TFC good for Canada National Team?

[puskas]

The CSA talked as if the Toronto FC will really improve Canada's place in international soccer because Canadian national players will be playing together year around. However looking at the roster with only 6 Canadian players on it and 5 American players, what country are we really helping? Most of those 6 Canadian players are not even national team material at this stage. Will this change in the future? Correctly if I am wrong but I believe TFC must take on 3 American players as foreign players but if we wanted to could we have the rest of the roster be Canadians or are we obligated to pick up other foreign players?

[youllneverwalkalone]

as i'm at work on good friday, let me take a stab at a generic response:

you have to look to the long-term. have a look at the developmental roster and then imagine Whitecaps and Montreal also with a similar list. at this stage we should see some improvement in our player pool and increased familiarity in playing style between national team members.

in the short-term, if Asante can develop into a decent national team player, TFC has already accomplished something in its brief history.

[puskas]

We only have 3 semi professional teams. That is really poor when looking at even weaker countries who at least have a domestic league of around 16 professional teams. Then you look at how the TFC and Impact have more foreign players than Canadian players and the Whitecaps also have 7 foreign players. Perhaps the only thing TFC did was kill the dream of an all-Canadian league, which is the best way for Canada to become a World Cup regular. We do well on the u-20 level because in the youth level we have massive registration however after there is no league for these many talented players to go into. TFC is not near good enough solution. The only way TFC could have helped significantly is if at least half the current TFC members were from the national team. The Americans must be smiling because Toronto kills an all Canadian league, allows more jobs for American players and gives them more money.

[Massive Attack]

Firstly, TFC didn't kill an all-Canadian league. That was killed already a few years back when the Canadian USL teams made it clear they had no interest in the proposed CUSL. How do people really expect a Canadian league to rise from the ashes? Getting a team in the MLS (with the hope that its not the last) is a far better situation than the status quo. Sure, I'd prefer a Canadian domestic league, but I'm a realist.

As per TFC and development, I never expected them to single handedly save our National Team. I don't want TFC to even be the National Team. I would still like to see our best players in Europe's best leagues. But there's nothing wrong with the club being a stepping point for our players, or a place for a players to come back to.

Currently, there are a lot of great young players in the TFC system, if just a few of these become important members of the nats in a few years, I'll be happy.

[youllneverwalkalone]

again, the generic response is that Canada cannot sustain a domestic league and the best we can hope for is to get back to roughly where we were in NASL -where we qualified for '86 as one of the top 24 national sides in the world.

making judgments today is short-sighted. Wait for Vancouver and Montreal to join MLS. By this time, if these academies are functioning as they are planned, we should be developing professional talent in a way this country has yet to see -or so goes the plan

[MM2]

quote:Originally posted by puskas

Correctly if I am wrong but I believe TFC must take on 3 American players as foreign players but if we wanted to could we have the rest of the roster be Canadians or are we obligated to pick up other foreign players?

TFC is not obligated to carry any American players, they could field a 28 man Canadian roster if they wished. They are allowed to sign up to 7 senior internationals, all 7 could be American, though a minimum of 3 must be Americans if they decide to sign the full complement. In addition they can also sign 5 youth internationals if they so chose.

[Guest speedmonk42]

Long term thinking is what you need here.

More opportunities for Canadian players the better.

[Andrew W]

quote:Originally posted by puskas

The CSA talked as if the Toronto FC will really improve Canada's place in international soccer because Canadian national players will be playing together year around. However looking at the roster with only 6 Canadian players on it and 5 American players, what country are we really helping? Most of those 6 Canadian players are not even national team material at this stage. Will this change in the future? Correctly if I am wrong but I believe TFC must take on 3 American players as foreign players but if we wanted to could we have the rest of the roster be Canadians or are we obligated to pick up other foreign players?

Best I know, TFC are not obligated to carry any foreign players, Americans included. If they wanted 28 Canadians, they'd be free to do so. However, being a business and not a public service I think they're wise to bring in vets and quality players of all nationalities to compliment the Canadians. I believe they are receiving some additional SI and YI slots for the first couple of years. Eventually they are to come in line with whatever the MLS rules of the day dictate, just in reverse (Canadians instead of Americans as domestics).

While saying TFC will help the national team was a nice way to garner support for the stadium etc., I'm not holding them or any other professional franchise to any sort of ransom, insisting they produce national team players. If they're a quality organization that focuses on developing a championship-calibre team, due to the rules they'll develop Canadian internationals out of young players (U-20's, late-blooming Collegians, etc.) by default. However, I don't think this picture will be complete until Vancouver and Montreal (hopefully) enter MLS. Toronto just isn't going to get young west coasters (in particular) to sign developmental deals or lower-wage deals because the cost of being away from home will be too great. These players (I think of Riley O'Neill and Tyler Rosenlund in particular) would be more likely sign deals with a Vancouver MLS team, had one existed this year, for this very reason. They could live at home with mom and dad or friends and make the lower wage stretch further.

