Italian Police Beat Up ManU Fans

[Grizzly]

This will probably start another war between amacpher and forza_italia but pretty shocking footage of police brutality from the Roma-ManU Champion's League game. I think one of the reasons behind the amount of crowd problems in Italy as that the Italian police often act like hooligans as well. Why are the Italian police only on the ManU side of the barrier? Why do they make no attempt to stop the Roma fans from taunting and throwing stuff at the ManU fans? Why don't they just form a barrier between the fans instead of immediately beginning to beat up the ManU fans? Why do certain policemen continue to truncheon fans who are not even resisting? To me it looks like the riot squad are just waiting for the first excuse to attack the ManU fans. Reminiscent of another Roma match when after a player's brawl the Italian riot police kicked the s-hit out of the Galatasaray players. Are the riot police at Roma matches actually Roma hooligans themselves? They sure seem to act like it. Here is the footage:

http://tvpot.daum.net/clip/ClipView.do?clipid=2505449&srcId=&tag=&lu=v_srcclip

[amacpher]

Look how the policemen are dressed-up! It's like they're going to war! Would anything have happened if the police were just dressed normally, like the policemen you see patrolling the streets in Canada? Unlikely.

The most shocking thing was from the CHIEF OF POLICE in Rome. "This was no big deal. A small matter"

I don't doubt that Roman police have bigger problems, but you don't send a bunch of riot police to batter a bunch of innocent, harmless tourists and call it "no big deal".

[Gordon]

I have to be honest with you, and perhaps Jeffrey S. can offer a different perspective than the small "e" english media, but the Sevilla Police also seem to have badly overstepped reasonable bounds as well. Normally I don't have a lot of sympathy for Travelling Brits as they are often the author of their own misfortune then plead innocence or provication, but what I've seen and read, it might appear that on this occasion they have grounds.

[Desigol]

Do Italian Police understand Surrey accents well?

[beachesl]

Ummm, why are these fans not being football fans instead of yahoos?

There is no such thing as overeaction by police to fan misbehaviour especially given the histroy of some ManU fans (a small minority). I hate the US invasion of US and Afghanistan, but at least the military is right in terms of tactics when they say that they do not want a "fair fight".

In a fight between the police and hooligans, the police, anywhere, do NOT have to "fight fair".The hooligans had no business being anywhere near the dividing fence. Remeber, the police in Italy have just been through the trauma of having one of their numebr killed in fan violence.

[Grizzly]

beachesl, there is no excusing football hooligans but there is also no excuse for police acting like hooligans themselves. In fact, in this video of the three hooligan groups taking part the police are by far the worst of the three. This is also not the first incident of the Roma police being accused of hooliganism. Many western European police forces use soccer matches as their opportunity to beat the shi-t out of people because the laws and media of their countries don't allow them to in other situations. Could any western police force act the way the Roma police are acting while they are making an arrest in a non-football related manner. It has been my experience that in countries where the police act violently towards the fans this makes fan violence far worse. This police tactic is sure working in Italy for example.

If the police are to be seen as the good guys they have to behave better than the criminals and be unbiased in their enforcement of the law. Hooliganism is a crime and the Roma police were committing hooliganism themselves. They should be stopping criminal acts not committing them. Why were the police only on the ManU side of the fence allowing the Roma fans to provoke and throw things at the ManU fans? Its not like Roma fans have a better reputation than ManU fans, in fact, they have a worse reputation. The reason is because the Roma police are largely Roma fans/hooligans themselves.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by beachesl

Ummm, why are these fans not being football fans instead of yahoos?

There is no such thing as overeaction by police to fan misbehaviour especially given the histroy of some ManU fans (a small minority). I hate the US invasion of US and Afghanistan, but at least the military is right in terms of tactics when they say that they do not want a "fair fight".

In a fight between the police and hooligans, the police, anywhere, do NOT have to "fight fair".The hooligans had no business being anywhere near the dividing fence. Remeber, the police in Italy have just been through the trauma of having one of their numebr killed in fan violence.

Wow! You are naive. It was probably all arranged between the Roma ultras and corrupt Roma police. The Roma hooligans (aka police) wanted an excuse to beat the English supporters, so they arranged for the Roma thugs (disguised as football fans) to approach their side of the barrier and bait the English supporters to approach the other side of the barrier.

Of course this scam backfired since the English supporters didn't really take the bait. ( a few approached the barrier, but weren't doing anything dangerous). So the hooligans/police had to chase after and beat English supporters, exposing them for the neanderthals that they are.

I don't get your war analogy either. Is that how eye-ties look at football?

[TorontoInferno]

Lets not let the english off the bag here...there was trouble outside the stadium too. Not only that, against Lens, there was problems in France, i'm surprised you didn't blame the eye-ties for that one...Or perhaps the spanish police getting battered by Spurs fans throwing seats? is that Italians fault too? Maybe the english 'fans' should get some blame.

