paul Bierne and informed him that I know a very high profile dutch caoch who wanted to come to Canada asap.He has more credentials than even Hiddink and all Paul said is,we don't need a coach. Quite amazing. So forget about it.However it would have been a fantastic move and amazing way to start a TFC youth program under this guys guidance, But I guess Paul is not really fully aware yet the who is who or what yet.

I'm a little confused by what you're saying. Are you saying they had a Dutch coach lined up for the national team or TFC's future youth academy?

[Macksam]

quote:Originally posted by john tv

I contacted Paul Bierne and informed him that I know a very high profile dutch caoch who wanted to come to Canada asap.He has more credentials than even Hiddink and all Paul said is,we don't need a coach. Quite amazing. So forget about it.However it would have been a fantastic move and amazing way to start a TFC youth program under this guys guidance, But I guess Paul is not really fully aware yet the who is who or what yet.

I'm a little confused by what you're saying. Are you saying they had a Dutch coach lined up for the national team or TFC's future youth academy?

[Gian-Luca]

Speaking of Paul James, during the halftime at the Gol TV broadcast of Argentina & NK, he mentioned his belief that the apparent "lack of heart" on Canada's team is actually a lack of confidence, which is my take as well (I termed it nervousness, but the nervousness stems from a lack of confidence, essentially two sides of the same coin). I guess the question is where did it go? Because they were confident to the point of cockiness prior to the tourney. Is it from the pressure they feel as the host nation, coupled with the lack of a "12th man" effect to combat that feeling?

Maybe the chants in the crowd on Sunday should be "Don't be nervous!"

[RJB]

But you know, much like happened in 2003, this Canadian team could win their next game and get into the next round. Then, a favourable tie could get us into the Quarter Finals(didn't we play Bahrain in 2003?). Then, once again, Mitchell will be heralded as a great coach, when he in fact isn't.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by RJB

But you know, much like happened in 2003, this Canadian team could win their next game and get into the next round. Then, a favourable tie could get us into the Quarter Finals(didn't we play Bahrain in 2003?). Then, once again, Mitchell will be heralded as a great coach, when he in fact isn't.

The only thing is that Canada was playing fairly well in the 2003 tourney in the two losses before they won their final game. We went from really poor to better but still not good enough in the second in this tourney. Hopefully there will be quite an upswing for the last match, but its tough to feel too confident about it.

[boban1]

quote:Originally posted by Luis_Rancagua

Guys,

Please try to understand that, through this post, I'm not trying to promote the removal of Dale Mitchell as national coach of the Canadian men's senior world cup team. However, after his $hit performance as coach of the U-20, I'm starting to express serious concerns as to whether he's the right man for the job. Should he be fired or should the fans give him one more chance???

You are starting. I am past that. We're not going anywhere with the Senior MNT. At the upper levels in international coaching he is going to be outwitted. This is being done here and this is even tthe best of all the coaching.

I don't understand all this 'let's give a chance' argument. We need a foreigner as a coach who brings the culture of soccer with him plus the wealth of tactics and strategies that Canadians just don't have. Soryy Mitchell et. all. You're a nice guy, but a national team coach you are not.

[Kye]

I am really worried about Mitchell. I really hope he doesn't touch our senior team.

This is the secound world youth tournament whear Mitchell has made the exact same mistakes over and over again.

1) Tactics and playing players out of position. Mitchell for 2 years has implimented the same tactic and then forced his players to play it and play out of position. Case in point in 2005 I think we had a real fast and talented team. They would have been better off playing a 4-3-3, but instead played a defensive 4-5-1. They left Gyaki all alone up front and kept Legerwood at right back when he has almost exclusily played in the left midfield position. Sure Legerwood can successfuly play at right back, but he would have helped the team more in his natural position. The same can be said about Lombardo and Johsnon on this years team. The team isnt playing a system that accomodates the strengths of its best players. This is poor asset management on Mitchells part. The key to building a team is picking out your best players putting them in there natural spots and sourrounding them with the right players in the right roles with the right tactics. Mitchell has failed to do this.

