TFC vs Revs [R]

[sj]

will see what formation when they play in Colorado

the pitch is 80 yrds wide

3 at the back will be sucidal.

the team look out of shape

Buddle was huffing and puffing in the second half

I tought he brought someone from England that have the players on a conditioning schedule.

looks like MLSE got ripped off on that one.

[Massive Attack]

You can download the match here if interested:

http://www.mininova.org/tor/663092 MLS - NE Revolution vs Toronto FC 14Apr07 1st - 400MB

http://www.mininova.org/tor/663405 MLS - NE Revolution vs Toronto FC 14Apr07 2nd - 400 MB

Thanks to Nechushtan at Maxxed.

[jpg75]

Toronto FC has been playing a 3-5-2 since preseason, they used this formation in the Carolina Cup - atleast against RBNY and Charleston, the 2 games i watched. The problem, as Jeffrey pointed out is that in this formation the flank mids must play both ends of the field to protect the outside back from being pulled out to the wing and isolated too much. In this respect, Canizalez was totally abused by Khano Smith and could not keep up with him on runs or was too far forward and out of position. This is one key problem that needs to be addressed with the formation. The other is Andrew Boyens not being capable enough to defend one on one. The 2nd and 3rd goals were clearly his fault, the 2nd he lost track of Twellman and the cross and got spun around. The 3rd, he lost his mark and then had to foul Cristman in the box. So, if he wants to stick with 3-5-2, he needs to change personnel. If he wants to keep the same personnel, he needs to switch to 4-4-2.

[amacpher]

Can't believe that so many people in here are surprised.

Expansion teams suck. Always have! This team sucks!

That thread "will TFC make the playoffs" will provide some comic relief in about six months.

[john tv]

Yap it is a bit of a downer and I guess we must all take one step back and realize that this is a team game and in this type of league you just don't walk in and start winning.

We all have to be very patient and between the groans and moans and we again must be still very happy that we have this team in Toronto and a great stadium as well.I suppose that Mo may consider going the 4-4-2 route and train that way.

It was indeed a very hard pill for me to swallow but had a good talk and realized that you can't expect the impossible and credit to the league,this thing is for real.

[JesseDart]

To echo eveyone's observations. The system being played 3-5-2, does not work. It doesn't suit the players and it is a very complex system. Go safe as an expansion team with a flat 4-4-2 or even an attacking 4-4-2 diamond. We need 4 stay at home defenders. We are playing the offside trap too often, which is just killing us, we need to use it wisely.

Makes every player look bad. It's unfair to point to Canizalez, Welsh and Boyens as the culprits. If you ask me they are the ones working the hardest. If I was to point fingers I pick Nagamura and Buddle,. They are veterans of this league and they don't impose their leadership, look lazy and inconsistent. But again, let's give everyone a break for now...

[Guest speedmonk42]

I think almost everyone is right on here.

3-5-2 requires a delicate balance.

I am not at all soccer 'conservative' but I really have to agree with the sentiment that for the sake of an expansion team starting out 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 would have made more sense.

Hell, 442 practically coaches itself its so hardwired into players brains.

[youllneverwalkalone]

quote:Originally posted by fan

I hope the beer is good quality at the bmo field cause 3 years of this untill you will see anything watchable.The league is very low quality, semi pro really, very little difference with any other American league.Cant even watch the top teams play in this league yet.

Beckham better have lots of his peers pouring in this league asap.

Mo could be the best coach in the world and implement the best technical plan in the world and this team is going to play like dirt in a dirt league for quite awhile.

Just keep your expectations real and you can kind of enjoy it. Cheer for Canadians and drink lots of good beer untill things improve.

This post is the exact opposite of my impressions of MLS and, as such, must be a steaming pile of ****e. Brennan and Robinson, two very good 2nd tier European players, look to be very surprised by the quality coming at them. Canizales and Boyens seem well out of their league, while Reda and Sutton don't exactly look comfortable either. I think a lot of people, supporters especially, have underestimated the quality of this league.

