MLS is at comparable level to ...?

[redhat]

Just a quick survey on your opinion ...

On GOLTv's Extra Time, Robinson was interviewed and was asked to

describe the level of play at MLS. He says it's a good level but

less physical than The Championship.

I remember a few Millwall players describe USL First Division to the

level of "Conference".

Based on your view of the past four games, how would you compare the

level of play in the MLS? Is it comparable to the CCC? League One?

Bundesliga 2? Lower table Spanish Liga? Or Dutch Eredivisie?

[JamesW]

Wiki says:

"Based on past results in friendly matches vs. Football League clubs, the USL-1 is around the same level as League One in England."

I don't know alot about the USL, but do Cuban national players play in the Conference?

I have never seen a game played in The Championship, so I will refrain from giving an answer.

[Juby]

wikipedia's sketchy, it's based on public opinion (if enough people agreed with an untrue statement, wikipedia would accept it as fact).

[JamesW]

True, but I think that saying it is the same level of play as the Conference is crazy. I go back to my point about the Cuban national player...

[Free kick]

The Toronto Lynx did beat 1860 Munich . At the time an upper to mid table Bundesliga club.

[Free kick]

On a more serious note. The players on TFC from the championship (ie.: tier 2) in England have not exactly stood out or demonstated any superior abilities. Thats not saying that they were poor, but they have certainly not set the MLS on fire. Yet, these were pretty decent players at that level, some of whom have tasted premiership competition.

PS.: More physical does not equate to better.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Sigma

Welsh started off well during his first loan with Leicester, but it only went down hill from there.

Well there are also others. Welsh, IMO has not been strong. Robinson, as I said in another thread, has been "OK". Dichio: For sure, an an agreesive and intimidating presence but in the game that I saw him in, I am still wondering what else he will be able to contribute. Collectively, these players have not necessarily outperformed the american players who have strictly MLS experience.

For example, did any of the english players out perform Maurice Edu? Yet he is a rookie.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Sigma

Welsh started off well during his first loan with Leicester, but it only went down hill from there.

Well there are also others. Welsh, IMO has not been strong. Robinson, as I said in another thread, has been "OK". Dichio: For sure, an an agreesive and intimidating presence but in the game that I saw him in, I am still wondering what else he will be able to contribute. Collectively, these players have not necessarily outperformed the american players who have strictly MLS experience.

For example, did any of the english players out perform Maurice Edu? Yet he is a rookie.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

With all due respects, the Championship can be pretty damn horrendous at times.

I have just seen on game in the stadium (QPR-Derby County, saw Pesch play), and it was not better than MLS. Maybe, as Robinson says, there was more tension, but no more talent.

In pre season the MLS teams seem to be matched with the Norwegian sides, on the basis of results at La Manga, for example.

But it is hard to judge. I saw a scoreless Real Madrid-Betis in the Bernabeu this year that was pretty poor football, in spite of Robinho's fancy footwork.

[Juby]

I found this on http://usasoccer.blogspot.com/ the last bit confuses me a bit but maybe I'm just misreading it.

Tuesday, April 10, 2007

MLS Level Of Play

A collection of quotes from foreign players, or those who have played abroad. If you have any more good ones, post a link in the comments.

3/20/2007 - Carl Robinson

"It is much more focussed towards keeping the ball rather than the end-to-end hurly-burly of the Championship and that suits me down to the ground. It's more like international football."

"My first worry was what the standard would be like but I've been to the States and Canada on pre-season tours with Sunderland and both times we got thumped by teams below MLS level."

3/13/2007 - Terry Cooke

As for the standard, Cooke estimates that it is mid-Coca Cola Championship with the emphasis on graft. “I was a bit naive when I first came over and thought I would find it easy,” he said. “But it is physically demanding. They never stop running even if it is 90 per cent humidity in Dallas or over 5,000ft high like it is in Denver.

“On the technical side, they are catching up, just like they are with everything else. Take the facilities. Even in my two years here, lots of clubs have built their own dedicated soccer grounds. Now they are talking about starting new teams in Philadelphia and Seattle.”

3/1/2007 - Juan Francisco Palencia

In Palencia’s view, a lot of people have remained unaware of how much MLS has improved since the league started. “It’s good, because the standard of play has risen a lot there,” explained Palencia. “When I returned to Mexico, I did so at a good level, and that’s why I was called in to the national team,” Palencia stated. “I have MLS to thank for part of that, because it kept me in good shape physically and technically.”

