pulsar Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 "ask not what your country can do for you, but what can you do for your country" I think that's all that needs to be said. It's great Bobby only wants the best for his sons' but if he cannot see how happy Julian is playing for Canada then what else is there? You can have great players on a team but it is greater to have team unity. That was shown in this Gold Cup. As good as JDG2 is, there is no guarantee he will make Canada a better team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 quote:Originally posted by jonovision From what I know of the Dutch team, they really seem to like youngsters. They'll cap them, give them a few games and generally leave them by the wayside unless they turn out to be exceptional talents. I think at this point in his career (I'm not saying what could happen in a few years) he'd be a marginal talent for the Oranje. I keep hearing how there is a desire by Holland for his services. But Holland just finished playing in the UEFA U21 in which they won. Their senior team was at the WC last year, They even hosted the last U20 WC two years ago. Those are three major opportunities in two year to cap him. Not to mention the numerous qualifying matches for all the Uefa matches. If they really wanted him, doesn't make sense that it would have been long done by now. If he's the player that people here seem to think he is, do you think that the same discussions and debate would be happening in Holland, but I am not sensing anything from overseas sources. If there was anything resembling a debate on this issue in Holland, you can bet that he would have capped by now. But there isn't. For proof, try googling his name and see what comes up? all links pointing mostly to this forum or other Canadian sources compare that to, for example, Lionel Messi. It wouldn't surprise me that one day we will look back at this drama in the same we we now look back at the legend of Joey Torchia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 quote:Originally posted by pulsar As good as JDG2 is, there is no guarantee he will make Canada a better team. So very true! In short, thats exactly what I have been trying to say above. Looking back over the years, there are plenty of example of hype that we have attributed to certain talents. Anyone remember Terry Dunfield? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Free kick I keep hearing how there is a desire by Holland for his services. But Holland just finished playing in the UEFA U21 in which they won. Their senior team was at the WC last year, They even hosted the last U20 WC two years ago. Those are three major opportunities in two year to cap him. Not to mention the numerous qualifying matches for all the Uefa matches. If they really wanted him, doesn't make sense that it would have been long done by now. If he's the player that people here seem to think he is, do you think that the same discussions and debate would be happening in Holland, but I am not sensing anything from overseas sources. If there was anything resembling a debate on this issue in Holland, you can bet that he would have capped by now. But there isn't. For proof, try googling his name and see what comes up? all links pointing mostly to this forum or other Canadian sources compare that to, for example, Lionel Messi. It wouldn't surprise me that one day we will look back at this drama in the same we we now look back at the legend of Joey Torchia. JdG2 is not yet eligible for Holland so there are no chances to Cap him. In anyevent, JdG2 is not interested in playing Youth Soccer so I am sure that the UEFA U-21 is no more appealing a U-20 WC in his home town. I have seen a recent quote from Van Basten saying the JdG2 is a good player and he be interested in him for the national team. The Dutch, however, have many good midfielder's and after the relatively average season JdG2 had last season, he would not have been high on the list for a senior team call up. I think the Torchia comment is unfair. JdG2 is performing at a pretty high level in a pretty high level league and is still very young. He has recieved much praise from both knowledgable soccer types and the media and I think that it is fair to say that he is a talent much above the canadian norm. Whether he is the next Zidane is another matter of course, and maybe he isn't going to progress any further than has to date, but he has still made it further further than any Canadian player (OH excluded) other than Radz, Stalteri and his brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Gordon The Dutch, however, have many good midfielder's and after the relatively average season JdG2 had last season, he would not have been high on the list for a senior team call up. Pretty sure he was Feyenoord's Player of the Year last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beaver Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 If Jono has any of the character of his brother, then he'll work hard and learn crap loads and maintain the sort of professional approach that will guarantee him great success at the club level. He will be at least as good as Julian, which is clearly something. If he has become a prima donna, then he will have a tough time becoming the sort of pro he needs to become, a true life-long student of the game. My gut tells me he has the character, but maybe not to the same degree as Julian. Those of us who have to fight harder for what we want tend to have the necessary humility--and hunger--to drive success. All the early praise for young Jono could prove debilitating. He needs to keep his head straight, which can be tough when everyone is blowing sunshine up his arse. Which way will he go? i wish I could say he'll pick Canada, and maybe he will, but my head says he'll be Dutch as soon as he can get a passport. Will he crack the senior line-up? Probably, though maybe not long term, and maybe not for a long while. If the Dutch can do it at all levels without him right now, it is hard to see how he'll slot in in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Daniel Pretty sure he was Feyenoord's Player of the Year last season. He might have been, but a dutch magazine ran an interactive "team of the year" process for fans and JdG2 was not even one of the 12 selected in the midfield. This seems consistent with the views of the posters on the Netherlands forum at BS as well. Not that he is a poor player, just that he did not have as good of a season as last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPB Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 DeGuzman senior has a strong point that was not properly