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Richard

An open letter to the CSA

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quote:Originally posted by The Ref

Thanks God for that!

Would you put up with all your crap for for two years and no money? For that alone I'd turn down the job.

Have to wonder if people who make the kind of stupid comment you did implying resentment for expenses being covered by the organisation have ever held down the level of job that comes with an expense account and all the rest that goes with it.

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CSA Constitution allows for BOD to claim expenses related to CSA business. Pretty much the same at any level of the soccer community.

The subject is really about WNT issues & how they can be helped so they have a program that leads to a successful WC. Also, how that is balanced w/ the needs of the MNT program.

It a passionate subject as it reflects on Gender Equity in the CSA. How parents view soccer for their daughters & how the sport will attract volunteers. Also, governement fundings.

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Very interesting reading -

Denis Coderre and Fifa President Joseph S. Blatter Sign Bilateral Declaration of Intent for Agreement on Soccer

MONTRÉAL, December 10, 2001 -- Denis Coderre, Secretary of State (Amateur Sport), and Joseph S. Blatter, President of the Fédération Internationale de Football Association (FIFA), the world governing body for soccer, today signed a declaration of intent to develop a bilateral agreement on soccer. Michel Platini, a former French national team soccer captain and an advisor to the FIFA president, was also on hand to witness the signing.

The agreement will promote the development of elite soccer in Canada; the development of soccer in three developing nations; the full participation of women in soccer; and the harmonization of anti-doping policies between FIFA and the World Anti-Doping Agency. Details of the bilateral agreement will be worked out in the near future.

Feds put up $500K for 2002 U19 WWC to help + revenues but did it go back into WNT or the whole National Program. Anyone know?

Full news release & agreement at -

'>http://www.canadianheritage.gc.ca/newsroom/index_e.cfm?fuseaction=displayDocument&DocIDCd=1N0176

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Anyone else find the ability here to still edit posts a full day afterwards hard to follow a thread properly?

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Regs, just trying to cut down on the reading time but lets get back to the issue -

I'm curious how girls & their parents in your clubs feel about this WNT gender equity issue?

I've talked to a few coaching parents at our coaches game & they are putting it lightly, pretty upset. Some are down right angry.

I come from a 1300 girl clubs so there is a huge trickle down PR effect on this WNT issue.

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I am still waiting for someone to show how this is a matter of "gender equity" in any way. Nice buzzphrase, no doubt it riles up the girls, but nothing on this threads speaks to a lack of equity. I do not see the "preparation" of the U-20 men, as being a whole lot different that the preparation of the U-19 Girls when Canada hosted. I do not see the "lack" of preperation for the WNT as being any weaker that the preperation for the MNT.

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quote:Originally posted by Gordon

I am still waiting for someone to show how this is a matter of "gender equity" in any way. Nice buzzphrase, no doubt it riles up the girls, but nothing on this threads speaks to a lack of equity. I do not see the "preparation" of the U-20 men, as being a whole lot different that the preparation of the U-19 Girls when Canada hosted. I do not see the "lack" of preperation for the WNT as being any weaker that the preperation for the MNT.

I think the gender equity movement deal with much more than just preparation time.

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quote:Originally posted by The Ref

I think the gender equity movement deal with much more than just preparation time.

Yes well it should. But since there is nothing being put forward on this thread other than inuendo - inuendo that is likely inaccurate I might add - I am still waiting for someone to show me anything to back up these claims of inequity.

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Hard to talk about $ as the CSA hasn't given the public their Financials/AR's for 5 years. That's one of the problems.

Budget - On GlobalTV BC, WNT stated it has only $150K for WC so bye bye to the other WNT programs & decreased chances of success at WC. Note that budget is smaller than youth clubs w/ 1000+ players.

# of games - CSA site schedule for the programs show WNT w/ 6 games & the MNT w/ 20 not even counting U20 WC

Sponsorship - MNT sponsorship money does not get shared w/ WNT. The WNT does not have a sponsor. Talk has it that the WNT have been approached only to have CSA Soccer Properties say money has to be shared w/ the MNT. CSA Soccer Properties has only been looking for men's. This is why Kerfoot funded the residency program.

Home games - WNT has no home games before WWC. No opportunity to generate revenue, no opportunity to connect w/ youth & senior female soccer players, parents of female players, no opportunity to build momentum w/ their fans.