11/10/2006 - Paul Dalglish

"It's hard to compare the standard with that at home. It's a much more European style of play, partly because of the heat. It's more possession football, there are no long balls from front to back and the pace is slower until play gets into the final third. That's when it speeds up to score goals, which suits me."

8/10/2006 - Dave van den Bergh

Q: So what about MLS?

"It’s different. If I have to compare it I would say it’s like the English league." Like the English game it’s physical and players are very fit and that’s why British coaches do well here I think.

Q: Do you think that the players are as advanced technically. I hear a lot that the speed of thought of the average player is not the same.

"The play is faster in Europe and that makes you want to think really fast or else you don’t make it at that level and fall off. But a lot of American players have done well in Europe. Look at DaMarcus Beasley as a recent example. He went to the Champion League semi final in his first year."

6/8/2006 - Aitor Karanka

Q: So you don’t notice any differences in the style of soccer?

"Yes. Here there’s more rhythm to the play, because there are more alternatives in a game. Back there, it’s very difficult – when you try to move up front, it’s complicated, because the whole team sets itself to defend. Here, whether you’re losing or winning, there are chances on both ends. That’s good, and it keeps the flow of the game moving, so the rhythm is at a higher level here."

10/31/2005 - Brian West

Q: Brian, How would you compare the overall caliber of play in the Norwegian league with that of MLS?

"The overall level of play is very similar to that of the MLS, although I would say that there is more individual flair in MLS. The two leagues are so hard to compare, because they are structured so differently. There are no salary caps here so organizations can build a team that stays together for five or six years. Major League Soccer teams are constantly having to reinvent themselves to comply with the salary cap restraints. Scouts from all the big leagues are constantly at the games here. So I would say that if you are not a mainstay on the US National Team, that this is a better stepping stone to bigger leagues in Europe than the MLS."

3/12/2005 - Ryan Nelsen

On the main difference between the English Premier League and MLS

"For me, the biggest thing is the pressure and passion. The pressure is so intense. The fans – being in a club like Blackburn and the situation we are in, points are like gold. It’s amazing, the atmosphere. The pace of the game is non-stop. It’s 100 mph for 90 minutes. Pretty much, one mistake, you have cost your team three points. It’s pretty cut throat."

On whether MLS prepared him for the EPL challenge

"I think MLS definitely prepared me for it. MLS is very underestimated over here. Coming across some of the strikers MLS has really prepared me for over here in terms of athleticism and technical ability that the majority of strikers have in MLS. The strikers here are very smart. They are physically very strong. They use their body well. In terms of athleticism, MLS strikers are right up there with any one. In that case, it got me prepared very well. "

12/8/2004 - Christian Gomez

"And as far as soccer, there’s a lot of running and pressing, but in a few years, the league will at the same level as Europe."

7/24/2002 - Ian Bishop

"There are some decent individuals but no great teams.

"There was a lad called Onandi Lowe who scored quite a few goals for Kansas City and is now playing for Rushden. That tells you something about the standard."

And he added: "Overall, maybe it's a similar standard to the English Second Division, but slower in pace."

(Three years later, this quote came from Terry Cooke. I guess part of it was due to being bitter over contraction. Either that, or he hates Cooke.)

Cooke was looking for a fresh start after playing his entire career in England, and MLS got a thumbs-up from former teammate Ian Bishop, an all-star as a member of the now-defunct Miami Fusion.

"He had great things to say about the (MLS) game," Cooke said.

[cndsoccer]

i think it is equal to the english championship.

thats not bad considering they have 2.5 mil cap.

[Rujulus]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

The Toronto Lynx did beat 1860 Munich . At the time an upper to mid table Bundesliga club.

I was there, that was a cold day for soccer up at York U. 1-0 iirc? Even then the fans were chanting Marco Reda's name. 1860 did field about half of their first team, including their star striker, Max so-n'-so.

[Cheeta]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

On a more serious note. The players on TFC from the championship (ie.: tier 2) in England have not exactly stood out or demonstated any superior abilities. Thats not saying that they were poor, but they have certainly not set the MLS on fire. Yet, these were pretty decent players at that level, some of whom have tasted premiership competition.

PS.: More physical does not equate to better.

