TFC/ future Canadian MLS team crisis

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

From what I can see pretty much the whole team has a fitness problem. There is no excuse for this.

Would that include the likes of Alecko Eskandarian and Jim Brennan? What games have you been watching?

[Ivan]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

From what I can see pretty much the whole team has a fitness problem. There is no excuse for this. A new team may take a certain amount of time to gel because the players don't know each other and that is not Mo's fault. However, it is just as easy to ensure an expansion team is fit as it is to ensure an established team is fit. Indeed since the team is new, one would think that the coach would try to have a fitness level higher than that of other teams to compensate for the player's lack of familiarity with each other. There is no excuse for TFC tiring in the second half of each game so far in the season. If it takes 6 or 7 league games for the team to get fit that is Mo's fault for not establishing an adequate fitness program.

My observations and assessment exactly. Every game their play in the first and second halves have been analogous to night and day. The drop in play strongly suggests a fitness issue. Perhaps they should have kept that fitness guru around longer than 2 weeks. Maybe next year they will play more pre-season games against high level competition rather than scrimmages against our U20s or the US U17s.

[Gian-Luca]

The player with the biggest fitness problem (outside of those injured like Pozniak) in the last game was Welsh. He was clearly out of gas in the 2nd half & should have been subbed much earlier. Same with Nagamura.

I think Mo's comments about Reda are fair, but one might also have said the same thing about Boyens after the Revs game. He's been given a 2nd chance & I expect Reda will as well, particularly when Boyens gets himself suspended from an accumulation of yellows or a straight red.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by john tv

I tried to convince the commisioner to have a second Canadian team in the the league and he was very guarded about me request. To be honest I only segested Vancouver, since it seemed a natural. He said not yet it is to fast.I left it at that.

CANADIAN EXPANSION: MLS commissioner Don Garber spoke to reporters in the press box at halftime and did not rule out further expansion to Canada, but said if it does happen, it will likely occur five or seven years down the road.

Garber mentioned Montreal and Vancouver as potential expansion candidates.

"We're looking at 16 teams by 2010. A lot of U.S. cities have been engaged in discussions with us, but there's been interest [from Canadian cities] and we'll see where that goes and continue discussions," Garber said.

"I think if we continue to build on the success of [Toronto FC] in this country, we'll certainly look at Canadian expansion in the future, but not in the near future. … Our focus right now is getting this team successful and build on some of the early successes over the past few months."

[hottoddy7]

Half a season 16 games 2 wins 1 firing. Playing at a high level doesn't make anyone a great coach.

[The Beaver]

I'm not sure if we currently have enough Canadian talent to field three strong MLS franchises, but the entire idea behind TFC--and future franchises--is to provide young Canadian players with a real professional alternative in the country, a place to develop, something to shoot for etc. i will be enormously dissappointed with the entire TFC experiment if we do NOT see some good young Canadian players crack the line-up in the next two to three years.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

I think Mo's comments about Reda are fair, but one might also have said the same thing about Boyens after the Revs game. He's been given a 2nd chance & I expect Reda will as well, particularly when Boyens gets himself suspended from an accumulation of yellows or a straight red.

Boyens was dropped after the Revs game, however, so that was Reda's chance to really nail down a starting role. With the yellow card on Saturday I thought Boyens was maybe following instructions to clatter into Johnson early to try to intimidate him a bit as it is a very Scottish thing to do. Often refs will just give a stern warning that early in the game. Brennan did much the same at the start of the second half.

I was genuinely shocked by how badly Reda played in the first KC Wizards game where he got subbed off immediately after the third goal in which he had looked a bit like a rabbit staring at a car's headlights. Players like Reda, Pozniak, Braz and Canizalez (the probable prime target of Mo's latest blast in today's Toronto Sun, "There are some guys on this team who just came back from playing overseas who aren't prepared to play at the level that is necessary to succeed in the MLS. They will soon learn to play better or they will be watching the game from the bench.") need to get their act together soon now before the summer transfer window, which opens up in mid-June this year.

[Mighty_TorontoFC]

What happens if TFC finds say a Brazilian player who is willing to play in Toronto, if they get him into the country and he gets citizenship does that make a domestic player or foreign?

[Loud Mouth Soup]

Unless he has some family connection, he won't get 'instant citizenship'.

[lotusballs]

Once Vancouver has a new stadium , they are probably the team in the best position to join the MLS. Their history of numbers ( attendance ) is the best in this country over the longest period of time when they had a stadium to match the number of fans.

Largest club game ever wtached in this country was over 60,000 at bc place stadium.