[Stephen LaRose]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

This post is the exact opposite of my impressions of MLS and, as such, must be a steaming pile of ****e. Brennan and Robinson, two very good 2nd tier European players, look to be very surprised by the quality coming at them. Canizales and Boyens seem well out of their league, while Reda and Sutton don't exactly look comfortable either. I think a lot of people, supporters especially, have underestimated the quality of this league.

Maybe Chivas USA's first year should have illustrated something. When they were an expansion franchise, their idea was to get players from Mexico's third and fourth divisions, dress them up in a famous uniform, and watch the money roll in as they teach these gringos how to play futbol. How well did that work out in the first season? Didn't they win something like three games in their first year?

[Guest Jeffery S.]

I think regardless of the results, we have to give them more time.

First, it is always hard to get a result away from home. TFC have played two teams psyched for home openers. If they lose every game away and win every one at home they are in the playoffs.

Second, the coach has to come up with an idea on the basis of friendlies then try it in real matches. Two is not that much, he may want to insist a bit more, at least try: coach's have the right to defend their ideas and be consistent, so I will give Mo a break.

A scoreless draw next match will be a good result, get the defence working and go forwards from there.

You also need the players not performing to not perform before you replace them, before you make the changes. So they take themselves out effectively, they know they are not helping, and understand that the results count. As the team starts to get more competitive internally things just might pick up as well, as players try to win a starting spot or get the one they had back.

Where I can't figure the guy is bringing in guys from English lower divisions, none of whom will show high motivation in North America. Even Beckham will coast, you can be sure of it. You won't get 100% from any of them as none are hungry, and noone thinks there is anything to prove in the MLS.

Now if they are Canadians this might be different, as at least they are defending national pride as well. Even some younger Americans with ambitions to get on the national team may show more drive and heart. A good u-20 from Honduras or Chile could also be interesting, a kid with something to show and something to prove, who will be thankful for the money. But not guys on their way down and looking to give their families a vacation.

[sj]

Mo said that this week he will double the amount of practises

which to me means that he was not doing the maximun parctises required iin the first place

so he was not doing whatever it takes to prepare his team to their potential

when you are an expansion team you know that the others has the benefit of having played together longer

to try to compensate for that you start your preseason way earlier that the competition

play at least twice as much preseason games to give your team a chance to be competitive from the outset.

he promised that at least they will be competitive

did not see any of that

clueless was more like it.

no leadership not sense of purpose just eleven guys running around on a soccer pitch.

dont think he underestimated the calibre of MLS he had an assitant coaches with tons of experience in US soccer.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

As the team starts to get more competitive internally things just might pick up as well, as players try to win a starting spot or get the one they had back.

Where I can't figure the guy is bringing in guys from English lower divisions, none of whom will show high motivation in North America. Even Beckham will coast, you can be sure of it. You won't get 100% from any of them as none are hungry, and noone thinks there is anything to prove in the MLS.

Now if they are Canadians this might be different, as at least they are defending national pride as well. Even some younger Americans with ambitions to get on the national team may show more drive and heart. A good u-20 from Honduras or Chile could also be interesting, a kid with something to show and something to prove, who will be thankful for the money. But not guys on their way down and looking to give their families a vacation.

I agree with your points, Jeffrey. It will be interesting to see who will be dropped and who will emerge in the coming months.

[Rujulus]

Hi all, great forum.

(proposed) lineup @KC:

..............Sutton..................

...Asante...Reda....Braz....Pozniak...

Nagamura..Robinson..Mulrooney..Brennan

.......Eskandarian...Casey............

Time for Pozniak to strap on a wooden leg & get in there.

[john tv]

You know it seems funny but Mo is the only one at the management level that knows soccer. All the others know nothing and that seems to be what has happened anyway in North america,it is still a foreign game and top level management now know that soccer is a potential money maker but they simply know nothing about the game. So that is a very serious hurdle. I guess to be very smart would be to bring in not only a foreign coach but also foreign and very experienced management.But our media will never ever accept that. It is bad enough.