Partially agree on both points excepting that I can't think of any CCC player who's been brought in which has stood out (in my mind) as being some brilliant MLS raid of CCC's "better" talent. It's not as though TFC won a bidding war for their services so I'm guessing the CCC clubs as a whole pretty much agree with me.

What does it say if JB, who couldn't find work in England and has sat out an entire season can be one of the few solid, reliable player on a disorganized team while playing completely out of position? Guess it depends who you ask.

Would also add TFC has looked a shambles for the most part and we'll be better able to judge the players against each other as things settle down some.

As to physical not=better I guess it depends what your looking for in your footie. Can't separate the balancing match between athletic prowess, ball skills, and field judgement. Now a-days you'd say I prefer a more physical game but back up a few decades and the popular opinion was I was more continental. Don't think my views have changed any but the game sure has.

To me, the physical intensity (and consequent mental intensity) is the test which separates the playground genius' from the match day regulars.

[Juby]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

Partially agree on both points excepting that I can't think of any CCC player who's been brought in which has stood out (in my mind) as being some brilliant MLS raid of CCC's "better" talent. It's not as though TFC won a bidding war for their services so I'm guessing the CCC clubs as a whole pretty much agree with me.

Serioux established himself as one of the best defenders pretty quickly last year, unfortunalty he had some injury problems that kept him from quite a few games.

[Mighty_TorontoFC]

MLS is equal to the championship in England, and maybe one or two clubs (Houston, LA) could handle playing in the premiership> Lets face it though MLS has come a long way in such a short period and still has another way to go before all clubs would be of the premiership level, but

that takes time.

[Canuck Oranje]

I have to admit that the MLS level of quality is better this year than I expected. But that is primarily due to the fact that it is improving from year to year. Three years ago, I would have said it was below that of CCC and Bundesliga 2.

Now, having thought about it, I fall into the camp that says it is difficult to compare leagues. That is because when comparing leagues, it assumes that all teams in a league are relatively equal. While this is more likely to be the case in CCC and B2, it is not in the premier leagues of smaller countries.

I think it is better to compare the talent that can be found in a league as a starting point. In this way, I would argue that there are some better players in MLS than you would find in CCC or B2; but, the depth of talent in CCC or B2 is probably still better. In other words, the non-starters are better in these leagues.

At the same time, I suspect Heerenveen minus Afonso Alves or Friend's Heracles Almelo would be about MLS quality. As well, a league like Brazil's Series C (and maybe bottom half of Series would have a similar level of play but likely with the Brazilian leagues having deeper talent on the bench.

Mo's biggest mistake so far, in my opinion, has been to assume that marginal starters in CCC would be quality MLS players. So far, that has proven false. At the same time, he has overpaid for that talent.

[brandon]

The level of play in the MLS has really improved over the last few years but i still feel that it falls somewhere between mid-bottom level of the CCC. There are no teams LA included that could maintain a place in the prem over the course of a season and maybe 2 or 3 that might find themselves in a push for promotion. That being said with American tv money and promotional opportunities the sky really is the limit for this league.

[Juby]

I think some people are being a little overly optimistic about MLS, I would put it around the bottom of CCC too. I think that it's a little early to be full out judging Robinson,Brennan, dichio, they are only 4 games in (less for dichio) to a different league with a different style of play.

Also, I don't think any MLS team has proven to be a real competition against the Mexican teams in the Conacaf club qualifiers, I think they best they've done is a successful home leg (I could be mistaken though) and since the EPL is a better league then the Mexican league, and since the Mexican league is a better a league then MLS, then I think it's stretching it to assume any MLS team could handle a full premiership season plus cup runs which unlike mls, run concurrently.

[Juby]

sorry about the double post but I got the stats to back up my claim of mexico vs usa in club competition, this year MLS teams did all right but lost both semi finals too mexican teams, which was the only time MLS faced off against mexican teams this year:

2007 Semifinals/Semifinales

SF 1

15.3.2007 Houston Dynamo (USA) - Pachuca CF (MEX) 2:0 (0:0) Houston, Texas USA

5.4.2007 Pachuca CF (MEX) - Houston Dynamo (USA) 5:2 (2:0) (4:2) aet Pachuca, Hidalgo MEX

SF 2

15.3.2007 D.C. United (USA) - CD Guadalajara (MEX) 1:1 (0:0) Washington, D.C. USA

3.4.2007 CD Guadalajara (MEX) - D.C. United (USA) 2:1 (1:1) Guadalajara, Jalisco MEX

In 2006 MLS teams failed to make the semi finals, both New England and LA lost to costa rican teams.