U19 WC Revenues - it was brough up in the GlobalTV BC interview that the event made money but the WNT didn't see it. This is even though the Canadian Government provided $500K to do the event in agreement w/ FIFA (see postup 5)

Optics - read the Toronto Star quotes & elsewhere of Colin Lindford on where CSA is spending the money & time. This is how the gender equity questions came up. Doesn't really instill a lot of confidience in the WNT & has really upset a lot of parents & coaches of girls playing soccer at the club level.

Comparison - There is no agreement in the CSA on how to handle NT programs as it relates to revenues & budgets. But look at what US Soccer has done -

http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/developing/women/news/newsid=72068.html

CSA Staff Time - total focus on mens which says as a biz they can only handle one program at a time because where are the women. They are up at UBC practicing vs themselves on a typical crappy Vancouver field. No media or any attention at all.

Bottomline - as the WNT stated on GlobalTV, it's about the CSA being able to run 2 programs at the sametime. They don't want to take away from the MNT but at the sametime the WNT have generated more media & revenue for the CSA but they don't see themselves being treated equality.

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quote:Originally posted by CoachRich

Hard to talk about $ as the CSA hasn't given the public their Financials/AR's for 5 years. That's one of the problems.

Yes I agree with this.

quote:Originally posted by CoachRich

Budget - On GlobalTV BC, WNT stated it has only $150K for WC so bye bye to the other WNT programs & decreased chances of success at WC. Note that budget is smaller than youth clubs w/ 1000+ players.

This is about the same as what the means team was given for WCQ in 2004 IIRC. Should be a thread on that somewhere on this site.

quote:Originally posted by CoachRich

# of games - CSA site schedule for the programs show WNT w/ 6 games & the MNT w/ 20 not even counting U20 WC

2006, WNT 31 games, MNT 14 games. U-20 in Canada is a big deal, just as U-19 in Edmonton was. Seems pretty equal to me.

quote:Originally posted by CoachRich

Sponsorship - MNT sponsorship money does not get shared w/ WNT. The WNT does not have a sponsor. Talk has it that the WNT have been approached only to have CSA Soccer Properties say money has to be shared w/ the MNT. CSA Soccer Properties has only been looking for men's. This is why Kerfoot funded the residency program.

Does Kerfoot not count as sponsorship? If a sponsor specifies where its sponsorship should go i.e. Hyundai and the U-20 team, should that money be turned down? Talk has it? Can anybody provide a concrete example or is it just inuendo?

quote:Originally posted by CoachRich

Home games - WNT has no home games before WWC. No opportunity to generate revenue, no opportunity to connect w/ youth & senior female soccer players, parents of female players, no opportunity to build momentum w/ their fans.

Three more years and we will have true gender equity as that was the time between home games for the senior MNT in the not so distant past. The CSA says women's games lose money. Do you have reason to doubt this? But I do agree that both programs should be playing more home games for most of the reasons stated. I just don't happen to think it is a gender equity issue.

quote:Originally posted by CoachRich

U19 WC Revenues - it was brough up in the GlobalTV BC interview that the event made money but the WNT didn't see it. This is even though the Canadian Government provided $500K to do the event in agreement w/ FIFA (see postup 5)

I believe the profits from the U-19 tourney went to pay for the drawings for the Toronto stadium pre-MLSE, which I assume the WNT will use as well. It was supposed to be returned to FIFA, but the CSA went hat in hand to FIFA to ask to keep it. There are threads on that at this site as well.

quote:Originally posted by CoachRich

Optics - read the Toronto Star quotes & elsewhere of Colin Lindford on where CSA is spending the money & time. This is how the gender equity questions came up. Doesn't really instill a lot of confidience in the WNT & has really upset a lot of parents & coaches of girls playing soccer at the club level.

In past years, that effort has sometimes been directed towards the WNT. The U-20 in Canada is a big deal and a lot of effort is going into it. Snapshots in time prove nothing. Lindford has made statements about the relative prominence that should be given to the MNT. Realistic if not PC, however, this is the only thing raised that has gender at its root. Does it carry much weight? Who knows, but I suppose Rene Simoes migh have an opinion on the influence of Lindford on the CSA :)

quote:Originally posted by CoachRich

Comparison - There is no agreement in the CSA on how to handle NT programs as it relates to revenues & budgets. But look at what US Soccer has done -

http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/developing/women/news/newsid=72068.html

Yet it has not been shown that this is a problem. I agree that the absence of financial make it hard to know. But unless there is some reason to doubts Regs source...

quote:Originally posted by CoachRich

CSA Staff Time - total focus on mens which says as a biz they can only handle one program at a time because where are the women. They are up at UBC practicing vs themselves on a typical crappy Vancouver field. No media or any attention at all.