So it is all about time and acquiring experience and I hope in a hurry.

On the marketing and PR side TFC has done a more than outstanding job.

So I guess we will have to continue to experience these losses till everybody knows what to do and mostly what not to do.

[jpg75]

Who cares if the media doesn't like foreign management being brought in!? It's not like the media is looking for a hot quote from Paul Beirne, they're too busy talking to Mo. Besides, if a foreigner can speak English and know what they're doing that's all that matters. At this point however, management is not an issue, it's what is going on on the field...

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Where I can't figure the guy is bringing in guys from English lower divisions, none of whom will show high motivation in North America. Even Beckham will coast, you can be sure of it. You won't get 100% from any of them as none are hungry, and noone thinks there is anything to prove in the MLS.

Beckham has never coasted in his life. HE has maintained a high work ethic even during tough times at Real Madrid. If anything I think he will work harder in MLS since it'll be like getting a breath of fresh-air when he leaves the corrupt Spanish league.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by amacpher

Beckham has never coasted in his life. HE has maintained a high work ethic even during tough times at Real Madrid. If anything I think he will work harder in MLS since it'll be like getting a breath of fresh-air when he leaves the corrupt Spanish league.

I agree that Beckham usually has a good work rate. But even then his presence on field for Real Madrid has often been very minor, especially playing on the wing. He is not a player to dominate in the midfield, though I seem to recall he was once capable of it. But his passing is only average and his speed rather atrocious. He will definitely not be giving his all for his new side.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by amacpher

the corrupt Spanish league.

According to who?

[bettermirror]

Beckham won't coast. His passing is superb. Especially his vision over distances - IE, the first leg against Bayern Munich.

[bettermirror]

Beckham won't coast. His passing is superb. Especially his vision over distances - IE, the first leg against Bayern Munich.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

According to who?

Everyone who isn't a Barcelona supporter.

Spain has big political and cultural divides creating excess hatred, and a lot of Barca sympathizers have reached the top of La Liga's power-ladder.

As a result of those two facts, we have match-fixing occurring in Spain as we speak, where Barcelona is getting favours and Real Madrid are getting screwed by referees week-in and week-out (anybody who saw the Racing - Madrid match knows exactly what I'm talking about). Just one example: Madrid lead the league in yellow-cards received. This makes zero sense for a team that usually outplays the opposition and has the skill that they do.

I wouldn't be surprised to see FC Barcelona in Spain's second-division in a few years. [8)]

Anyway, this is probably not appropriate discussion for this forum.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by amacpher

Everyone who isn't a Barcelona supporter.

Spain has big political and cultural divides creating excess hatred, and a lot of Barca sympathizers have reached the top of La Liga's power-ladder.

As a result of those two facts, we have match-fixing occurring in Spain as we speak, where Barcelona is getting favours and Real Madrid are getting screwed by referees week-in and week-out (anybody who saw the Racing - Madrid match knows exactly what I'm talking about). Just one example: Madrid lead the league in yellow-cards received. This makes zero sense for a team that usually outplays the opposition and has the skill that they do.

I wouldn't be surprised to see FC Barcelona in Spain's second-division in a few years. [8)]

Anyway, this is probably not appropriate discussion for this forum.

All of this trash coming out of your mouth just because I said Beckham won't play 100% and neither will the lower league English players. Which I still hold to.

Why don't you learn to argue with your brain and with language first, then spew vomit as a later resort?

Beckham has never been rated, in all his years in Spain, amongst even the top twenty players in the league. Noone considers him a stalwart worker, as he stays on the side and rarely mixes up in the heart of the midfield. He never will beat his defender down the wing. His short passing game is only average, while of course his long pass is quite good, and his free kicks deadly. He has been a utility player for Madrid, apart from being someone who has frequently claimed rather dubious physical problems to get out of games (of course he is not the only star to do this upon occasion).