In 2005, Kansas City fell to Deportivo Saprissa in the quarter finals and DC United barely made it to the semi final after losing 2-1 and then winning 2-1 against Harbour View FC of Jamaica. They went on to play UNAM in the semi final:

2005 Semifinals/Semifinales

Series 1

6.4.2005 D.C. United (USA) - Pumas UNAM (MEX) 1:1 (1:0) Washington, D.C. USA

13.4.2005 Pumas UNAM (MEX) - D.C. United (USA) 5:0 (1:0) Ciudad de Mexico, MEX

In 2004 no mexican teams played MLS teams but San jose lost their quarter final to LD Alajuelense of costa rica, Chicago fire battled a 6-5 aggregate win against CL Financial San Juan Jabloteh of Trinidad just to lose in the semi final against Deportivo Saprissa.

I'm stopping at 2004 cause I looked at 2003 and it was dreadful, losses to guatamalan teams and drubbings by the Mexicans.

I found these stats at http://www.concacaf.com/viewCompetition.asp?id=197

How can we compare MLS to any European league if we still haven't proven ourselves better then the Costa Rican league? The good thing is that you can see an improvement towards the present day but until we start winning the competitive matches against other leagues teams, then we can't really make to much of MLS quality.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Juby

Also, I don't think any MLS team has proven to be a real competition against the Mexican teams in the Conacaf club qualifiers, I think they best they've done is a successful home leg (I could be mistaken though) and since the EPL is a better league then the Mexican league, and since the Mexican league is a better a league then MLS,

Well I saw the most of the two concacaf champions league semi final and from that I have to slightly disagree with your claim. Its was a stroke of bad luck that prevented DC United from reaching the final ( ie.: a slippery ball in rain). Also, there is no real evidence to support your comparaison of Mexican competition versus England. Sure, based on a host of factors such as economic and recognizable talent, you would have a hard time making a credible case in favour Mexican cub soccer over England. But to what extend? that is the key question.

[Juby]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Sure, based on a host of factors such as economic and recognizable talent, you would have a hard time making a credible case in favour Mexican cub soccer over England. But to what extend? that is the key question.

true, but Its still my personal opinion the EPL is stronger then the Mexican league

edit: I forgot to put the word 'alot' into it, and by alot, I would place Mexico between the German Bundesliga and the portuguese league (which in my opinion are 5th and 6th best leagues in europe

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

In this way, I would argue that there are some better players in MLS than you would find in CCC or B2; but, the depth of talent in CCC or B2 is probably still better. In other words, the non-starters are better in these leagues.

I think that is fair point. If you were to pick an "All-MLS" team of the best at each position and stack it up against the CCC's best, the North American side would look better.

But I think that you could probably say that about a great many first divsions of national leaguers around the world. The problem that I have always had with seeing Canadians with non first divison soccer clubs in the UK is just that. Namely, they will play with and against some good players but not with and against any great players. I think that you become better at anything you do by being around the great ones. Its with that in mind, that I hope that more and more Canadian talent chooses MLS as opposed to the CCC or other non prem clubs.

PS>: I tend to view The scandinavian leagues as feeder leagues, hence akin to the CCC etc.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by Mighty_TorontoFC

MLS is equal to the championship in England, and maybe one or two clubs (Houston, LA) could handle playing in the premiership>

But if that were true, then MLS wouldn't have nearly as much parity as is does. The gap between the best CCC club and a club that "could handle playing in the EPL" is huge! We see this when the best CCC teams get promoted, then they add several players to improve even further, and yet still more often than not struggle to survive in the Premiership.

[franx]

It's really hard to compare different leagues in quality of play, even when they have exhibition games or tournaments where they meet....a lot of times it's just off-season training for one of the team and a very important international match for the other...as far as MLS goes, i do think most of the teams could do ok in the championship, but the overall quality is a little lower...I see more technical and tactical errors in MLS...and probably more turnovers...I find the possesion game not that great in MLS....still entertaining soccer!!!what i just said could be said from a lot of latin american first division leagues ( not argentina or brasil ) which is where I rank MLS... i think most ccc teams, with the whole team and reserves etc, playing in mls would easily win it....i might be wrong, but they do have more quality players on the bench and in the reserves