Works both way though. I agree that the CSA can't handle two foci at the same time, but it is not a question of gender. Should the women's WC be a higher priority than the hosted U-20 WC? Gender issues aside, I think that the U-19 did a lot more for the profile of soccer in Canada than the Women's semi-final appearance at the WWC so I think the focus is correct in the big picture.

quote:Originally posted by CoachRich

Bottomline - as the WNT stated on GlobalTV, it's about the CSA being able to run 2 programs at the sametime. They don't want to take away from the MNT but at the sametime the WNT have generated more media & revenue for the CSA but they don't see themselves being treated equality.

And last year the men's program was not treated equally. Happens...its not a matter of gender equity. I really do wonder about the women generating more revenue however. I'd like to know the basis of that statement.

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What the WNT has over the MNT.

- Players on scholarship at American universities.

- Players out of university eligable for Sport Canada funding.

- Kerfoot's residency program.

- Sponsorship's for the team as well as some individual players.

No equality problems here. Just ego issues.

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What the WNT has over the MNT.

- Players on scholarship at American universities.

- Players out of university eligable for Sport Canada funding.

- Kerfoot's residency program.

- Sponsorship's for the team as well as some individual players.

No equality problems here. Just ego issues.

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Gordon, thanks for you time & discussion as it all contributes to the big pictures moving soccer ahead.

Financials - I can get my club, youth district, youth league, senior league, PSO & FIFA's financials but not CSA's. I've tried getting them through my PSO 2x but CSA didn't even respond to them. I've Emailed Sport Canada as public money goes into CSA.

Budget - I couldnt find the thread but I did find this one which says the NT budget is $13M in 2004 (seems high to me) & goes on to talk about why the MNT is so expense due to flying the Pros back & forth.

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4461&SearchTerms=mens,world,cup,2004,budget

Looking at $500K being spend on flying the Pros is bigger than the $150K the WNT quoted in the Global TV interview. Also, if this is $650K there's another $12.25M still somewhere in the program if the $ are right.

# of Games - I got my numbers of the CSA site at http://www.canadasoccer.com/eng/events/index.asp?sub=4

Yes, the U20 is a big deal to all of us. The WNT said that in their interview but the question they had was w/ all the successful events they have had they haven't seen the revenues return to them nor even explained to them. In the CSA Constitutional the Player Reps go to the AGM but they don't get copies of the Financials when they go to the AGM so they don't know. Again back to the Financials.

Kerfoot - the program was outside of the CSA, CSA Sport Properties & IMG. Lindford was quoted when he came on board that they didn't know about it until after the fact. IMO it's a good deal for CSA as they didn't have to come up w/ the money & the Caps when the WWC is over get some good media coverage & well trained players.

Presently the Yahoo & Hyundai sponsorship is not CSA wide deal. In the GlobalTV interview the WNT said they have had WNT only sponsors in the wings but CSA wants it to be CSA wide. Think of all the female specific sponsor that would love to sponsor the WNT but can't. Hopefully next time we see a WNT uniform on TV it will have a sponsors logo on it.

Womens Games Loses Money - no financials so hard to claim. Note at the U 19 WWC, FIFA & Canadian Government signed an agreement that gave CSA $500K to help host the event. Considering that & the great attendance we all saw on TV, not having to fly Pros in & the usual expenses associated to the MNT program there should have been revenue from the event. Again the WNT stated that in the GlobalTV interview but no one has answers.

I would somewhat agree that some of this has to do w/ management but the WNT is saying communicate the plan & don't take their revenues.

IMO they are making a stand again much like they did before on TV revenues which they didn't get but the MNT did.

Profits from the U-19 tourney - no financials, I don't have time to look up more threads & what benefit is BMO when all the National teams spend their time in Vancouver. Doesn't look right to take revenues from the womens program to pay for the drawings does it. Why didn't it come from the MNT or better still the CSA shouldn't have given the marketing rights to the stadium away for next to nothing.

WNT & U20 - Yes, the WNT has gotten soccer back on the map for the CSA as it's not been since the days of Tony Waiters that soccer had a winning profile across the country. U20 is going to be huge & bring in money hopefully for both programs.

"Realistic if not PC" Hopefully I understand you here but Gender Equity is a reality & law. In sports talk to Sports Canada about it as it's quite clear to them & to many sports too who top up $ to their women's programs. Lindford statements were not appreciated by the WNT, it was highlighted in the GlobalTV interview. Also, it's in the Toronto Star articles.