I like what TFC is doing with it's Canadian content so far. They have two consistent national teamers (Brennan and Sutton), three players on the cusp of consistent NT call-ups (Braz, Reda and Pozniak), a bunch of potential young stars (the U-20 guys) and four worthwhile projects (Asante, Hemming, Guzman and Chencinski). The last four are what makes this whole exercise worthwhile IMHO. Giving a college grad or late-bloomer (although Asante was U20 player) like these guys a chance to impress is what I envisioned when TFC was given the green light. The really good young players that are well developed skill-wise always seem to find a way, but the late bloomers may be the real diamonds uncovered by this whole endeavour.

Time will tell and two more teams in the future would help immeasurably.

[puskas]

If TFC could carry 28 Canadians, can we criticize them for not trying hard enough to get back Canadians from abroad? There are many Canadian players who are being wasted away with either not getting playing time or are playing in low divisions for not much money.

Obviously the TFC will help the national team. I never said otherwise. I am just asking to question to what degree?

Also we are really getting ahead of ourselves assuming that Montreal and Vancouver will enter the MLS. The Government completely ignored these two cities with great soccer owners. The Whitecaps are fighting the battle on their own for the stadium. No government funding and lots of opposition. Also perhaps MLS may cap the Canadian teams at one, it does not serve their interest necessarily to have more. They are not about helping Canadian soccer.

[pokey1]

I dont understand who owns TFC the CSA.

Toronto FC is in it for to grow their investment. If you guys think for a moment that they are there to develop all of your 28 National team players your dreaming.

They may in the next few years pick a few older players here and there that have good experience in the MLS or europe and can play on the first team. That is expected, but once the season starts everyones job is on the line starting with players and coaching staff. Results is the only thing that counts, if they can do it with 28 canadians, fine but dont count on it.

I would say soon after the first season your likely to see less Canadians on the first team as they bring others from astray, but you may see more younger canadians on the development squad that cannot get jobs outside of their countries, released, free transfers etc. this would not cost them anything and TFc have nothing to loose in signing him..

Toronto FC must and will Im sure, continue to look at Americans or Europe base players in either divison 1- 3 to move their first team forward by using the major of thier resourse of $$. after all The development team is at best a mimium 5 years away of having any book value for players, to the public and most of all to the team.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by puskas

We only have 3 semi professional teams. That is really poor when looking at even weaker countries who at least have a domestic league of around 16 professional teams. Then you look at how the TFC and Impact have more foreign players than Canadian players and the Whitecaps also have 7 foreign players. Perhaps the only thing TFC did was kill the dream of an all-Canadian league, which is the best way for Canada to become a World Cup regular. We do well on the u-20 level because in the youth level we have massive registration however after there is no league for these many talented players to go into. TFC is not near good enough solution. The only way TFC could have helped significantly is if at least half the current TFC members were from the national team. The Americans must be smiling because Toronto kills an all Canadian league, allows more jobs for American players and gives them more money.

The actual number of Canadians on TFC's roster, is a little lower than what I had hoped but lets give it time.

However, to kill a canadian league, a canadian league has to exist. There is no evidence of any interest for outdoor pro soccer in Canada outside of the current three cities that have MLS and USL. There are no owners (or anyone remotely interested in investing in soccer), no proper facilities, and no history fan support for pro soccer. At least not at a level that would make "PROFESSIONAL SOCCER" economically viable.

So what is TFC killing? The fact that a provincial association endorses and hails the emergence of an indoor soccer league as step forward should tell you all that you need to know about the soccer culture that exists outside of the current three areas that have USL/MLS teams. The fact that some people cant tell the difference between soccer and the bastardized soccer/hockey version is pretty much all that you need to know about the level of knowledge/interest and by extension, the prospects of a credible national league. Beside what is national league? Why isnt the CSL or CPSL not a national league?

Also, I strongly disagree ( as I have many many times on this forum) with the suggestion that "countries who at least have a domestic league of around 16 professional teams" is evidence of a step forward. A league, by itself, means nothing. Its strong clubs, that are well backed financially, that is the backbone of the player development system for national teams. As I said, a domestic league for the sake of a domestic league is pointless. If you are going to have 16 teams full of crappy marginal players then how is that going to make us better off? Yeah, there are many countries with teams that are entirley domestic, but if their good players are all being developed abroard and their domestic player have to have second job to earn a living, than how is that any better than where canada is at now?

You also mentiond that there is no league for these many U20 players to go to. Well, what is the USL and MLS then. Just putting a shirt that says Halifax Schooners on a player rather than Colorado Rapids is not going to make him a better player.