expanded upon in that CBC Radio bit. He is basically describing the problem in which in Canada we do not have a strong system for developing a skill base with very young players (i.e. 10-15 year olds) and this is due to the lack of quality coaching. Instead the system gets in the way. The truth is, for this to be 'fixed' is going to take successful club-level iniatives that scout out the kids, that strives to develop kids, that is working in concert, rather than against, the desire of talented kids to seek opportunities in Europe, and so forth. With our population of soccer enthusiasts, the 'raw talent' pool is self-replenishing. I think we all know players who had the potential but lacked the coaching, the mentorship, and the exposure to strengthen skills and to gain experience. The ManU project in Oackville looks very promising. The demand exists and the coaches exist; we just need to bring them together and to promote development earlier than the teen years. Of course, we are competitive internationally even U20 and the step up to the senior level is still huge for our best developed players. There is so much to be done here and so much potential on all levels -- fanbase, clubs, national, business, and so forth. I'm one of those crazy longterm optimists. I don't mind that DeGuzman senior took the opportunity to inform the general radio audience of a major shortcoming with the youth soccer b'cracy. Even in England the problem of developing the talen pool into a vigorous and wide skill base has been recognized. They are doing something about it -- beyond the club level -- and it is an interesting experiment. See: Details on FA Skills http://www.thefa.com/Skills/ Also see: FA combats English lack of skill; Chelsea's Frank Lampard launches a great new scheme. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/6250540.stm quote:The FA skills programme, launched at Wembley on Thursday by Brooking and England midfielder Frank Lampard, aims to raise technical standards amongst 5-11 year olds - the key age at which skills are ingrained. The 66 qualified coaches will visit schools and summer clubs across the country with the intention of giving one million children access to skills coaching by the summer of 2010. [...] "A better quality coach will give us a better individual skill base and then hopefully the elite end will also improve in the long term." [...] "The people teaching me football at school, and no disrespect to them, were a maths teacher and a geography teacher who had an interest in football and tried their hardest. "It wasn't giving me a great base to try and play for West Ham, Chelsea and England. "The way to improve is not when you're in your 20s or even at 15 years old but at the grass roots when you're very young." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishman Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 Why is it that people are focusing so closely on the JDG2 issue upon listening to this documentary? I think the more important issue relates to coaching, or lack thereof. We have enough players participating in this country that we should be able to produce a dozen Julians. Why worry about one that might get away? Let's work towards creating a vastly improved infrastructure for our sport - increased coaching education, better facilities, perhaps two more teams in the MLS, reducing the cronyism in our associations, etc.. If there is a more thoughtful development model in our country, we can create many more elite level players, rather than fretting about the odd misdirected lad who lacks the same loyalty that we might hold for Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massive Attack Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 JPB, the cynic in me thinks the ManUre project in Oakville has more to do with people thinking they can make money off youth soccer in Canada than any altruistic goal of developing talent and giving them good coaching. But like I said, I'm a very cynical person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPB Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 I don't think that's cynical, Massive, rather it is accurate. But even with that, the ManU venture is working in concert with, rather than against, the desire of kids with 'raw' talent. If they make money doing it, the process shows the demand exists and the kids are starving for this level of coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john tv Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 Jonathan will be playing with Roy Mackaay and Giovanni Van Bronkhorst and that may make it or brake it. Feyenoord had a very rough season last year and adding these top players should help Jonathan. Other than that he now admits that he wants to play with the Dutch and that I can assure you will be a very difficult nut to crack, knowing what they have.I guess if he does not make the Dutch team he can always play for Canada,providing,anyway let us hope it will be all nice. I was aware of these propblems in the past,but than again sometimes you have to forget. There are new people who probably would not act that way today.I met Jonathan a couple of times last week and he is a very intense young man who is about as decisive as you can get.I came away thinking that guy is in control no matter what and i suppose he has made up his mind and judging from his past success in Holland he will get what he wants he is that very strong in his convictions.A very powerfull young man. PS I forgot,we both have the same birthday as well,does that explain it, a driven young man.To be exact 50 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 quote:Originally posted by john tv Other than that he now admits that he wants to play with the Dutch and that I can assure you will be a very difficult nut to crack, knowing what they have.I guess if he does not make the Dutch team he can always play for Canada,providing,anyway let us hope it will be all nice. So we're his fallback. Terrific. How much did Bobby influence Jonathan to play for Holland? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 Also, has Jonothan considered the fact that he may get capped once or twice by the dutch and then never again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvroArrow Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 The problem with playing for Holland is that the talent pool is so deep, you may only get one shot at a world cup or a EURO. Unless your name is Frank DeBoer, there's always someone breathing down your neck to take your position. On the other hand, you could play for Canada and be a lock as a starter for as long as you want (eg. Julian). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 quote:Originally posted by striker Also, has Jonothan considered the fact that he may get capped once or twice by the dutch and then never again? I think a couple things should be said. Jono had a mediocre season last year, as the club was poor. They were better the previous, with Kuyt, a few others who were sold. You are only as good as your teammates, sure, but at that age if he were a really hot prospect someone would have bought him. Meaning he was not able to carry the team on his back. He does not have nearly the talent as Cesc for example, sorry to say. Though this year will be key. Another thing is the disorder in the Dutch side. They are a real mess, Van Basten is a poor people manager, and the team does not look solid, coherent or committed. They will get results because the Dutch produce enormous talent, extraordinary. Though sometimes without real leaders on the field, great pros, experienced, but with problems finding players who make or break games consistently. And that means other teams do not fear them as before. All this to say that even if he is called in, it would be because Van Basten can't handle the vets and needs to find youngsters to be more on his side. It would be early for the Eurocup I would think, unless the year is absolutely amazing. And in spite of some serious ageing in the Dutch midfield. Holland is, saying this, not the most stable choice you could make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSoccerFan Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 Bobby's sons are his retirement meal tickets. I remember that article last year where he was gloating about retiring in his mid 40's. I'm sure if he sees more money coming his way through playing for holland then obviously he's going to push him in that direction. It's just puzzling with all the patriotic and supportive comments coming from Julian while his dad is on another planet. Looks now with the transfer window opening we'll have to pray for a foreign suitor to come in for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john tv Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 quote:Originally posted by striker So we're his fallback. Terrific. How much did Bobby influence Jonathan to play for Holland? I assume it was Bobby's extremely smart idea to sent his son to Holland and this I believe was a brilliant decision. I really don't believe Bobby has any influence on Jonathan at al. If anybody it would be Julian. I know that Bobby will support whatever Jonathan has decided and why not. This kid only follows his desires and he has made that very clear.Did Bobby push Julian not to play for Canada of course not. I guess it just happened with Jonathan and there it is. Let's be happy for Canada that we can produce these talents even if they learn the ins and outs in another country. I am sure without checking the facts that many that won a Nobel price were born and even raised in other countries. I called Bobby last night after the media conference and guess what, he was on a soccer field coaching a team.Some great father and some amazing sons. Here is a hypo,suppose Canada makes it into the world cup and draws Holland and Jonathan plays for Holland,this would be some amazing story and even if we advance and draw England. Anyway it is all possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 quote:Originally posted by john tv Here is a hypo,suppose Canada makes it into the world cup and draws Holland and Jonathan plays for Holland,this would be some amazing story and even if we advance and draw England. Anyway it is all possible. A better story would have both De Guzmans playing for Canada against Holland or England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWay Posted June 30, 2007 Author Share Posted June 30, 2007 quote:Originally posted by john tv Other than that he now admits that he wants to play with the Dutch and that I can assure you will be a very difficult nut to crack, knowing what they have. Source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWay Posted June 30, 2007 Author Share Posted June 30, 2007 quote:Originally posted by john tv Why would I be happy about something like that? If the outcome is losing them to another national team altogether, then I'd rather we not develop the talent at all. At least this way future Canadians won't grow up idiolizing traitors and have it implanted in their heads that fleeing Canada for a more fashionable option is OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 quote:Originally posted by JayWay Source? I believe John is friends with the De Guzman family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trueviking Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 quote:Originally posted by striker Also, has Jonothan considered the fact that he may get capped once or twice by the dutch and then never again? i thought the same about OH and england 2 world cups ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pulsar Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 quote:Originally posted by CanadianSoccerFan Bobby's sons are his retirement meal tickets. I remember that article last year where he was gloating about retiring in his mid 40's. I'm sure if he sees more money coming his way through playing for holland then obviously he's going to push him in that direction. It's just puzzling with all the patriotic and supportive comments coming from Julian while his dad is on another planet. I am pretty sure that Bobby Deguzman is just interested in what is best for his sons. Many parents make jokes about their kids being a retirement vehicle, especially when those kids aer successful at something. I am sure that in his value structure, money might well be ahead of patriotism...this is afterall a guy who left his home country to make a better life for himself. He just saw his older son come very close to having his career ended by Bocanegra and he undoubtedly is of the opinion that his sons should maximize their income while they can. Now, I happen to think Bobby and Jonathon have been too conservative by hedging and they have missed the first wave of change in Canada. The opportunities that could have come his way by starring for Canada in the U-20. Ultimately I think he'll miss the boat completely and choose Holland. I am pretty sure that the DeGuzman family and their advisors do not recognize that the potential of soccer in this country is no longer dependent upon the CSA. He'll have more succes internationally, but make less money on the endorsement front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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