2) Adaptability. This is 2 years in a row when we have played the exact same system. In 2005 we had a lot of success in qualifying playing this system which is great. however all our opponents saw our success and scouted our system and designed a game plan to counter it. Instead of Mitchell trying to tweak or adapt his system, he plays the exact same system. When the team runs into trouble due to the scouting of other teams, he is unable to change his system. He concentrates on playing one system instead of trying to adapt to his opponents. Like you should play one way against team x but you have to play another way against team y. I have yet to see anything like this from Mitchell.

3)Perhaps maybe the most important reason. Mitchell plays not to lose, he doesnt play to win. Everyone remember game 2 of the 2005 world cup, when we played an absolutly bunker defensive game devoid of any attempt to even try attaking. That was one of the worst games iv ever seen. I have seen enough games the last few years including the first 2 of this tournament. The defensive long ball counter system indicates to me that his game plan is designed not to lose but not to win. His comments before the tournament started also indicated that. He talked about how he hoped to get out of the group stage and then see what would happen. This brings me to my next point, how much confidence does he install in his players with his comments and his system. Instead of coming out and having a positive attitude and say like "This is our turf, were here to show what canada can do and we beleive we are a contender and were gonna look like one etc." he states he jopes to get out of the group phase. I really wonder what he says to the players cause he doesnt seem to be able to motivate them.

In closing I would be fine if we went 0-3 while playing positive soccer and showing faith in his players then playing absolute horrid soccer in which he looks like he has no faith in his players.

Sorry for my long rant

[Macksam]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I imagine Gus Hiddink might have devised a better strategy for us against Chile than Mitchell but I still doubt we would have won this game.

Winning the game would've definately been a possibility with Hiddink. He took PSV to victories over teams three times their skill and quality like AC Milan, Arsenal(this was actually Koemen but it was near identical to Hiddink's style), Lyon etc. Let's hope he eyes Canada after he's done with Russia.

[Cheeta]

quote:Originally posted by jonovision

Over-react much?

I wouldn't say so.

Mitch has had everything his way leading into this tourny. Everything. No Canadian team ever has been given what this squad has in order to prepare to succeed. And this bunch aren't getting it done. Not even close.

But it's not Dale Mitchell's fault?

Some here have mentioned that Mitch isn't the motivater type and he shouldn't have to be. I don't subscribe to that at all. Quite the opposite. Especially outside of club football.

Why have a coach shallow on one of a coachs most import tools? Motivating players to perform to their peek under stress and hostile conditions is everything. Some players need the stress and others wilt under it. Some are motivated out of fear. Others hate, vanity, commitment or the joy of competition. Pick a human condition. It'll fit the motivation mold.

But it's a tool a coach has to have and be master at. And I believe it's a skill which become more difficult to apply as the years advance. If Mitch can't motivate these kids he's been working years with he'll never motivate adult professionals who don't owe him anything.

Besides, the buck stops with the coach. Dale Mitchell. And that's how it should be.

shrug Or not. It's all moot. Barring violent revolution we're stuck with him for at least the next set of WCQs.

[Jason]

quote:Originally posted by CanD4

To bad Dale Mitchell cut them all. We have alot of talent in Canada at this age but we have no one to identify the talent. Why are all our better players going elsewhere and then being called back to play for Canada only after another country has noticed them, motivated them, believed in their talent and prepared them.

Name me two players who aren't on this team that would've made it better -- and you have to pick players who would be willing to play for us (not JGD2 or the Portugal defender).

I don't know if the starting lineup selection has been all that great, but I really don't see much problem in the roster selection.

Jason

[CanadasBest]

I think there are a few players on this team that think this tournament is a holiday.

I just happen to be staying at the same hotel as the team and the number of girlfriends and family here is totally ridiculous. I can't see any serious team in this tournament having such a lax policy.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Macksam

Winning the game would've definately been a possibility with Hiddink. He took PSV to victories over teams three times their skill and quality like AC Milan, Arsenal(this was actually Koemen but it was near identical to Hiddink's style), Lyon etc. Let's hope he eyes Canada after he's done with Russia.

That is absolutely ridiculous. PSV is a top European club. They may be the underdog against teams like AC Milan and Arsenal but the difference in talent is not even close to what it was between us and Chile. PSV is a team of top level professional footballers playing week in and week out in a top European league. Teams of PSV's levels beat top clubs like Milan and Arsenal regularly in European club play. Results like that are not even major upsets or unusual in the least.