[Danny Boy]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

As I said, a domestic league for the sake of a domestic league is pointless. If you are going to have 16 teams full of crappy marginal players then how is that going to make us better off?

Just wanted to point out that we were closer to qualifying for the WC around the time of the CSL than we have been anytime since 1986.

[Gian-Luca]

I am pretty certain that TFC's ability to carry 3 extra US players is to be phased out over time - I can't recall how many years they have this extra advantage, but I don't think it is many.

The extent to which TFC should help the national team should improve ever year, up to a certain point (at which point it will hopefully not be our only MLS team) - certainly I expect the first year to be the year where the impact of TFC is felt the least. In years to come when the U20 players they have signed have gone on to becoming pro's instead of not playing at all (as has happened to many of our U20 players in recent years, even those on the teams that qualified for the U20) I am confident we will see the benefit of having TFC more clearly than we do now.

And yes, the dream of a Canadian league died prior to MLS in Canada ever being a serious possibility.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Danny Boy

Just wanted to point out that we were closer to qualifying for the WC around the time of the CSL than we have been anytime since 1986.

True but if the country cannot sustain a true CSL, another way must be found. TFC is the first step in that direction.

db

[Canuck Oranje]

The greatest value in having domestic teams (or a domestic league) is to provide an example of the opportunity available to excellent young players and to show them how they can realize that opportunity. If you look at small and successful countries in Europe, players for the national team typically come from big clubs around Europe and 2-4 big clubs domestically.

As for TFC, the club has yet to play a serious game. I don't think anyone can know what its final impact will be on the success of Canadian soccer. I think that we can agree that the club has raised the profile of North American soccer in Toronto already. That can't hurt the Canadian National Team.

If MLSE can show other prospective soccer entrepreneurs how to make money from professional soccer, I suspect we will see more opportunities for young Canadian players. In my opinion, the greatest benefit to the National Team will come from the development of young professional players so that they will attract the attention of the big brand clubs of Europe.

What you see today is not the end state. It is only the beginning.

[puskas]

Good points made so I will be patient and see the long term. I just have to wonder what would happen if say I bought a Hungarian First Division team and decided to only start four Hungarians and say seven Romanians. What does it say about our Canadian players that we can find so few that can play at MLS level right now (yes I know we got a lot of Canadians playing in Europe).

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by puskas

Good points made so I will be patient and see the long term. I just have to wonder what would happen if say I bought a Hungarian First Division team and decided to only start four Hungarians and say seven Romanians. What does it say about our Canadian players that we can find so few that can play at MLS level right now (yes I know we got a lot of Canadians playing in Europe).

When Chelsea was starting 11 non-English players a couple of years back, did people think less of the quality of English soccer? I know I didn't.

Additionally, the MLS situation is different in that we are working in a different financial reality meaning that we could easily fill the team with other Canadians but we simply cannot afford the likes of Stalteri, DeGuzman, Radzinski, DeVos and so on. If only.

[Canuck Oranje]

On the lack of starting Canadians, give it time. TFC is a new entity that changes the options for young players. European-based players have contracts that either make them unavailable or too expensive. The number of young Canadians on their development roster is a positive to watch over time.

That leads to my biggest beef about the MLS. I think the single entity concept needs to be converted to a salary cap structure. At least then individual teams could be creative as to how they build their team. The best-managed team then can benefit more from their management advantage rather than being dragged down to the lowest common denominator.

Acting like you can be a top league when you don't have the money to compete for players is hopeless. MLS should view itself like the Brazilian and Argentinian league in that your best players will eventually transfer to Europe. Individual teams need to position themselves to take advantage of the financial opportunity. Over time, as the MLS strengthens financially, players are more likely to stay longer. But to assume that you can attract domestic players with minimal salaries doesn't make sense.

[puskas]

Dbailey, Chelsea starting non-English players is not that serious of a problem because there are hundreds of other teams in England. With Canada there is only three. We have soccer registrations in the youth level that even England would be jealous about. However I don't feel we do a good enough job finding it because our country is big and spread out. I agree the developmental roster full of Canadians are our biggest hope.

[Stephen LaRose]

My first post here.

The first order of business for Toronto FC is to make a profit for MLSE: no more and no less. They can do that with a team full of Canadians, a team full of foreign players, or a team full of space aliens. Toronto FC can make a profit if they sell out every game, or if the corporation decides to get out of the soccer business and sell the field to Ted Rodgers for a new NFL only stadium.

Toronto FC's effect on Canadian soccer is going to be long-term, if they can make a go of it. It'll give a generation of young soccer players something to shoot for -- something they didn't neccesarily have after the NASL went toes-up.