A good example of GE is youth soccer of where funding & spending is equal...at least in my neck of the woods. Sometimes I wonder is Canadian Youth would be better served if they had the US Youth model.

Comparison - WNT budget numbers stated on GlobalTV. At $150K it's smaller than my girls club.

If there were financials that would help wouldn't it?

Again, we should not have to rely on who we talk to but where are the financials. I can tell you my sources are reliable as I was at the interview & have seen the Global TV piece but I'd rather say to you go to page so & so of the financials. Doesn't that make sense?

CSA Staff Time - it does work both ways but why hang the WNT out to dry for the WWC when they have done so much for soccer. It becomes a question of gender when the WNT is experiencing what they are. If they thought everything was fine they wouldn't speak out would they.

How many of you know where & what the WNT are up to? Have they been in the press after New Zealand? WNT see that. They want support, see WNT in the paper, connect to the girls & Canada to carry that into the WWC. They don't want to play outside of Canada the whole time then go to the WWC, where's their identity? Might as well change their colors. Regardless they will prevail as they have in the past.

Bottomline - "I'd like to know the basis of that statement." was stated on GlobalTV. Again, if Canada came up w/ $500K & the stadiums were full one would think they made $. That's the way the WNT sees it but again no financials.......

Other than other or me saying I've tried to get financials/AR's why doesn't someone else try to. I think all of us would be interested to hear back or better still see an attachment of such.

Cheers..........

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quote:Originally posted by CoachRich

# of games - CSA site schedule for the programs show WNT w/ 6 games & the MNT w/ 20 not even counting U20 WC

I'm curious as to where you are getting these numbers from.

Are you talking about senior teams only here?

If that's the case, the WNT is guaranteed to play 8 games this year (the number could increase with a decent WWC run). This number is actually higher if you include the friendly with U of Portland, which I think should be included as part of the WWC prep. I'm trying to find if there are any games between now and the WWC, but the CSA site sucks and I can't seem to find anything on Go Big Red. So it looks like the Women's senior team will play at least 9 games this year. More if they do well at the World Cup.

Now let's look at the Men. At this point, the Men have played 4 games at the Gold Cup and there is 1 game coming up. They have had 2 friendlies prior and 2 upcoming in August and September. Assuming they take advantage of the October and November FIFA dates, there could be 2 more matches. Therefore, the Men could play as much as 11 games this year, 12 if they reach the Gold Cup final.

I don't see what the big deal is here (mind you, I think the CSA needs to set the women up with a few friendlies right before the WWC).

Now lets look at 2006. That year, the senior Women played 17 games! In that same year, the senior men played 4 games. That doesn't seem very fair to me.

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I have not seen any postings concerning the profit from the under 20 WC. Does FIFA get ALL of the profit or does any $ stay in Canada to be used for developmental programs?

Does CSA get government money? If yes then aren't they required to provide annual financial statements?

Before we divide the pie, it would be nice to know just how big it is.

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While I don't believe there is a real gender equity problem, I don't understand how the CSA couldn't set up a friendly for the Women at BMO Field. You could sell the stadium out simply with people interested in checking the new place out, as long as ticket prices were reasonable (say $20-$50). But I chalk this up to CSA incompetance than any sinister move to keep women down.

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It is my understanding that the games the women play abroad are paid by the host country, therefore the CSA cannot take credit for them nor can they be counted to mitigate the CSA's male chauvinist attitude. The women get invited by host countries because of their prestige as a "good" team.

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I doubt the host countries pay all the airfares and subsistence costs for the Canadian team but there is very likely some agreement about sharing of match related revenues. Like everybody else who is commenting on this, I am speculating in the absence of hard facts.

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Hard facts are in the document posted in another thread regarding the Sport Canada decision... within that document it clearly indicates that the trip to France for a couple of games was paid for by the CSA.

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In the Sport Dispute Resolution Centre of Canada (SDRCC) ruling, doesn't say airfare which mirrors what Richard has said. I wonder how the France trip compares to the budget of flying the Canadian Pros out of Europe for MNT programs. I think that was a biggie for Yallop as the players went econo. Again, wouldn't it be nice to have the CSA financials so we could have some info. Hopefully that will happen after the success of the U20's & there will be some extra $ to go around for all the NT programs.

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Read the whole document. Hooper (or was it Latham) specifically apologised in one of the emails for the cost of the ticket and such. Am I interpreting that wrongly?

In any event, I thought this whole gender equity thing WASN'T about money?

I get the feeling that some would complain they got $100 in $20 bills while the men got a crisp $100 bill.

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