These are the facts everyone who has seen him weekly knows. Listening to him it seems he is a stable factor in the dressing room and a good companion on and off the field. So no problem there, and there have been games, a few a year, when he has been decisive for Madrid. But his presence on the team also happens to coincide with their absolutely worst drought in history, the longest consecutive period without a trophy since the league started in 1929. So the Beckham years at Madrid are in fact dark years, apart from in the shirt selling department and in the value of the team for selling friendlies in China or the States.

As for your knowledge of Spanish football, pure ignorance. If you want to have a serious discussion about what happens in Spain we can, I have no problem, but stop using this tack just to get back at me for making common-place observations about your lover boy. WAtch out for Victoria, boy, she reads you she is going to get mighty jealous.

The difference between Barça and Madrid this year is that Barça plays way below its potential almost all year round and should be leading the league by a dozen points already. And Madrid is pure crap, the worst quality of play we have ever seen from them. And even Madrid fans at Bernabeu will turn to you with doeful eyes, shrug their shoulders and tell you "es que el Madrid esta muy aburrido este año, ¿qué podemos hacer?"

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Beckham has never been rated, in all his years in Spain, amongst even the top twenty players in the league. Noone considers him a stalwart worker, as he stays on the side and rarely mixes up in the heart of the midfield. He never will beat his defender down the wing. His short passing game is only average, while of course his long pass is quite good, and his free kicks deadly. He has been a utility player for Madrid, apart from being someone who has frequently claimed rather dubious physical problems to get out of games (of course he is not the only star to do this upon occasion).

....

As for your knowledge of Spanish football, pure ignorance. If you want to have a serious discussion about what happens in Spain we can, I have no problem, but stop using this tack just to get back at me for making common-place observations about your lover boy. WAtch out for Victoria, boy, she reads you she is going to get mighty jealous.

Oh deary me, there goes the neighbourhood.

All this because I said Beckham has a good work-ethic? I never said he was highly rated. I'd rate him somewhere between #50 to #100 in the world. But that, and a good work ethic (which everyone except you seems to agree on) is still enough to make him the most influential player in MLS history (not saying much, I admit).

As for the corruption, how do you explain that Madrid have 103 yellow cards this year, more than any other team (Levante is second with 95 and I don't have the complete ranking but I'm sure the top 5 is rounded-out with La Liga's celler-dwellers. And I'd be very surprised to find another top team leading their league in yellow cards)??

Here's some more insight into the corruption for you to chew on. It deals with referee selection for certain matches. Sounds familiar? Yup, we saw this in Italy too.

http://www.as.com/articulo/futbol/Real/Madrid/pedira/notario/designaciones/arbitrales/dasftb/20070416dasdaiftb_18/Tes/

You need to stop spending all your time hanging around dead-beats who do nothing but curse Andalucian and Castilian Spain.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by amacpher

Oh deary me, there goes the neighbourhood.

All this because I said Beckham has a good work-ethic? I never said he was highly rated. I'd rate him somewhere between #50 to #100 in the world. But that, and a good work ethic (which everyone except you seems to agree on) is still enough to make him the most influential player in MLS history (not saying much, I admit).

As for the corruption, how do you explain that Madrid have 103 yellow cards this year, more than any other team (Levante is second with 95 and I don't have the complete ranking but I'm sure the top 5 is rounded-out with La Liga's celler-dwellers. And I'd be very surprised to find another top team leading their league in yellow cards)??

Here's some more insight into the corruption for you to chew on. It deals with referee selection for certain matches. Sounds familiar? Yup, we saw this in Italy too.

http://www.as.com/articulo/futbol/Real/Madrid/pedira/notario/designaciones/arbitrales/dasftb/20070416dasdaiftb_18/Tes/

You need to stop spending all your time hanging around dead-beats who do nothing but curse Andalucian and Castilian Spain.

Your baiting, but since I can have this boring regionalist argument with any wayward nutcase in a bar over a beer I won't give it to you here.

Of course you are the one that started talking about corruption in

Spain, which I suppose you know little about, when I said Beckham won't give his all at the Galaxy, so read the thread and get your facts straight. There are Beckham fan clubs you can join and drool with the Japanese teenagers without anyone coming along and ruining the karaoke.