Over reaction or not by police, there is always two sides to a fight.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

The only fans who have consisent problems travelling are the English. That says it all, they are the absolutely worst. And the English press over and over again ignores this and only cries they are being mistreated, which could be the case. But amongst them you will find the most animal-like human beings you will ever come across travelling with a football team. Since I live in a city with team that has never been out of Europe (Barça is the only club to be able to make this claim), and often gets a long way, and apart from that is a low-cost travel capital of Europe and where fans everywhere want to travel to because of the weather and culture and bars and fun, I see fans from all over the continent. So I think I have some basis to what I am saying.

I know that we are talking, in the end, about a minority percentage of the fans, as the vast majority are not violent, at least not directly so (verbal abuse is quite common, but even then not majority). And I will say this: I live in the centre of Barcelona and I cannot tell you how many times we have hosted English teams here in my 20 years in BCN, Leeds, Newcastle, Man U a couple times, Liverpool multiple times, Arsenal, England just two weeks ago. There is no question the situation has improved immensely, because before it was pretty fu-cking horrid, you found real animals and real racism towards the locals, mind you it was and still can be the same in the coastal towns, the ones who mistreat waiters and waitresses and trash shops and will pick a fight with locals and are most likely to go up to a girl and fondle her on the street are the English. This is a longstanding reality. But it has improved, a lot in fact, I think the situation is a lot better. I think the change started to happen mid to late 90s, it is true we did not see too many English rivals in the late 80s early 90s but even still.

This does not take away from the fact that there are real borderline minorities, I saw this recently with the England fans for the Andorra game, who were a surprisingly low level, some real low lifes in there, much more than what you get with the clubs nowadays. We are talking about drunken agressive sexist violent scum on the streets of your city, and they make you wish you had a gun, sorry to say. The England fans were weird as unlike what is more normal now, you don't see any families, no women, just fat drunken slobs pissed off because we had storm conditions and their travel agencies promised a bit of sun and fun, angry at the coach, and not in a good mood anyways, no fun having to struggle against Andorra that, it was all a bit masochistic anyways travelling for such a game. But really I was disappointed, as usually you can talk to the odd one, and this time it was pretty impossible. At least with the last bunch from Liverpool I spoke to many and there was some real fine lads there, in fact the Liverpool fans are so nice it is downright surprising, almost gets me worried, but I think that is a class shift happening with fans of some clubs, generational and social class, and it is softening things out a bit, which as a Liverpool fan I don't entirely like. I think they are getting the sort of yuppie newbies we associate with Chelsea at all the big clubs in England now, and that shows when they travel.

But in spite of improvements, and some fine times with English fans here (I recall some amazingly good humoured Arsenal fans chanting on the metro once in the Petit and Vieira days, and that was a great laugh) I have never seen fans from any other country as bad, the difference with the Scots, for example, is light years, in spite of the Ranger's fans doing silly anti-Papal chants in Pamplona, in the rather intensely religious Navarra.

That said, the English press now washes over all the bs in England for one simple reason, the one I am saying here: things are a lot better. Meaning they still ignore that compared to almost all other fans in the world, when the English travel they still give you some hefty minorities of true scum. And I think that what happens is that though the English authorities think it is all quite manageable now, wherever they go and cause problems, however minor, the police may have their backs up. I don't know, at the Andorra game the stewards were very low key, there was hardly any visible security, perhaps not having any opposing fans made it easier on things. But perhaps elsewhere they have their backs up. Spurs fans at Sevilla on the holiest day of the year, it was a problematic day as it is, they never should have even played on the most important religious holiday in Andalucia and on the key day for processions in Seville, with night processions to boot, so bad news, having those fans in your town getting drunk with not too much respect for the intensely solemn nature of the day is a bad combination.

Conclusion: police brutality, well that is a universal reality, and Spanish police have been known to be damn arbitrary. I know it is happening with illegal immigrants all the time, and as an immigrant here I have become rather militant about such abuses, meaning I am vocal and don't pull punches publically, about rapes in jails and beatings and the like. But I for one am not going to cry about a few odd fights with English fans at games, since anyone who has lived the total lack of respect that often accompanies many of their visits couldn't give a damn if a few find the end of a club.

[Cheeta]

Going to wade in a little..

JeffreyS, you wouldn't have seen any English rivals in the late '80s because of Heysel. And if I remember correctly even after the ban was lifted (1990?) UEFA cautiously limited the number of 1st Division/EPL teams back into the competitions. Might not have that quite right but I distinctly remember the 1st few years after England re-joined EURO competition how anxious everyone was (especially in England) that things go swimmingly. But of course by then the anti-hooligan crusade was in full fervor and the FA was sparing no expense to stop the rot.

(Can you imagine it today? EPL clubs banned from EURO competitions? Not bloody likely. UEFA's heart is too close to it's wallet).

Videos I've seen don't flatter the Italian police at all. And UEFA should give this episode a good hard look. Too much crap happening in Italian football these last couple of years which can't be ignored. Might be time for a bit of bitter medicine me-thinks.