With Empire, the Caps regularily had 30,000 plus...Fan base here is the largest per capita in the country. It's the only year-round outdoor soccer season in this country. Minor soccer seasons are mostly from september to march.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by lotusballs

Once Vancouver has a new stadium , they are probably the team in the best position to join the MLS. Their history of numbers ( attendance ) is the best in this country over the longest period of time when they had a stadium to match the number of fans.

Largest club game ever wtached in this country was over 60,000 at bc place stadium.

With Empire, the Caps regularily had 30,000 plus...Fan base here is the largest per capita in the country. It's the only year-round outdoor soccer season in this country. Minor soccer seasons are mostly from september to march.

Hi Lotus. How many times did you see a game at Empire, just curious.

If we averaged 20,000 that would be stretching it. But the atmosphere was usually pretty good.

Right now the best attendance in Canada is in Montreal.

[DarnCherry]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Hi Lotus. How many times did you see a game at Empire, just curious.

If we averaged 20,000 that would be stretching it. But the atmosphere was usually pretty good.

Right now the best attendance in Canada is in Montreal.

Well 20,000 wouldn't be stretching it some seasons (overall certainly). Caps averaged over 20,000 at empire 3 seasons (4 if you count the part of the season they played there in 1983). 1979: 22,962....1980: 26,834....1981: 23,736. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say they "occasionally" got over 30,000 to games at empire.

[DarnCherry]

[john tv]

Toronto has set a standard not only in Canada but right across N.A. This standard not only is soccer specific but also a standard that other sports will study and admire. This will spill over into any other city in Canada and the US.

However the interst is there big time ,it still needs a powerfull organization such as the MLSE group to get that media to accept us as big time players . This is what happened. In fact it is really after the MLSE a no brainer.They wrote the book and Paul should be very happy to see all his very hard work and in the trenches as well pay of immense big time. Our kids demand this level of excitement,nothing else comes even remotely close in our pro sporting circles,is this what the media was scared of after all?

[lotusballs]

I like what I'm hearing here. There are certainly 3 vital soccer areas in this country.

yeah , I attended a number of games at Empire. Regularily at 30,000 ? Well , the place certainly had over 20,000 ( it always looked pretty full ) at a time when there was half a million less people in the Lower Mainland than there is now. This is all about the stadium available to your soccer centre. Toronto has done some things well: Most important is the construction of BMO stadium. Vancouver already has great structure and foundation in the Whitecaps . My contention is that with the stadium , we would draw like Toronto with half the population. I am not familiar with Montreal's strategy for ticket sales, but having seen the Impact play, they certainly have set up a decent soccer team. Saputo stadium looks like a good concept. Just curious, why isn't it set up for expansion to 25,000 ? Montreal is a big town. lots of immigration. Good soccer core . (?)

[masster]

As much as I'd love to see the Whitecaps join MLS, without having a huge organization such as MLSE behind them, I don't see anyway that they'd have as much successs at the gate initially. What do I base this on? My gut #1. But secondly, a move to MLS would not be viewed with the same newness in Vancouver as it was in Toronto. For those in T-O (except some U-Sector guys obviously) the Lynx were a non-factor. To the average fan or media person, they did not exist. So when TFC started up it was like getting something that the city never had before. Everybody is talking about it being the first team since the NASL days.

In Vancouver, that wouldn't be the case. The Whitecaps are not a non-factor. While they obviously do not make a huge dent on the sports scene, people are aware of their existence and their recent success. In the eyes of the public, a move to MLS would be a move up in division but nothing more. They'd remain the same old Whitecaps; a drop so small on Vancouver's sporting scene there wasn't even an article in the Vancouver Province today after last night's win over Seattle. I could imagine an extra couple of thousand season tickets but not much more. I'd estimate attendances similar to other MLS franchises but nothing like what Toronto has achieved so far.

If anything, I think the stadium will have a larger effect. It will be a novelty for a while, but we all know how quickly that could fade.

This would be my guess. I hope I'm way off base though.

[Richard]

There was an article in the Vancouver Sun about the Whitecaps=Seattle game:

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/sports/story.html?id=94c9df3e-bc5f-4213-83b2-7e896d466621

Dan Stinson has been really quite good about following the team and writing regular pieces.

[youllneverwalkalone]

quote:Originally posted by masster

As much as I'd love to see the Whitecaps join MLS, without having a huge organization such as MLSE behind them, I don't see anyway that they'd have as much successs at the gate initially. What do I base this on? My gut #1. But secondly, a move to MLS would not be viewed with the same newness in Vancouver as it was in Toronto. For those in T-O (except some U-Sector guys obviously) the Lynx were a non-factor. To the average fan or media person, they did not exist. So when TFC started up it was like getting something that the city never had before. Everybody is talking about it being the first team since the NASL days.