Just on the stats though, from what I have seen this Madrid has the lowest goal scoring ratio since I think the early 80s, or maybe worse. They have the amongst the worst record in yellow cards, yes, and in fouls. This is because they are badly organized and never have the ball. Their possession stats are very low. On the other hand they have a good record away from the Bernabeu, best in the league, while at home they are quite poor. The reason is simple: Capello's system works when they can let the other team take the initiative, while when they have to show it, like at home where most teams always come to defend and counter, they can't handle it. They have no decent creative mids (Guti is terribly sporadic), their best goal scorer does not participate in team play (Ruud), their wings are below par all year (Reyes, Robinho, Beckham). Raul is in the same place he has been for a few years, scoring every so often and running around senselessly, sad case as he is a classy person.

As for refs buying, well Cannavaro complains about being with one of the players with most fouls against, but in Italy they never called him for such play as his club was bribing refs not to. That has indeed been proven, there is evidence for it. He and Capello won two leagues under that system. Which makes it logical that they would complain about "not getting help from the refs", ironically the words Capello uses ("los arbitros no nos ayudan"). This can only be said when you are used to getting help, when it is standard and habitual, as it has always been in general at the big clubs in all leagues, but especially, in Italy and Spain, for literally decades, as everyone knows, at la Juve and el Real.

Just to get back to the thread topic: when I hear Mo saying he needs someone like Dichio to hold up the ball and work on set plays, I cringe a bit. Mo seems to be saying he has not idea how to properly develop an attack with his players in open play, and that is worrying. After all, if the problem is in the creation side, maybe a more creative attacking mid is what is called for?

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Your baiting, but since I can have this boring regionalist argument with any wayward nutcase in a bar over a beer I won't give it to you here.

Of course you are the one that started talking about corruption in

Spain, which I suppose you know little about, when I said Beckham won't give his all at the Galaxy, so read the thread and get your facts straight. There are Beckham fan clubs you can join and drool with the Japanese teenagers without anyone coming along and ruining the karaoke.

*LOL* Nah, I've never been a big fan of Beckham's but perhaps it appears that way to people blinded by their hatred of anything Real Madrid related.

If you followed La Liga at all, you'd know that Madrid are better with Beckham in the lineup. Even Capello knows that. That's why he had to go against his own promise (that Beckham's Madrid career was over) and insert Beckham back into the team.

quote:

Just on the stats though, from what I have seen this Madrid has the lowest goal scoring ratio since I think the early 80s, or maybe worse. They have the amongst the worst record in yellow cards, yes, and in fouls. This is because they are badly organized and never have the ball. Their possession stats are very low. On the other hand they have a good record away from the Bernabeu, best in the league, while at home they are quite poor. The reason is simple: Capello's system works when they can let the other team take the initiative, while when they have to show it, like at home where most teams always come to defend and counter, they can't handle it. They have no decent creative mids (Guti is terribly sporadic), their best goal scorer does not participate in team play (Ruud), their wings are below par all year (Reyes, Robinho, Beckham). Raul is in the same place he has been for a few years, scoring every so often and running around senselessly, sad case as he is a classy person.

None of that explains the yellow-cards. Madrid can't be that bad considering they are still 3rd in the table, even after numerous rip-offs like the match against Racing last weekend.

quote:

As for refs buying, well Cannavaro complains about being with one of the players with most fouls against, but in Italy they never called him for such play as his club was bribing refs not to. That has indeed been proven, there is evidence for it. He and Capello won two leagues under that system. Which makes it logical that they would complain about "not getting help from the refs", ironically the words Capello uses ("los arbitros no nos ayudan"). This can only be said when you are used to getting help, when it is standard and habitual, as it has always been in general at the big clubs in all leagues, but especially, in Italy and Spain, for literally decades, as everyone knows, at la Juve and el Real.

But the bias refereeing begun at the onset of the Laporta era.