But honestly, in the big scheme of things the videos ain't that bad. Couple of guys got worked over, couple of dozen more got stitches as a trophy from their Roma mis-adventures. Maybe the biggest sting to the Man U. fans came from being chased from the terrace. Maybe the biggest sting was from feeling abused. Maybe a bit of both. Still, you worry that things are heading towards something much worse.

But I'll guarentee you this, there are 10 legion of old hooligans back in England who're telling everyone who'll listen that in THEIR day there was no way in Hell that those sorry arse Italian policemen would've driven THEM from the terrace. No sir. Quite the opposite.

And that's not something we need the young learning from the old.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

The only fans who have consisent problems travelling are the English.

The only destinations where they consistenty have problems is in southern europe. I wonder why...

quote:

That says it all, they are the absolutely worst. And the English press over and over again ignores this and only cries they are being mistreated, which could be the case. But amongst them you will find the most animal-like human beings you will ever come across travelling with a football team.

Possibly true since a) they drink more than any other travelling supporters and they travel in bigger numbers.

Of course, you can flip your point around and argue that the reason there isn't as much trouble when southern european fans travel to England is because the English stadiums and security are better equipped and organized to combat this problem.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

I was expecting some more gutteral rebuttals of my view, as mine was quite from the gut I admit. This is because I live in the centre of a very dense city which is flouded with locals and tourists, and the human balances are tough at times. And I am talking about what is happening in my back yard, literally, though if you have never been here you can't understand what it is about. So when a clearly disruptive presence comes along and upsets the sometimes delicate balance of shopkeepers, restaurants, theatre and club goers, hangers out, families, retired musical hall performers, drug dealers, pickpockets and lots of others, well it does get you irked.

I can walk out the door of my apartment building and I have, within literally 100 yards, something like 18 bars where I can watch the late Sunday game only available on cable. If for some reason I am not watching a game I can usually know a result by fan reaction coming from the bars, especially when windows are open in the spring. Last Andorra match some of my usual bars right near here were taken over by the visiting fans drinking it up at around 5 or 6 in the evening, which is alright. One group I later saw in the stadium who had their flags on the front of where I had breakfast this morning for example, were quite cheerful and upbeat, I saw them later in the stadium and they were laughing about the debacle, mind you they were older long-haired types, not the typical look about them, as if they were old rockers or somethings, anyways they were taking it easy. But even these guys were into a bit of verbal harrassment from the bar that afternoon, catcalling and bravado, which is not too pleasant when you happen to hear that a female neighbour or mother of one of your kid's classmates was harrassed or even chased.

As for the argument about southern Europe, it is a complex one. I would argue that there are a lot of factors, some cultural, some to do with urban structure of Mediterranean cities, very dense, of how you have tolerant drinking laws and virtually no habitual public drunkeness here, and if so hardly ever aggressive drunkeness (drunken behaviour is culturally determined, it is not a consequence of blood alchohol levels) totally opposite northern Europe. Of why people go south, for sun and fun, which is often an invitation for rowdiness and abuse, and one that many in Spain think they should stop using as a selling point (Spain still sells the low-cost prepaid packages and then find the spending and social habits of those who come are disruptive, and many think it is the fault of the tour operators for encouraging this, especially when there is enough gastronomy and cultural heritage to sell instead).

In any case, the kind of police club swinging that shocks folks in Canada, is quite habitual here even in the oddest of situations, we have had some pretty violent scenes with squatter evictions, anti-globalization rallies, with union related actions (strikes), with neighbourhood protests blocking a road. We illegal immigrants were always fair game, especially the Berbers or black Africans were easy to beat, even in public, I remember how it was in my first years here when more immigrants were without papers than with.

[Grizzly]

I think everyone is losing perspective on the situation here. It is true that drunken English tourists behave poorly in continental Europe. It is true that ManU has some hooligans (and to be quite honest I despise ManU and their fans and actually like Roma). Yet it is also true that Roma has a large number of hooligans and that the Roma police have long been known for hooligan like behaviour including one time beating up on live television not the fans of Galatasaray but the players and coaching staff. The fact is that two teams with hooligan elements met and fans of both sides behaved poorly. Yet the Roma police only saw fit to brutally enforce the law with one of these groups of fans/hooligans and also attacked many fans who were not engaging in hooligan activity. The Roma police not only acted like hooligans themselves they acted like hooligans to one side while letting the other side do what they wanted. They should but probably won't get a severe reprimand from FIFA. Roma should not be allowed to have home games for the rest of the CL and next year's European Cup. It is one thing when a team can not control the fans in its stadium and they commit acts of violence. It is quite another when a team cannot control the police and security in the stadium and they commit acts of violence.

[canso]

Winning is the best revenge and WOW! 7-1!?!?!

[pulsar]

Just gonna throw my 2 cents is....I have been to many matches overseas and by far the scariest to watch was a Roma match. The hooligans there are evil. That being said I haven't been to a Celtic/Rangers match.