In Vancouver, that wouldn't be the case. The Whitecaps are not a non-factor. While they obviously do not make a huge dent on the sports scene, people are aware of their existence and their recent success. In the eyes of the public, a move to MLS would be a move up in division but nothing more. They'd remain the same old Whitecaps; a drop so small on Vancouver's sporting scene there wasn't even an article in the Vancouver Province today after last night's win over Seattle. I could imagine an extra couple of thousand season tickets but not much more. I'd estimate attendances similar to other MLS franchises but nothing like what Toronto has achieved so far.

If anything, I think the stadium will have a larger effect. It will be a novelty for a while, but we all know how quickly that could fade.

This would be my guess. I hope I'm way off base though.

We really only have the short-term to discuss based on TFC's history. The downtown stadium is really the key. If Toronto FC played at Centennial they'd be the Lynx in MLS -which is what I hear you saying about the Caps. A waterfront stadium and a recognized higher league will attract the corporate crowd, foreigners, lazy supporters like myself, and maybe even disgruntled long time fans like Krammerhead. It will also energize the supporter group we have, and likely create at least one more (a la the RPB). Anybody who's watching the CBC broadcasts must be getting excited to see a decent level of football in a proper football stadium. When you throw in the location (hopefully) and the natural grass pitch, there's no doubt in my mind Whitecaps to MLS will be a success. Maybe not as big as Toronto, but certainly better than most current MLS venues.

[Richard]

Will be interesting to see if TFC can sustain their support and attendance figures in coming seasons and that the numbers don't fizzle. I hope they do sustain this level but will be watching with interest.

[VPjr]

While I don't live in Vancity, I personally believe that the Caps would be very well supported if/when they make a move to MLS and build that beautiful waterfront stadium.

No matter how you cut it, USL-1 is a minor league. The quality of play might be good but the perception is that the Caps play in a minor league. Vancouver is a major league city and deserves to have it's home team play against other "major" league teams.

The fan base is there for a 20,000 seat stadium to be filled for every game. I just Lenarduzzi doesn't run the team (had to put it out there..just not a big Bob fan).

Montreal would be a great addition for the league too but I am not sure if Montreal soccer fans are willing to fork out the money for tickets....plus, it sure doesn't seem like Saputo is interested. However, if Saputo has deep enough pockets to give away 15000 tickets per game, then the place would be hopping.

[DarnCherry]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

While I don't live in Vancity, I personally believe that the Caps would be very well supported if/when they make a move to MLS and build that beautiful waterfront stadium.

No matter how you cut it, USL-1 is a minor league. The quality of play might be good but the perception is that the Caps play in a minor league. Vancouver is a major league city and deserves to have it's home team play against other "major" league teams.

The fan base is there for a 20,000 seat stadium to be filled for every game. I just Lenarduzzi doesn't run the team (had to put it out there..just not a big Bob fan).

Montreal would be a great addition for the league too but I am not sure if Montreal soccer fans are willing to fork out the money for tickets....plus, it sure doesn't seem like Saputo is interested. However, if Saputo has deep enough pockets to give away 15000 tickets per game, then the place would be hopping.

I think you are bang on with all your sentiments. Especially the part where you hope Bob Lenarduzzi doesn't the team.

[The Beaver]

from that I understood, both Kerfoot and the Saputos have expressed interest in eventually joining MLS. Montreal is a world class city; they won't want to dwell in a lower division league when both TO and Vancouver (soon, I hope) have MLS sides.

[VPjr]

Montreal is definitely a world class city (and home to some of the loveliest ladies in the world) but they are a funny sports crowd.

If the event is downtown (i.e. Habs, Alouettes, F1) they will come. If it's not downtown (and it's not like there is a lot of room downtown for a soccer stadium), they seem less likely to go. The Impact play a bit outside the downtown core....and, from what I understand, they give away alot of free or deeply discounted tickets to fill the stadium. I love the look of the new stadium that Saputo is building but its being built down by the Big O. For some reason, Montrealers don't want to drive the 15-20 minutes to go there...hopefully they will make the trek for the new soccer venue.

[nolando]

I'd love to get this thread back in order and throw around a little more discussion on the topic in general. So now we are more than halfway throught the MLS season and what can we say for TFC's situation regarding Canadian players?

Looking at today's game versus Chicago Fire, where Toronto finally had most of their "new" first team together, there were two Canadians starting, Djekanovic in nets and Brennan. Two Canadian players (maybe 2.5) players per starting eleven seems to be about the average when there is anything close to a full squad to draw from. Pozniak subbed in today, and looks like he has some future with the club, but as for the likes of Reda and Braz and Canizalez (not to mention the resrve squad) it looks very clearly to me like Canadians are just filling out roster spaces, spaces that TFC needs to fill with Canadians and also with cheap salaries (with young Ontarians living at home being the only pool to draw from for reserves).

Relax, you tell me (right, Gian-Luca, U-Sector, et al?), it's only the first season, but I have to say that if anything the fact that it's the first season has made it more likely that we should have seen some creative solutions to the solve the ongoing shortage of useful Canadians. As the season has worn on, while Mo has carefully traded up to get slightly better quality players amongst his non-Canadian personnel, virtually nothing has changed with the Canadian situation.

Time to worry, guys, unless Mo knows something that we don't. Maybe there is a backroom struggle to have the Canadian quotas eliminated altogether, like the USL did a while back? This would of course alleviate the crisis (and I do think it is a crisis - the Canadian keepers haven't really looked up to snuff - I'd imagine Mo would happily have a non-Canadian there if allowed, and how long can Jimmy Brennan reasonably be expected to play past a couple more years?) but should TFC fans and, more importantly for our cause, Canadian MNT fans be any happier about the solution?

And what does Mo think about his Canadian players, who sit quietly (for the moment, but for how much longer?)) on the bench or, worse yet, in the stands?

Read these comments of his that were published this month in an interview with Toronto Life,

"I'd like to change some of the mentality in these Canadian players," he grumbles at the Soccer Centre. " I don 't think the intensity 's there. I think they're slack. They're a little bit lazy. They don't come on time, and I don't like that.E

http://www.torontolife.com/features/goal-oriented/?pageno=1

Now, I am not a critic of Mo Johnston ( I actually admire most of what he does), but how do you think this has to feel to Jim Brennan or Greg Sutton, who also could quite easily see themselves lumped into the pool of "lazy", no-intensity Canadians? How do you think the Canadian fans should be feeling about this British man who continues to bring in as many lower division non-Canadian players as possible, while slagging the Canadian players of this Canadian team to the Canadian press and the Canadian fans in this Canadian city?

And then try to imagine who will be starting for TFC two or three years from now. If the U20 guys get any good they will surely be sold to Europe (great, I should point out, for Canadian soccer, but terrible if you were banking on fielding those same guys for TFC), if they don't get any better they won't even play for the reserves. Again, how old (or how good) will Sutton or Brennan be in three years? Are there any other Brennans or Suttons to draw from? Will anybody want to come home to Canada to play? Will TFC ever pay the kind of money that would be required to lure home even aging or homesick Canadians playing regular football in Europe?

And then try to imagine how we might realistically field THREE teams handcuffed by Canadian quotas. Are there enough Canadians who could possibly play for Vancouver or Montreal, if those teams wanted to field a competitive side?

And then try to tell me that I am overracting, that this is nothing for a Canadian soccer fan to be concerned about, and that we are not living what is increasingly looking like a worst case scenario in terms of the effect that TFC might have had on our Canadian MNT. No, TFC and MLSE have never had any responsibility for the development of Canadian soccer, particularly not the Canadian MNT. But could any of the fans or the CSA have imagined it having any less (worse?) of an impact on our program? I mean, never mind having simply no-effect on the MNT, the existence of TFC actually meant that we did WITHOUT Jim Brennan at the Gold Cup.

[Canuck Oranje]

In my opinion, the issue of young Canadian players coming to TFC with a lazy and uncompetitive attitude has to do with their own lack of high level competitive experience. Where TFC and hopefully more professional teams can really help is by providing examples of the professional opportunities in the sport and also offering a route to get there (training centres, academies, etc.).

In fact, the CSA also needs to reexamine some of its own policies to ensure that they support a primary objective of developing as many young players to the highest level possible and national team programs that clearly put winning at the top of its priority list (rather than various other political concerns such as regional player representation, use of Canadian coaches, distibution of national team game locations).

Expecting TFC to make uncompetitive decisions in order to help immediate national team concerns would be shortsighted and disrespectful of its fan base who have paid to see a team that will do its best to win. Building a larger and demanding fan base is also critical to the success of our national team program.

As for concerns about quotas being eliminated, I don't see that happening. I could see a shift to a pooled Canada/USA quota but that may increase opportunities rather than lessen them. I would also like to see the MLS to move away from the single-entity structure and to an individual salary cap structure.

My only issues with TFC are its seeming infatuation with players who have played in the UK. Not that I have anything against those players, except that they tend to cost more. By spending more on these players, there is less salary cap available for Canadian players. TFC management needs to understand that import players are a dime a dozen for this league. There international players of the same quality available for far less money.

There is a school of thought in the CFL that says that a team should focus on getting the best Canadians possible and then fill in around them with imports that you can afford. Of course, TFC also has to deal with the single-entity salary cap.